BillyGoat

At the first of the year our little club voted to include Park Pilot memberships on trial basis. Since we’ve been thru a full flying season I have not had a chance to talk with our club secretary regarding how it has gone on his end. As far as I know nobody joined or renewed as a PP. If they did they don’t fly when I do.

The reason for starting this thread is NOT to debate the PP program but rather see how it’s going for clubs, like mine, that choose to integrate the membership.

Thanks


Edit: Realized I should have included the option for members of clubs that choose not to accept the PP program. [sm=red_smile.gif]

Rufcut

We have a few guys who like to fly the park flyers first thing in the morning when the air is really calm but they hold Open AMA memberships because they also have glow airplanes.

Robotech

My Feedback: (9)

We've never seen one. What do they look like? [sm=confused.gif]

If we find one we will accept them into the club.

MajorTomski

The PPP program apparently forgot that clubs might have leases with land owners that specify insurance coverage. Then they create a program that reduces the coverage.

I can't let a PPP flyer fly at our club if I wanted too. He doesn't meet the insurance requirements of my lease.

Oh and If you actually read all of the PPP literature it appeares that there never was an attempt to get them to join existing clubs at existing dues.

Just say no to two tiers

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

The “named policy” the club affords the land owner has nothing to do with membership levels (tiers) or for that matter whether a pilot has any insurance or even an AMA membership. The policy is primary for the land owner. He is covered regardless of the pilot’s membership, club or AMA or none at all. The pilots’ insurance level is of no consequence either.

Your reason is just an excuse.

Unfortunately the “excuse” is used by many to good effect to exclude others. Works quite well.

Wonder why the hobby stays in the weeds? You know first hand one of the reasons.

KidEpoxy

OP
I'm the only PPP dropdown at my club.
They really could care less, most never heard of it,
and I dont fuss over it.... it would be rude to rub it in their face that I send a smaller check out of state.
Should I choose the first of second option in the poll?



Robo
Only one I've seen is a chipmonk with a ballistic beanie [8D]


Sorry LCS, but I agree with Tomski
Could very well be that when the lease was signed it was for "AMA insurance" as a level rather than a brand. If another tier of muncie insurance has many similar features but has some dissimilar lower or missing facets it is not meeting "AMA Inurance" as contracted. Sure, logicly we can say for folks to open both up and sort which amounts cover which parties, but the bottom line is that the short answer says "AMA PPP Insurance" is less than "AMA Insurance" without stipulations and qualifiers as to whom coverages count and dont count for comparison.

Sure, the landowner is logically covered with the same levels in both,
but if the contract didnt specify coverage amounts then Adequate But Alternate Insurance (like PPP) wont be accepted.
(Hmmm, sound familiar that Adequate But Alternate Insurance is not accepted... kinda like at AMA clubs)

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Not allowing them to join your club? That sounds like not promotting our hobby. We had some stop by and fly. We welcome any PPP flyer. Look if we are going to let them left hand turning boaring warbirds guys join the club, we should let anyone.

Why would you not want to welcome anyone in the hobby?

Crash99

KidEpoxy

Crash
If a guy showed up at your club with a $5mil Hartford insurance card,
would you let him join your local club.... or is AMA Required

If a guy showed up with $x mil insurance from ZZZZ Ins Co, is that ok?
Why would you not want to welcome anyone in the hobby?


For decades AMA has been fear mongering the insurance to get a lock on flying sites. Now we hear that not just $2.5mil AMA insurance is ok, but $.5mil or $20k or $1.29 insurance is ok if it is AMA brand insurance.... however $5mil or $1.7Trillion Hartford is no good. The name was the lock, and now we dont have the Just One AMA Insurance but we have full & lesser AMA insurance and the name of the full is what was keeping Hartford out... which keeps the PPP Label AMA Insurance out too (as Tomski demonstrated). It has always been sold as a name, not a coverage ammount, to keep other insurances out.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

...so... how's that working out for ya?

Dave Olson

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

AMA is required. but that is getting off the subjuct. I will guess it is working out great for the clubs that love the hobby. Its not going great for those that have bad feelings over the PPP. I would like to see if there is any data on airplanes being shot down around the clubs that will not accept PPP members.

Here in Central Missouri there is not one club that will turn a PPP flyer away. Also being a club in a vacation area, We allow any AMA member to fly at our field without joining our club. See our club only charges $25.00 per year.

Crash99

BillyGoat

You would fit #2. Guess option one was worded poorly. It was to indicate nobody has joined under the PPP and the program has no effects what so ever, positive or negative.

Thanks for your input.

Edit: Changed wording of option #1

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

not a member of a club, anywhere, so no answer other than other

MajorTomski

From the AMA site. My lease with the city of oklahoma city requires the Club and EACH member posess $1M in liability ins.

THEY DONT QUALIFY FOR MY LEASE:

straigt from the AMA PPP site:

Open membership
$58/year
$2.5 million liability insurance
Accident/Medical insurance
Fire, theft, and vandalism insurance.
$2.5 Million Flying Site Owner's Insurance

Park Pilot membership

$29.95/year
$500,000 liability insurance
No Accident/Medical insurance
No fire, theft, or vandalism insurance
$2.5 Million Flying Site Owner's Insurance



Not a EXCUSE just fact in our case.

KidEpoxy

Wow
Wonder how much liability insurance that city wants
before they let you drive on city streets in your car.

Bob Mitchell

I think your initial sentence is an overly simplistic view of things, KE.

Another factor that is in play, I believe, is that if one shows a valid AMA membership card there is NO QUESTION as to the presence of insurance, the amount, what it will and won't cover, etc. That allows club leadership, site owners, site lease holders, etc to verify insurance coverage in a trivially easy manner. Otherwise it would be necessary for club leadership or site owners, or whoever has a stake in the field to verify that individual policies

1. are in effect and cannot be cancelled
2. Acually cover the holder of the policy for flying activity liability
3. Any conditions or exclusions that might affect the coverage for example: damage due to faultily assembled equipment, unsafe flying activities (read negligence or violation of some arcane small print about what is and what isn't covered, etc)

Accepting other insurance would require that the policy be verified that it exceeds or meets minimum AMA coverage levels, with no potential exclusions buried in the fine print that could leave the member, club, or landowner holding the bag.

AMA is a known entity. If I were a club officer with a site that was club owned, or a flying site owner leasing the land to a club I wouldn't want to have to deal with this.

I think this is no small obstacle.

Bob Mitchell

It varys state by state, doesn't it?

And you will be asked to verify that you have it should you ever be pulled over.

KidEpoxy

AMA insurance might be known,
but Aeajr (Ed), after about a year of being an advocate for and "partner" of PPP,
just now found out Free Flight Rubber would be an exclusion buried deep in the PPP fine print,
after suggesting Ruber for PPP.
But we are to assume the guys at my club know all the PPP limits & restrictions to keep their club insured with both AMA and AMA* insurance (or any other new AMA+ insurance or maybe AMA~ insurance muncie might come up with next year)

Yeah, you're right,
clubs shouldnt have to deal with this,
or they need to send their SOs to some Indiana Retreat to get all learnt up on AMA*.



* PPP

The Toolman

I guarantee you, that if ama ever gets all the flying sites locked in you'll see a big increase in dues or you won't be able to fly anywhere but your own property. And I bet the sock puppet will have something to say about that too.

Stickbuilder

None of the 3 clubs that I belong to allow PPP members to fly. We have large active memberships, and 2 of them have waiting lists to join. why would we allow incompatible models to join the pattern?

Bill, AMA 4720

The Toolman

We voted not to allow them without the $58 deal. We haven't got the time or desire to be cking that stuff all the time. As far as I'm concerned, ama brought this mess on themselves.

MajorTomski

The lease goes waaaay back and we are in the middle of a city park. It is FAR easier to just agree than to try to negotiate.

The whole point of this thread is a bit rediculus with respect to a PPP joing a club.

You can afford $30 to join AMA but not $60, but then you can cough up $100+ for a park flyer then pay my club $70 for dues?

Sounds like someone has no grip on reality.

abel_pranger

On 2nd thought, nada. I was following an OT drift.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Ok then, how about posting a copy of your lease? I'll bet I can find a way to include PPP...

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Toolman,

I am shocked that your club is that way. I have been there a few times and I thought your group was a good site to fly at. We welcome everyone up here and I would hope you guys change your minds. To my knowledge Eldon, JC, Sedilia, Columbia and Indian Creek welcome PPP members.

Crash99

The Toolman

Crash, nobody here wanted to mess with it, so thats how it came to be. We can't get anybody around here interested in flying anyway. We've had a few lookers, but nobody serious about flying though. They seem to think that the $25 year club fees are to high I guess. Heck, I spent $1,500 out of my own pocket last summer to buy us a nice new mower + I'm the one that has to mow it 90% of the time.


John Wells is our newest member an that has been 2 years ago....He needed someplace to fly when he was down here at his lake house (about 3-4 miles away)