Definitely agreed that fold-out plans are a waste, not only time but money, as printing and postage will skyrocket.

It costs a lot of money for AMA to maintain the stock of plans that they now do. Why should all members have to pay for the items that a few want, like they now do for the MA magazine? Cheap plans to those ordering them will be the same or worse than AMA's current advertising policies for the mag.

Flying Models sometimes has full size plans for electrics, HLGs, small rubber power, etc. Great magazine for the real modelers. If one likes CL the relatively new Control Line World has eons of plans. Now if you are a real modeler, 90% of those CL designs can be converted to RC, electric or glow or spark. They can be enlarged at Kinkos for a few bucks. The opportunities are bountiful.

Now there is an older quarterly magazine, that has no plans, yet it is bounding back in all areas, unbelievable, and has many ads for plans. Some are cheap, such as Wally Zorber's 88" 1911 Sommer Monoplane, $30, and some are very expensive at $100 or more. Many in-between. IMO, IMAA's new direction with High Flight mag. is now going to set the standard for a model airplane magazine, albeit just big birds. The spring issue is simply fabulous.

IMO, right now AMA is on the right track with the plans dept.

Bob
Yup.
Is it supposed to be something that help pay for member services,
or is it a member service that needs to have dues spent on it.
They sell Tshirts & mugs as a revenue stream,
but they subsidize site assistance and yute tier cause that is for promoting aeromodeling.
Is fostering folks to 'get into' plans building something AMA does,
or is it some revenue stream that just pays for the other stuff AMA does.

We gotta know what the goal is before we can say if it meets goals.



Hoss/CP
Regarding refining how a MA Free Plan could work:
What about a standard MA page that is high enough res to have Kinkos 3x it?
If done as a build along, the usual type of plan we see in a build article could start things rolling as the overview, and each 'session' could have a 1 page 25%-33% sheet to have Kinkos blow up... 33% for a 40size wing panel, 25% for the fuse, and just print the scale factor kinkos should use on the page. The restrictions I see right off are the standard paper sizes..... I inflated a low res plan at home and ended up running hole-less tractor feed paper thru my inkject as Custom 8.5 x 33" to fit a wing panel

Lots of places online have 100% plans for Spad or Foamie in DFX or PDF format... ready to take to kinkos.
AMA already is serving archived AMAInsider pdfs and AMADocument pdfs, just put the annual BuildAlong plan as PDF so folks that want the plan can Kinkos it and the rest can just look at the standard MA res pic of the plan in the magazine.


Americans used to say If there's a will, theres a way.
If we wanted to get a free plan to the members without costing AMA a lot, we can find a way to make that happen.

KE, if the drawing in the mag is full page, even 1/2 page...you can get good results at Kinkos. I did a FW 190 that way, the article was for .60 power and I sized it for a .15.
Hoss, if you ever get the chance, look at STUNT NEWS!! Every copy I've ever looked at is "a keeper".

Yes, it very well might.
Again, though, it would have to be something specific that interests me. Probably something electric, profile, 3-d type in the 15-18 oz range. Or, maybe something I haven't tried, perhaps a small EDF jet.

'Course, now, we'll have to argue about what and how big.

Has anyone other then myself, done some investigating on this subject? Go to the various sites that offer plans and compair prices.

Try RE-reading post #17.

In my eyes it does not matter. All of the other companies that I know of that offer plans are companies designed to make a profit for the company, AMA is a non profit organization, so there plans should be 20-30% less? I do not know the margin, but I have been in retail and other business to knwo that if you want to have a company live you have to make a profit, and the profit comes from a margin of the product.

It boils down to does AMA offer a the products that you want, and or is there enough demand for AMA to lower their prices of gthe plans? I guarentee you that if enough people "complain" about the plans prices and or a person talks to enough of the right people things will change, until then, it probably won't change.

JMHO

Jon

Aye-aye. This isn't some big business with thousands of lives at stake. We aren't trying to see if we can make the AMA "go under" or have to quit subsidizing other special interests just to make some of their aircraft plans more affordable. What Joe Blow charges for his plans has almost nothing to do with what is best for the majority. Last time I checked, the AMA wasn't exactly sitting on a goldmine of state of the art designs for any discipline. Some of those designs only a paleontologist could love.

Again, tell me why my dues should subsidize your purchase. Sell me on it. Why? Tell me what makes you special.

Yes, Hoss, both you and I have done some leg work investigating plan pricing. We are the only ones, that I can see.

I guess some of you feel the prices should be less, some of you feel they should get something for nothing and some feel they don't see a problem! How could this happen in the AMA Forum?

Besides making your complaint known here, how many of you who wish to see a change made, have talked to the people who could do something about this? Have you tried Ask AMA? I have found almost everyone in the AMA Cadre to be responsive to questions and have found the farther up the chain of command you go, the more responsive the people seem to be.

I mean, what is getting done here, other then commiserating with people of like mind or arguing with people who disagree with you?

Overall, I am afraid the plan business is not what it use to be 20 years ago. These are the reasons why:
1. Cost of printing.
2. Cost of postage.
3. People stealing the designs, and selling or giving them away on the internet.

I am afraid all of this will lead to less new and less testing, (servo, wood aren't cheap) of what is designed.

I feel the prices are O.K. it is for the most part an archival retrieval thing. Has anyone ordered any of the plans? Is the quality good?

Mike,

I don't build from plans so I'm not working a personal agenda here, and obviously I'm not speaking of the specific individual of whom you asked the question, but let me take a shot at selling you.

From the website, here's the AMA "Mission":

The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association of modelers organized for the purpose of promotion, development, education, advancement, and safeguarding of modeling activities.

The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication, protection, representation, recognition, education, and scientific/technical development to modelers.

It seems to me that building from plans is the single most basic "modeling" function that one can pursue. It's the real roots of the hobby, and from what I've read here and in numerous other places in the year that I've been a member, it's a skill that is rapidly declining in participation. Given the "mission" that AMA has laid out for itself, it seems to me that building from plans is a basic function that AMA should be promoting strongly. Maintaining (and expanding) a library of plans, and making those plans available to members at a reduced cost is an excellent example of just the type of things for which our dues should be used, I believe.

How can we be sure that selling the plans for less will force a subsidy? Who's jumping to which conclussion first?
Don't forget the tale of the "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf".......for after a while people will stop listening.

I don't know that AMA is in fact subsidizing the cost of plans to members. I guess the point I was making is that if that IS the case, I'm OK with it, and if it's NOT the case, perhaps it should be, given the mission that AMA has set out for itself.

Pigg,

A question is in order here. When you say that the plan prices are too high, what are you comparing them against? Ziroli plans normally go for around 53 bucks, and they will build as drawn. Most of Wendell Hostetler's plan will build as drawn, I don't know the average pricing though. So who's plans are you using as a yardstick?

Bill, AMA 4720

Those above "Mission" statements are just an item that AMA's great EC did for itself a few years ago. They are not actually a reinstatement of the purposes as itemized in the Bylaws. The mission points sound great, but basically nothing more than simple eyewash.

If AMA collects dues from the membership to provide operating funds AND THEY DEFINITELY DO SO and they sell any item including plans which does not refund some small amount of net profit to assist with said operating funds, then the AMA membership is subsidizing that particular function with dues monies. Dues are a certain fixed amount. No list of operations is provided for the individual member to check off how his fixed dues will be used in the various operations.

IMO, and just that MY OPINION the plans definitely should pay for that department and possibly even subsidize other operations. That makes it easier for me to recruit new AMA members to my club/s with lesser dues than if AMA's plans department should sell the plans at a less than department cost-basis which my dues would then subsidize. Let the individual desiring the service pay for it. Such could apply to several other "services."[:@]

Now if AMA's plans are too much for you, here is an option. For $18.00 per 12 month year, you can become a member of the fabulous "Flying Aces Club." You will receive a 6 issues per year newsletter, and it comes with 3 or more, sometimes 6, 11" X 17" once folded plans of models from 6" to 30" wingspans. Each 3 plans usually have 6 models, but sometimes with the big ones only 4. So let's say you get 3 sheets each newsletter, each set of 3 averaging 5 models. That is 18 sheets, 5 models per 3 pages. You now have 6 sets of 3 pages, each set with 5 models, which equals 30 different plans. 30 divided by 18 = $1.67 per plan.
The options and subjects are infinite.

Any plan can be either kinkoed or done on the breakfast room table to whatever size one wishes. It's easy. Easy to fill in some extra ribs and bulkheads, heavier wood here and there, make the aileron, flap, elevator, and rudder allocations. Determine where to plank or sheet, almost like original designing, but not completely. If you are into indoor electric, these plans offer a utopia of options. They are a modeler's world. I have hundreds and have disposed of as many.

Flying Aces Club, 3301 Cindy Lane, Erie, PA 16506

No phone, no email. Love it!

Join now:

It then boils down to more of a political discussion of how AMA should be allocating funds for promotion of modeling activities which is probably outside the scope of this spedific discussion. Don't misunderstand....I'm not indicating you're wrong or trying to push the discussion in that direction, it's as you say....a matter of opinion. The reason I made the comments in the manner I did was that I see it as less of a "service" for specific individuals, and more as one simple way to promote basic model building.......something that I'm aware a lot of the membership see as a rapidly declining art.

Emphasis (bold) added.

I not clear your train of thought here. Are you saying that if they "sell" an item and it does not provide a net profit then it is subsidized? Is "sell" the key word? If plans were free to members then they are not subsidized but rather a service provided as part of the membership?

And how exactly would driving competition out of the market further the art of plans building? Let's not pretend that those who make or supplement their living by selling plans would not be affected by the AMA offering below-market plans to its members. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

These sorts of discussions baffle me. Someone starts a thread because they feel something costs too much. Instead of asking for information about why it costs too much, they say "do it for the children!" Then others chime in about how nice it would be to get something for nothing or next to nothing, because we all have our challenges in life. Well, you know what? If somebody wanted to provide plans to kids, they could certainly do that. It wouldn't be hard to organize if someone actually felt strongly about it and would put the effort into it. All of the 57 kids in this country who have balsa, engines, covering, radios, and places to fly but lack plans could be given plans. The same goes for those who feel they deserve something for nothing because times are hard. Organize a plan trading group here on RCU. Gosh, that'd be so hard to do...

What it comes down to is that people enjoy complaining, but don't actually care enough to do the work to address their own complaints.

You're getting hung up on the language again, and ignoring the concepts involved. This is basic stuff. The plans service should be revenue neutral or turn a profit. If it doesn't do either of those things, it is costing the AMA more than it is bringing in. If it is costing more than it brings in, our dues money subsidizes the service. It can't be made any simpler than that.

Someone please look up the meaning of Subsidy.

Someone please look up the meaning of competitive pricing.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stick, why should the AMA charge you $50 for a set of drawings that cost them [at the most, man power included] $30 to print out and ship in what amounts to a 15 minute operation?
If nothing changes with the pricing, nothing will ever change with the amount of scratch building that you see. Out of 150,000 members, I seriously doubt that more than 500 of us are true scratch builders any more.
There's already a brotherhood of modelers who will give each other the shirts off their backs, including plans for just the shipping cost....so for me, this discussion is moot. [8D]

Right, because those numbers also reflect the full benefits that the person preparing them is paid, the equipment used, the facilities used, and the full cost of purchasing and preserving collections.

No, nobody here lives in fantasy-land. Nope.