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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Avaiojet I think what (almost) everyone is missing is that none of us were there with the radio, in the full scale, or behind the Tx of the rc plane. All the Monday morning quarterbacks here that think they know exactly what they would have done in any of these folk's shoes are full of it. ''Full of it.'' I don't understand that? Radio? A non issue because they may not be working. My comments are correct. First pass, just get out of the pilots way ASAP. Simply tap, on the shoulder, the R/C modeler that's flying the model airplane and he gets his model on the ground ASAP. Every runway has shoulders. He could land his model on that. Doesn't take much time or area to put a 3D model airplane on the ground. BTW. It's Monday morning quarterbacking that resolves issues and conflicts. Important issues and important conflicts, especially if it's done in an adult manner without bias. Investigations happen after the fact and one has to start someplace. When ''bias'' is in the equation, nothing gets accomplished. You just have continuous conversation and no agreement. Perspective? Why would anyone disagree, that the field should have been cleared immediately? This ''IS'' a good starting point for agreement. None of us were there. No body here can claim to know what they would have done in this situation. It is impossible to put yourself in the place of someone else, somewhere else, at a different time. Nothing wrong with talking about it... but without bias? Have you read the rest of the thread? |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: TexasSkyPilot 804 says: ''You obviously don't know what I'm saying. Or what KE and LCS are saying. If you did, you wouldn't be saying the crapola you are saying.'' Yeah, that's me. No grasp of the English language at all. Not only that, but I've never flown an RC plane, never owned an Extreme Flight Yak with a Gasser, and I've never taken off and landed in a confined area before. I've never even performed a torque-roll. I've never owned Helis either. Or....wait...no...I've done all that. :) I like the crapola I'm saying. Sorry you don't. I probably wrote it because I didn't like the crapola YOU were writing. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? So, let's be civil. Why don't you EXPLAIN to us maroons out here why a 3D plane belongs at a sport/scale field, why it can't take off on a short field when it commonly does so in the same distance at a regular field? Why it can't be flown away from the runway or off to the side in an area set up for that sort of flight? ~ Jim ~ :eek: 3-d planes and heli's belong anywhere a club, group of flyers, landowner etc. say they belong. If sport/scale/3-d'ers/helis won't work out among themselves how to get along at a field, it certainly is not because they can't. We have absolutely no problem at our club. We work it out rather than act like bucks in rut. Why can't the sport/scalers go find their own turf. Why can't it be flown away from the 3-d'ers and heli guys? Hmm?;) |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Please read my post again. None of us were there. No body here can claim to know what they would have done in this situation. It is impossible to put yourself in the place of someone else, somewhere else, at a different time. Nothing wrong with talking about it... but without bias? Have you read the rest of the thread? I'll guarantee you, one conclusion will be, that the people on the field and on the runway, including the operator of the model airplane, should have cleared themselves "immediately" after the pilot made his first pass. This is so obvious a conclusion and true, a child could understand it. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: tinner1 804, As soon as the average 3-d plane can be made to take off vertically like a heli, you might then have a point. I can fly my heli in my back yard. Not so my 50cc 3-d Yak. The point I try to make is it doesn't matter who is at fault. We, as modelers, are lucky not one was injured because the general public will side with the FS every time because in the publics eye we are flying ''toys''. I've seen videos of guys over in England hand launching and hovering a 50cc gas bird inside an underground mine. Could I do that? Wouldn't try. Point is, just cause it can be done, is that a reason to banish 3-d to the outlying edges of BFE, especially since most average 3-d pilots can't do any of the above? To bring this back to the subject, remember that the RC 3-d pilot in question was asked to be there. He was part of the show. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Avaiojet Please read my post again. None of us were there. No body here can claim to know what they would have done in this situation. It is impossible to put yourself in the place of someone else, somewhere else, at a different time. Nothing wrong with talking about it... but without bias? Have you read the rest of the thread? I'll guarantee you, one conclusion will be, that the people on the field and on the runway, including the operator of the model airplane, should have cleared themselves ''immediately'' after the pilot made his first pass. This is so obvious a conclusion and true, a child could understand it. Are you going to sit there and tell us that they were all wrong and you are right? YOU WERE NOT THERE. Sorry, you cannot guarantee anything. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: kmeyers ORIGINAL: Luchnia ORIGINAL: 3dsky I do not care what the Air boss said the RC pilot should have seen that the plane was coming down the runway and held off flying until the FS landed, the FS was landing so why would you take up the RC planeThe guy shooting the video had time to film the FS coming down the runway. ? After flying a lot now, I can see planes in my extended vision and am aware of much more than when I used to be flying, but I will admit that it is more important to watch your plane and when you are doing acro/3d it is imperative that you watch your plane and not take your eyes off of it. A few moments with your eyes away could result in calamity. With this in mind, why would it have been the responsibility of the RC pilot to see the other plane? That would be voiding the very thing instructors teach RC pilots. For me if there were so much confusion that day, I would have not flown, but that is just me. I am very cautious when a lot of chaos is going on and will usually just sit and watch until things calm down some. I have noticed when a lot is going on, that is an accident waiting for a place to happen. We are all still learning, learning is a life long process. LOL ~ Jim ~ ;) |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Avaiojet Please read my post again. None of us were there. No body here can claim to know what they would have done in this situation. It is impossible to put yourself in the place of someone else, somewhere else, at a different time. Nothing wrong with talking about it... but without bias? Have you read the rest of the thread? I'll guarantee you, one conclusion will be, that the people on the field and on the runway, including the operator of the model airplane, should have cleared themselves ''immediately'' after the pilot made his first pass. This is so obvious a conclusion and true, a child could understand it. Exactly! Yet- It's so simple that people still have to complicate it. ORIGINAL: 804 Why can't the sport/scalers go find their own turf. Why can't it be flown away from the 3-d'ers and heli guys? Hmm? We do, but some 3Der's keep flying in our airspace making people like myself nervous. If you watch near the end of my video, the guy flew right at me when I was trying to stay away from him. This is the kind of stuff that at times I have issues with. But that's another subject, and I know many who fly 3D who don't try to hog the airfield. The person who flew at me no longer does it after I had the conversation with him. The responsible 3Der's call out if they are high or low, like some of us sport/scale- scale people do. It's the ones who fly irresponsibly I have issue with, no matter what he or she is flying. Don't get me wrong, I like 3D and Heli's... just not in my airspace when they don't tell me their intentions. Makes common sence right? It's called communication. The lack of is most always the precurser for disaster. JMHO Pete |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
WAY too concise. You need to learn to ramble on a while if yer gonna post in here. LOL ~ Jim ~ [sm=lol.gif] http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...t/popcorn2.gifhttp://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...t/popcorn2.gifhttp://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...t/popcorn2.gifhttp://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...t/popcorn2.gifhttp://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...t/popcorn2.gif Pete |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Ok guys, let's have the discussion without the personal jabs and insults. There is no need to attack somebody just because you don't agree with them. Thanks Ken</p> |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
If it is so childishly obvious, why did all those adults not clear themselves immediately. Are you going to sit there and tell us that they were all wrong and you are right? YOU WERE NOT THERE. Sorry, you cannot guarantee anything. Yes, I will say "they" are all wrong and I am correct. At least about one particular point, clearing the field. 804, You hit the nail right on the head when you said, "Why did all those adults not clear themselves immediately?" That question will be pursued vigorously. The answer, however, doesn't solve the issue. There's a series of issues that need answers. In an investigation, you attempt to get solid answers for all issues. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: TexasSkyPilot I like the crapola I'm saying. Sorry you don't. I probably wrote it because I didn't like the crapola YOU were writing. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? So, let's be civil. Why don't you EXPLAIN to us maroons out here why a 3D plane belongs at a sport/scale field, why it can't take off on a short field when it commonly does so in the same distance at a regular field? Why it can't be flown away from the runway or off to the side in an area set up for that sort of flight? ~ Jim ~ :eek: The 3D guys have to be put in their place. I usually tell them I'm about to fly through their plane if they don't move. After their buzzed I come around again and say "Landing" and tell him again I think the wind is shifting me right in his path. Usually they get the point and FINALLY walk to the side where they were supposed to be in the first place. Why are 3D pilots that dense? Really, why? AMA needs to make some new rules before FAA does it for them. Regulate the 3D hovering events before their incidents start to really have a negative impact on the responsible sport RC pilot who tries not to interfere with other people flying. Is that civil? I'd put a Radio Shack 27Mhz boy ahead of an expert 3D pilot when it comes to field etiquette. Try to improve, please. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Hey Guys;
I have been in the back ground reading all the post on this incident and we have over look one thing!!! Our hobby is now in the hands of the FAA and the court system. What ever come out of this incident, I think will be bad for our hobby. I would hate to wake up one day and find "All RC Flying Has Been Ban In The United States" I have love this hobby for over 25+ years and have flown full scale aircraft for the past 15 years!! Should this had happen, no, but, it did and now we have to see what will become of this. As we well know, this hobby has lost alot of good flying site and a lot of flying sites are on the radar!! Now is the time for all of us to pull together and see what will come out of this. For the full scale pilots, if you have had any dealing with the FAA, you know how they can be!!! Fly safe everyone!!! Sonny aka jet22b |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
If you want an instance of just how unreasonable the FAA can be, go take a read on what they did to Bob Hoover.
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Wow, this dead horse is getting beat still?
There's only 15 different posts on it....................that are still going too. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy Let me try this approach: What authorizes a FS to force a landing attempt on a runway he sees (and in RX with) people standing on, rather than communicate to them to clear the runway for landing? There is no authorization ever to do something unsafe. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
what a bunch of bull crap!!!!! It should be clear that the rc plane and the full scale plane should not have been sharing the same darn airspace at the same time.the event director was wrong to allow fs ops.or he could have had better communications.as for the rc pilot there SHOULD HAVE BEEN A SPOTTER WITH THE RC PILOT!!!!!if the communication failed then the spotter would have seen the problem in time to avert the accident.end of story.our club has had fs aircraft schedule a flyby or drop parachutists at a set time.during that time ALL RC PLANES ARE GROUNDED!!!!the event coordinator stays in full contact until the pass is done or cancelled.
there was laxidasial concentration .anytime you mix the 2 together you invite trouble.yes I hope this situation is a good eye opener.the rc pilot is reasonale to be upset that an expensive craft was destroyed and they can go to legal action or arbitrate to reimburse the pilot.but he also needs to thank god that the fs plane didnt crash and kill anyone.Sadly this incident will continue on andrc'ers will likely get the negative publicity it doesnt need.think hard real hard and look at the big picture if your going to do this sort of thing. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: ira d ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy Let me try this approach: What authorizes a FS to force a landing attempt on a runway he sees (and in RX with) people standing on, rather than communicate to them to clear the runway for landing? There is no authorization ever to do something unsafe. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Well, my videos are back to giving tips on how not to cut your nose off to spite your face in your shop, or how to keep your shop neat. It's more interesting than this anyway, now that it's worn on this long.
Although I now have a strange craving for popcorn. That would be Oberst's fault, and I am pointing the finger! HE did it! HE did it! Cool Gif's! ~ Jim ~ |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Here's what my guess the conclusion will be, and we can await the outcome.
The pilot, that is, the operator of the FS aircraft, will receive no liability for this incident. The spectators and certainly the operator of the model airplane will. Just another bad checkmark for operators, like myself, of R/C model airplanes. Good thing I do CL. [sm=bananahead.gif] I personally have seen the lost of three great flying fields, because of the behaviour of people who fly R/C model airplanes. Two "were" Club fields. The third "could" have been. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot ORIGINAL: ira d ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy Let me try this approach: What authorizes a FS to force a landing attempt on a runway he sees (and in RX with) people standing on, rather than communicate to them to clear the runway for landing? There is no authorization ever to do something unsafe. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: 804 Why can't the sport/scalers go find their own turf. Why can't it be flown away from the 3-d'ers and heli guys? Hmm?;) |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: cloudancer03 what a bunch of bull crap!!!!! It should be clear that the rc plane and the full scale plane should not have been sharing the same darn airspace at the same time.the event director was wrong to allow fs ops.or he could have had better communications.as for the rc pilot there SHOULD HAVE BEEN A SPOTTER WITH THE RC PILOT!!!!!if the communication failed then the spotter would have seen the problem in time to avert the accident.end of story.our club has had fs aircraft schedule a flyby or drop parachutists at a set time.during that time ALL RC PLANES ARE GROUNDED!!!!the event coordinator stays in full contact until the pass is done or cancelled. there was laxidasial concentration .anytime you mix the 2 together you invite trouble.yes I hope this situation is a good eye opener.the rc pilot is reasonale to be upset that an expensive craft was destroyed and they can go to legal action or arbitrate to reimburse the pilot.but he also needs to thank god that the fs plane didnt crash and kill anyone.Sadly this incident will continue on andrc'ers will likely get the negative publicity it doesnt need.think hard real hard and look at the big picture if your going to do this sort of thing. to crash the party but had told the airboss he was going around. I really believe if the full scale had told the air boss what he was going to do this may not have happened. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Because the 3Ders will come to those fields too. Already thought about that.
They look for the audience. Sorry if the truth bothers you. If I thought for a second I could go to another field of equal quality and not have any 3D flying there EVER, I'd go there and never look back. Just curious, what's so amusing about that? Did you tghink I wouldn't be willing to be segregated for the greater good of the hobby? Perhaps you assumed I was not. I'd be willing to do whatever it takes to have a field that isn't compromised by these sorts of distractions and dangerous situations. After all, when the 3Ders start flying through the pattern with no warning we sportflyers land our planes in the pursuit of safety, for us and all in general. Why wouldn't we be amenable to a common-sense solution? Find us a field and agree to stay away from it, we'll be glad to go. Since this WAS our field first, it's reasonable that you find us a field that will accomodate us in the same fashion, that's reasonable, though you may wish to laugh at that as well. I have another question and comment or two. During a "Huckfest", do they stop things at lunchtime to allow a sportplane to fly a demonstration? I don't believe they even allow sportflying at a Huckfest. I'm not aware of any events where 3Ders are not welcomed if the regular/sport flyers come. In fact, they are given more latitude than any other form of RC that I've ever seen in 32 years of flying.... Maybe we need to start a thread on this. ~ Jim ~ [8D] |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
There is already a couple threads on that topic. If this keeps up on the anti 3D topic this thread may well get a visit from Crash99. He is the biggest voice for, "the safest style of flying", 3D.;)
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
First, if you see a full scale, get out of the way because they are flying nearly blind in a see and avoid environment
Second, if you're the private pilot that just screwed the pooch, don't lie to the FAA and NTSB in a weak attempt to defer blame. Third, if you have an encounter with a full scale, consider yourself at fault, for all full scale aviators are without fault. This is why they kill themselves and their passengers on such a regular basis. Fourth, if they have smoke on they are absolutely preparing to land, even when traveling at 150+ MPH. |
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