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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Sport Pilot, But to point out that around hear to never fly when you can see an airplane in the air means almost never flying. To not fly when you can hear an airplane, means flying maybe 20% of the time. At approximately 11:00a.m., the SA750 arrived at the airpark and made a low pass down the runway. The RC pilot was performing a demonstration flight at the time and was directed to move his model away from the runway as the biplane made its low pass. The biplane then flew around the traffic pattern and was presumably setting up for a landing. The RC pilot brought his aircraft back to the runway and continued his 3-D (hover) demonstration. As the biplane came around, the pilot apparently aborted his approach and decided to make a second smoke-on, low pass down the runway. I see only one way to end this debate....Sport Pilot and KidEpoxy, You BOTH are 100% correct in EVERYTHING you post and ALL the rest of us know NOTHING worth contributing to this discussion any further. You guys are PERFECT, never make mistakes, and will never put yourself in the position the FS or RC pilot put themselves in because you know the rules so well, abide by them 100% of the time, and NEVER make a mistake... Have a Great Day!!! |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Hardly a new issue, this same type of incident dates back to 1966. I think this particular one is getting so much attention because A: there was video, and B: we have the internet to discuss it for 8 pages. Here are some accidents involving full scale/model collisions and also full scale accidents caused by avoiding model aircraft:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X03877&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X15807&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X06127&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34096&key=0 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=42173&key=0 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=69222&key=0 I found this interesting- these five accidents were all the result of aerial searches for an RC model using a full scale aircraft gone wrong. They seem to be particularly deadly, as several have caused complete loss of aircraft and pilot/passengers. Flying low and slow near treetops is an unrecoverable scenario after entering a stall. Be careful if you ever attempt to use an airplane to find your downed model! http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X30280&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24058&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24000&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...14X40816&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34905&key=0 |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Tommygun Hardly a new issue, this same type of incident dates back to the 1970's. I think this particular one is getting so much attention because A: there was video, and B: we have the internet to discuss it for 8 pages. Here are some accidents involving full scale/model collisions and also full scale accidents caused by avoiding model aircraft: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X03877&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X15807&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X06127&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34096&key=0 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=42173&key=0 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=69222&key=0 I found this interesting- these five accidents were all the result of aerial searches for an RC model using a full scale aircraft gone wrong. They seem to be particularly deadly, as several have caused complete loss of aircraft and pilot/passengers. Flying low and slow near treetops is an unrecoverable scenario after entering a stall. Be careful if you ever attempt to use an airplane to find your downed model! http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X30280&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24058&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24000&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...14X40816&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34905&key=0 Tinner, as for as learning something goes...if you have learned how to be more safe from all this hash... fine... IMO, judging by the posts here, I fell confident that you and the rest of us probably already have a good understanding how to maintain a fair margin of safety...and that was not learned here. Yea, in hindsight we can all say we might have done something different when unintended consequences occur but that usually does little good...Funny but ironic I hope somehow we have learned that...but I doubt that too. So, we will probably keep on pecking away until things deteriorate even further... |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
I see many references to an "active" runway and I wonder how it could be "active" with people standing on it and other airplanes lining the sides of it. Five minutes after the incident the Air Boss informs the RC pilot that the FS had landed. There must have been another runway there that was used.
If I was the RC pilot I don't think that I would expect a FS plane to buzz the runway at what, a hundred feet". While pedestrians have the right of way, if one runs out in the street from behind a parked van and gets hit by a car, is the driver of the car at fault? If I was the RC pilot I would have to trust that the people running the show knew what they were doing and when I was invited to demonstrate my plane it was safe to do so. My feeling is that the RC pilot was the victim of a reckless FS pilot. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Well, I just heard about this, but in this vidio, after the crash, there is some info at around 2:00 min and around 4:50 min
1- The rcpilot says he didn't hear anything (I belive him, he was hovering maybe 6-9 feet away from him. the camera was 3 feet away from the pilot, you only hear the RC) 2- The airboss sais to the rc pilot he did WHAT HE(THE AIRBOSS) told him to do: fly away. And that he told the FS pilot to go left, and he did not: he buses the field. Now, there are rules and people that will decide this, but to me, it was the FS pilot fault for not going let WHEN TOLD TO, and the airboss' fault for letting this situation happen on the first place. This is of course a simplifed vision: the 500feet rule, that being the FS pilots home, etc... stuff like this is nerver black and white, it's all diferent shades of grey. Done for me, and whatever happens, I doubt it's going to be fair. Edit to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOEnn...eature=related |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Information sure does get messed up!!!
According to the original thread and person involved, there wasn't a first pass??? http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...&postcount=321 "As I stated prior I had no idea a full size was in the air. The Airboss said NOTHING !!" http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...&postcount=248 "Jim, I was involved due to the fact I never knew there was a full scale plane in the air, I was slotted for demo, Airboss said fire up, all is good, never a mention to full size plane in the air, never! Next thing ya know im told to punch & duck !! What the heck !!" http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...&postcount=162 "FG Bro's straight up, totally glad no one was injured or worse, I want nothing in return yes I was upset at first. Also, I had clearance to fly at this time of the demo slot, and was never aware of this plane in the air, nor was I told !! Till the second where I was told to basically punch It and duck," I think the report was distorted. I'll bet anything that the first pass that the report talks about is actually when the incident occurred and the 2nd being the landing. Surely the airboss and hopefully the rc pilot would have had enough sense to land after 1 pass had already been made!!!! ORIGINAL: NM2K Just think, if the organizers had chosen an R/C pilot that knew how to do something other than hover, there would have been no incident at all. Ed Cregger These pictures go to show how out of control everything got!! Right after the collision you have people walking across the runway and a full scale T6 taxying... http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3249/runwayc.th.jpg http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8...erunway.th.jpg |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
I agree with Ed.
I also noticed PLENTY of room off to the side where the demonstration could have been done, well away from the runway. Also, in the longer version of the video, you can clearly see and hear the AirBoss talk about the first pass and that "he thought" the guy was going around. He had the radio and he didn't MAKE SURE or communicate properly with the pilot. Who, by the way, later talked about being told something by the AirBoss (just before the collision), so he did have an active radio in the plane. The point I am making here is that there was indeed a first pass. Besides, the first post in this thread is made by somebody who had the information and gave us that much info. ~ Jim ~ ;) |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Naw, don't agree. On the long version you can see the airboss talking on the radio right before the camera pans to the left and see the bipe.. He's talking about the current pass. I don't see any reference to an earlier pass. Even so, if there was an earlier pass it doesn't excuse the airboss from not grounding everything!
If you listen, after the collision the airboss is talking to the bipe and he says "I didn't know that you were going around" referring to the collision pass... At the end of the vid the airboss is talking and says that the bipe didn't annouce the 'go around' and that he told the bipe to break left on that pass. As for being a different pilot and not happening. All you have to do is look at the links in the post above to see that this has happened before. ORIGINAL: Tommygun Hardly a new issue, this same type of incident dates back to 1966. I think this particular one is getting so much attention because A: there was video, and B: we have the internet to discuss it for 8 pages. Here are some accidents involving full scale/model collisions and also full scale accidents caused by avoiding model aircraft: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X03877&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X15807&key=1 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X06127&key=1 I know of one local incident. Fortunately the full scale pilot was able to avoid the model! & guess what, it was a regular sport/warbird pilot involved... |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Another thing, wouldn't the ntsb report show an earlier pass? This would go a long way toward showing negligence on either party so I would be surprised if it wasn't included in the report!
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...19X52836&key=1 NTSB Identification: CEN10LA487B 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Saturday, August 14, 2010 in Brighton, CO Aircraft: , registration: Injuries: Unavailable This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 14, 2010, approximately 1100 mountain daylight time, a Shpakow SA 750 bi-plane, N28KT, was substantially damaged when it collided with a radio controlled AJ Slick airplane, while performing a go-around at the Van-Aire Estates Airport, Brighton, Colorado. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The personal flight was being conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 without a flight plan. The pilot and his passenger were not injured. The flight departed Centennial Airport, Denver, Colorado, approximately 1030 and was en route to Brighton, Colorado. According to a video of the accident and multiple witnesses, the radio controlled airplane was maneuvering over runway 12. The bi-plane is seen flying from the north to south in straight and level flight when the radio controlled airplane climbs directly into the bi-planes flight path. The bi-plane was able to land without further incident. An examination of the airplane revealed that the left lower wing spar was crushed. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Lots of interesting comments
I see many references to an "active" runway and I wonder how it could be "active" with people standing on it He had the radio and he didn't MAKE SURE or communicate properly with the pilot. Who, by the way, later talked about being told something by the AirBoss (just before the collision), so he did have an active radio in the plane. The problem is that somehow the two guys that were in rx com prior to and a moment before the collision, some how folks want to blame the only guy without a radio (the RC pilot). How exactly do 2 guys talking on a radio end up with only 1 of them failing to communicate? I have a real hard time finding any way to figure the FS did communicate his actions on the radio to the guy standing on the runway with a radio "LocalTraffic this is Acro332, I'm going to land on that runway full of people and kill some of them. Over" "Uh, Roger Acro332. Go ahead and land on us, be sure to get Jimmy in the blue shirt, he is behind on his mortgage. Over" ;) |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Was he blind?? |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
These pictures go to show how out of control everything got!! Rightafter the collision you have people walking across the runway and afull scale T6 taxying... |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Yes, with a full scale T6, engine running, setting maybe 100 yards away, pointing straight at them and taxying..
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
All I keep hearing about is the danger posed to the FS pilot and passenger... what about the danger posed by the FS pilot to the people on the ground... there were far more of them when this idiot made his smoke pass. Lots of blame to pass around to everyone. Pilots loose their tickets for buzzing people. Whole situation was out of control and a clear example of what not to do at an airshow.
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Thankfully nobody got hurt
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch Another thing, wouldn't the ntsb report show an earlier pass? This would go a long way toward showing negligence on either party so I would be surprised if it wasn't included in the report! After doing a search on the incident and checking links (full scale and rc), I can't find anywhere that it was said that the biplane made a first pass then made the 2nd pass that struck the slick. The report seems incorrect and that the first pass was the one that struck the slick. Oberst was there on official business to collect information. I'm going to believe him over you, so sorry, but I disagree MORE: "Within days, as AMA’s government and regulatory Affairs representative, I was on-site to gather the facts and to interview the participants. As they say, the following is the rest of the story… " It's real tough to find this. It's the first post in this thread. ~ Jim ~ |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Hey Texas,
Where is the video, one of your backers on this forum topic want to watch!! I would really like to know where some of you went to school, if you cannot comprehend a written statement that has been provided in plain site, might want to consider going back. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: TexasSkyPilot ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch Another thing, wouldn't the ntsb report show an earlier pass? This would go a long way toward showing negligence on either party so I would be surprised if it wasn't included in the report! After doing a search on the incident and checking links (full scale and rc), I can't find anywhere that it was said that the biplane made a first pass then made the 2nd pass that struck the slick. The report seems incorrect and that the first pass was the one that struck the slick. Oberst was there on official business to collect information. I'm going to believe him over you, so sorry, but I disagree MORE: ''Within days, as AMA’s government and regulatory Affairs representative, I was on-site to gather the facts and to interview the participants. As they say, the following is the rest of the story… '' It's real tough to find this. It's the first post in this thread. ~ Jim ~ The video proves just the opposite of what you're saying. :D |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Defending Texas, you get a hole in your fight: (AMA statement overule your thought, or lack of comprehension of the situation)
Proof that this was not restricted air space for the modeller, nor the full scale. They both had right of way: "At least one of the modelers present cautioned against allowing concurrent ops; nevertheless, the air boss elected to proceed..." "At approximately 11:00a.m., the SA750 arrived at the airpark and made a low pass down the runway." Went on to say: "At approximately 11:00a.m., the SA750 arrived at the airpark and made a low pass down the runway. The RC pilot was performing a demonstration flight at the time and was directed to move his model away from the runway as the biplane made its low pass. The biplane then flew around the traffic pattern and was presumably setting up for a landing. The RC pilot brought his aircraft back to the runway and continued his 3-D (hover) demonstration. As the biplane came around, the pilot apparently aborted his approach and decided to make a second smoke-on, low pass down the runway. " So reading this, the Bipe passed at least 2 other times not caught on tape, nor shown on YouTube. Sorry, your arrgument just lost it's steam. Now where were we Texas, ah yes I want to see that flaming video !!:D |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
No, you're going by the initial statement. Post #1.
Do a search of all the other threads on this. Show me anywhere, in the full scale sites and the rc sites where the biplane made the first pass. Even on the video, if you listen, On the long version you can see the airboss talking on the radio right before the camera pans to the left and see the bipe.. He's talking about the current pass. I don't see any reference to an earlier pass. The guy flying the rc plane says that the FIRST time he saw the biplane was the pass with the collision. So, let's all take someones word for it that wasn't there over quite a few people that were... Furthermore, IF there had been a prior pass then WHAT HAPPENED ON THE COLLISION PASS WAS UNEXCUSABLE! After the first pass and according to post 1 the FS pilot announcing the landing the area should have been cleared!! But this didn't happen, more proof that the first pass was the collision pass. If there had been an earlier pass it would have been mentioned somewhere on one of the 10's of threads but it's not. Show ANY proof other than post #1 that there was a pass prior to the collision pass.. I can list a lot of threads with no mention of it. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
You will find out this was a planed stunt that screwed UP
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RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Well, the poster on youtube is only showing what makes the RC pilot look good. Don't believe everything you watch, sorry bro!!
Ever heard of video editing, can be done quite easily in this situation to sway the feeling to who's fault it is. I am sure the AMA guy ask for the whole thing, not the youtube version. I am going by what is written here, I am however willing to read what is posted on the AMA site, if you can provide the URL. I will not trust boob tube. Again, boob tube showed us only the part leading up to the impact, not the initial 2 pases that was stated in the first post. So, if there was another pass before what was showin to the world. The RC pilot is at fault, as the runway was not closed, it was still an active runway, so FS has right of way. Thanks for making me read the intital statements again, reenforces that RC guy and airboss is in a crap load of trouble. |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
Here's some threads and NOT just RC sites
Aviation News Web http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/excl..._203157-1.html No first pass The Denver Channel http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...37/detail.html No first pass RcGroups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1294538 No first pass NTSB report http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...19X52836&key=1 No first pass FG where the person involved said "was never aware of this plane in the air, nor was I told !! Till the second where I was told to basicly punch It and duck" http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...&postcount=162 No first pass Aero news.net http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-9fd3d5613c7d& No first pass etc etc etc |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Gooseman240 Again, boob tube showed us only the part leading up to the impact, not the initial 2 pases that was stated in the first post. So, if there was another pass before what was showin to the world. The RC pilot is at fault, as the runway was not closed, it was still an active runway, so FS has right of way. It makes a great deal of difference in whether there was an earlier pass or not!! You can believe that if the bipe made a pass (a low pass like in the vid or even twice as high) then came all of the way back around the pattern and then came by and hit the rc plane, it would have been all over the threads!!!! [:-] Added: If the first post is correct, then this paints the RC guy and the airboss in a VERY bad light!!!! & is VERY relevant to the event! |
RE: An Incident with Lessons for All of Us
ORIGINAL: Gooseman240 Hey Texas, Where is the video, one of your backers on this forum topic want to watch!! I would really like to know where some of you went to school, if you cannot comprehend a written statement that has been provided in plain site, might want to consider going back. Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4cqG7-7Vfk Enjoy! The guy likes to talk. LOL ~ Jim ~ |
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