RE: AMA
 

P-51B

Most AMA members have no idea of what the AMA is or does. They were told by a club that they had to have an AMA membership, and that was it. It is not really their fault.. nor is it the responsibility of the club to explain all the details. Most people just want to fly.

Once they start to realize what the AMA is, they start to see that starting a new organization would not be that economical, or easy. Who wants to give up as many waking hours running an organization the size of the AMA for free, as the Executive Council does?

All you can do is try to shed some light when the opportunity presents itself.

JR

RE: AMA
 

I was just curious, seems that even self insured, they make a huge profit. They to this point have been paying for a policy to cover us, which is about $15 of what we pay, so the other $43 dissapears into land, and other things they choose to put it into.

That adds up to$6,450,000 a year that they manage to piss away. I just have to wonder where it really goes. They say a lot is for the magazine, but there are enough ads in it to pay for it, or get darn close. Management and things like that cost too, but almost 6.5 million is a lot of money to just spend a year. That can't be going to the muncie site because that would have been payed for many times over by now. I don't mind paying the $58 so much, it just frosts me that they spend millions of dollars each year, and we as members will see none of what they do.

You have to remember, most are members only for the insurance. They don't care about muncie, they think the radio manufacturers will keep the freqs safe, they don't care about owning trade shows or museums. They just want to fly their planes and thats it. They need insurance.

It isn't much different than the EAA. Its about the same price, but they spend their money on full scale war birds that the members can't fly, museums in wisconsin that many won't ever see, and the guys running the thing get all the bennifits of the cool toys that everyone else pays for.

Thats where the rub comes.

RE: AMA
 

I don't think it's the $58.00 as much as people want the AMA to do something constructive with the >$10 million they collect.
Thats just the dues ... they also ask for donations and get them ... what is that for. Originally it was to build the building .... correct???

Well anyway, people just don't like to be "Taken" ... whether its $1.00 or $58.00 !

RE: AMA
 

Flyboy

The Audited Financial Statement is on the AMA web site in the Member's Only section. Any member can see where the money goes.

In the last statement, the magazine cost the members about $7 per adult, after revenues (including advertising) and expenses. Pretty cheap for a newletter that is required by the IRS. I doubt most club newsletters are put out for less.

The AMA Convention (trade show) actually makes a buck or two (very few) and is not a drain on dues.

Many things that the average member is not aware of are happening. BPL (broadband over power lines) has the potential of making our frequencies unusable. The AMA has input to the FCC and is monitoring the testing going on in that area right now.

Homeland Security, in a couple of it's many forms, has been in contact with the AMA. A new rule prohibiting autonomous flight, and input to the TSA about the transport of models on airlines are part of the ongoing dialogue there.

One of the members of this forum is making a presentation of a working spreadspectrum radio on 2.4 GHz within days to the AMA technical services.

These are just a few of the things the average member never sees. He only sees the results. And, of course, these are in addition to the normal functioning of the AMA that includes sactioning events. Not just competitive events, but fun-flys and the like, that allow clubs to raise money for their own purposes.

I guess one of my pet peeves is the image of the EC sitting in thier plush offices in Muncie, feet on the desk, thinking up new ways to ruin our fun. The truth is that they are UNPAID elected volunteers. Dave Brown did have an office in Muncie. That lasted about 3 months until the AMA staff needed the room. Now he has none. The rest of the EC (all 14 of them) shares one small office with two chairs, a desk and a computer. They are only in town for a few days a year. Most have businesses to run. Most are putting out upwards of $10,000 a year from their own pocket for the privelige of taking heat from an uninformed membership and trying to serve us.

RE: AMA
 

I guess my question to these people would be:

If another organization was put together to compete against the AMA, what would you expect for your $58.

RE: AMA
 

Why are we so uninformed? [>:]
When the AMA has a magazine that is OUR newsletter.[X(]

Almost like the question asked in "A Few Good Men"

"If the soldiers always obey orders ... and you told them not to touch him .... then why was he in grave danger ????" ....


Is it that "We Can't Handle the Truth" ??????

RE: AMA
 

I've recently been given a shot at a possible opportunity ( vague hey ;) ) but i think it means joining the BMFA to be allowed to fly where i'll be flying. our club is outside the BMFA and whilst i've done it's B certificate allowing me to fly at these places. if these events will require BMFA membership or not i've yet to find out, but our club has full insurance which we found and gives us a total insurance and membership cost per year of just £18.50, and yes some of our members moan about that too!

I've flown at other clubs ( some VERY! rule book worshipers ) and i'm glad we don't face the same thing you guys do.

RE: AMA
 

I curious, what organizations do other countries have (BMFA)? I think, but could be wrong, that AMA is for the states only. Also, this may be for the AMA forum, but are we covered if we fly in another country? Mexico or Canada?

RE: AMA
 

The AMA has a reciprical agreement with Canada. Your covered there, nowhere else I am aware of outside the US and it's territiories. There MAY be coverage on US Military bases outside the US. The D2 VP has Europe as part of his area, in addition to NY and NJ.

In most other countries, you would need an FAI stamp (sold by the AMA) and/or membership in the local national organization.

JR

RE: AMA
 

MustandFan

I say this without malice. It is of your own chosing. I have no special relationship with the AMA. I have no interest in every being an elected or appointed member of its management.

90% of the information that most want is in the Membership Manual, or the Club Renewal Kit.. both available on the AMA web site. Probably another 7% is on the AMA site in other locations, such as the Member's only section, or the documents list. An additional 2%, is in MA (which also duplicates much of the info on the web site).

1% I have to ask questions to get answers. I have found that most of the AMA leadership is more than willing to communicate. From what I have seen it is the folks that want to be combatitive that have a problem communicating with them. If you ask a reasonable question in a reasonable manner, you can get it answered (at least that is my experience). The phone works better than e-mail. Some of these leaders just flat do not have the time to address every e-mail, particularly the aggressive ones.

JR

RE: AMA
 

I wrote to him asking about his position on a few things prior to the last election he was part of. I just wanted his views. Instead of answering them, he sent me a rather terse note about not having included my AMA number in my communication. He wouldn't talk to me without "verifying that I was an AMA member." That was a little off-putting. Once I gave him the information he was dismissive about my questions, and when I pressed for more than a dismissal he became defensive. As I recall I was asking him about his opinion on what the AMA could do to encourage park flyers to join the AMA and look into their local clubs.

It didn't leave a pleasant taste in my mouth.

RE: AMA
 

In my experience the AMA does a very poor job in actually communicating its purpose to its members. Yes, the information is likely available. That's got little to do with actually communicating it, though. They're patronizing--always claiming to be fighting for our interests but rarely detailing how. I seem to recall the write up about how the AMA was cooperating with the FAA, and the big news about that was that NOTAMs would be available on the AMA webpage. Whoop-dee-do! I doubt anyone looks for them there, and they were readily available prior to that "accomplishment."

I don't particularly care about $58 a year. What bothers me is that the AMA acts as though it's doing all of us a favor. For the vast majority of us they're simply a secondary insurance provider.

If they really want to promote modeling, why don't the Nats travel?

RE: AMA
 

I understand what you are saying here JR, and I try not to be combative when I talk about AMA. I really don't care either about the $58. If I think of it as cheap ins, it is easy to justify. I realize the EC is unpaid, and they do take a lot of heat.

As I said before though, most people are there for the insurance only. That is a very small part of what we pay. To get that, we are forced to pay for things like the muncie site, museum, and everything else. Granted it isn't much for each of us, but the fact is, I would not donate a dime to something like the muncie site if I had a choice because I don't believe in it.

There were a couple companies that started competing insurance as you know. AMA is big enough and strong enough to say "you want to fly in a contest at one of the fields covered by us, you must belong". Therefor, because I want to compete, it isn't a choice. I can't belong to one of the others and be covered. They were put out of business by AMA for this reason. There were others, but simply stated, it was competition. AMA could have chosen to work with them, but they saw the writing on the wall. They would loose a huge number of members if they could get the insurance anywhere else. They would not be able to afford things like muncie.

Many of us understand that they don't have offices, and spend a lot to be on the EC. It is a thankless job.

The fact still remains, a lot are there just for the insurance, and yea, it may be a good thing for the industry to support the stuff they do, but many of us don't want to be forced to support some things we don't believe in that they do. Read that as "some things" and don't twist it to read "all things".

Remember the old saying, you can please some of the people some of the times, but not all the people most of the times.

RE: AMA
 

Most people who, "Just Want To Fly(tm)," have little or no idea of the kind of work it takes to provide their flying facilities.

In today's litigious society, in other words "sue happy," no sane person is going to allow their land to be used for flying without adequate coverage for themselves and everyone that uses the land. There's enough paperwork involved in keeping track of landowner coverage, club coverage, and individual members' homeowner's policies to keep at least one member of a club busy, full-time if they were to take on the task themselves. I am willing to bet that in most cases no person, would ever volunteer to spend that much time to maintain that much paperwork, sacrificing their flying and building time, their FUN time, so other people could have fun. It's just not going to happen. Insurance companies can cancel policies at any time for any reason, and policy holders can "forget" to pay the premiums. Most clubs have enough trouble finding officers as it is; imagine if they had to deal with checking up on each member's insurance policy EVERY time he/she flies to make sure the policy still covers R/C modeling, and is still in effect. NOBODY would be willing to do the work, and we would have NO flying whatsoever.

As such, the AMA has a tremendous "convenience factor" associated with it. If your club didn't "force" you to join the AMA, there would be no club, and no flying field. It's that simple. Site and club paperwork is reduced to a few simple forms, and the AMA guarantees that any cardholder is insured for the entire calendar year, so there's no question as to whether someone's homeowner's covers R/C flying or is even a legitimate policy. All this "dirty work" is done for a reasonable fee. The only stipulation is that you have to join.

RE: AMA
 

I am not sure I exactly agree with your thesis because most of the information IS presented but the general membership does not seem to read. I have been making a donation when I pay my dues since the mid 1980's. The AMA begun to publish the names of those who do in the last 10 years or more. Not why I was doing that, but a nice touch and acknowledgment. Last week, FOR THE FIRST TIME, I heard from someone who noticed my name in MA.

I also have seen proof that the club membership does NOT read the newsletter! Guess what complaint I and other officers in my club hear the most. Hard to communicate with folks who will not read.

RE: AMA
 

Good inputs from All...

Seems to me...the deeper the pockets we give ourselves (higher and higher liability limits)...the juicier
the steak for a hungry PI attorney.

We had coverage...and small perks..for a whole lot less.

As for the unpaid EC members....too bad. They took the positions. I have held, and currently hold a
club office. Never had a salary attached to any of them. You take the job to contribute to the good of
the organization...or you don't. It's the individuals choice.

I'm surprised no one has commented on the AMA's "hands in the air" approach to the rapid loss of fields
across the country. Muncie is secure. They made darned good sure of that!

How secure is your field? AMA fighting for you?



'Race

RE: AMA
 

With what I'm about to say, I will pre-empt with the fact that I am not at all an advocate for AMA, and it's anyone's choice as to what they do as far as having it or not. I do know for a fact that the organization has stepped in on more then a few occasions for my club, as well as seperate individuals(personal friends). Again, I'm just stating fact here. It is alot of coverage for $58 a year, even given the fact that is condsidered a secondary policy to those that carry homeowners and renters insurance.

Now....with most of us in the working class field(how else would we afford the hobby?) how much medical insurance costs do you have a MONTH? Some of us are a few hundred or more I'm sure....given that....AMA covers medical as a secondary as well I believe.... So......given it covers medical, as well as property damage, as well as legal where applicable...it's not to bad really. With another given here, to those of us that drive...!!!!....Auto insurance is SKY high as well, and DOES NOT come near the overall coverage that AMA encompasses as a whole.... given the fact that we don't fly our planes to work, there still is alot more risk involved liability wise with the planes.

I know $58 sound like alot to some, and not alot to others....there is a reason though, several actually, and we do have the choice. For me...it's a given....the club I belong too, and the friends I have need it to participate in what has become a lifelong activity, in a place that is structured, and insured, as well as having everyone around us insured.....and with the fact that I don't hesitate in spending several hundred dollars or more on a given plane or project.... $58 is a slim price to pay.....it just seems fair is all....I hope they don't raise dues....like everyone else I work hard for it, and want to get as much bang for the buck as I can too. Just my 3cents here is all. I'll be quiet now :)

RE: AMA
 

Actually, I have been on the board of one or the other of the clubs I belong to for a good part of my RC flying career, and have worked at getting and keeping both sites.

I do have to agree with the other stuff you said though. As much as I like to whine about the AMA, it is cheap insurance, and for the most part, it is a neccessary evil. Guess we should be more thankfull of what we have instead of taking it for granted.

Guess it is human to not really look at what they do behind the scenes. Muncie will always be a thorn in our sides, but they have actually done quite a bit for us that keeps us flying. Can't argue that fact too much. Guess I will just worry about flying. Its a lot more productive.

RE: AMA
 

I'm all-way's glad to see that there are some articulate, smart (wrong or Right) minds out here...I'm thankful for the AMA, that is for the good they do...But' to be completely honest when I see picture's of the NATS and what not going on out thar in Muncie...I feel kinda like we are footing the bil for a country club...sorry...

RE: AMA
 

MikeL

Oberdieck is one of the VP's that is very hesitant to express his opinions. The few times he has put things on the net it has been used to his disadvantage.. including by me. It's taken me a long time to be able to get any response from him. He IS very dedicated to the AMA and to modeling. He just has a difficult time showing it. Next time, try calling him. He does much better on the phone.

I used to harp about the VP columns containing little more than pictures of members and planes. Each of the VP’s will tell you the same story. They tried to write about things that should be of importance to us all. The members of the Districts have made it clear they prefer their picture as opposed to information, and so you have it. I went back in the AMA archives and found what they said to be true. The new ones try and get beat into submission. At one point I ran a poll in the AMA forum. Darned if it did not show that the members wanted information on clubs and pictures, as opposed to information on the AMA.

If you are expecting me to support Muncie as the home of the NATS, don’t. On the bright side the “Grand Event” is now starting to travel around the country. Maybe it will do what the NATS used to. It has a much more ‘hands on’ approach than the NATS for kids and adults alike. My honest attitude is that he have Muncie and are likely to have it for a very long time. No amount of P&Ming is going to change it. I look at the few dollars of my dues that go to Muncie as a gift to the AMA. It is probably as good a place as any to store the money necessary to get insurance. If we are lucky, it’s value is increasing. The only way I can justify it is as an investment.


JR

RE: AMA
 

I'm probably wrong in the eyes of many on this thread but I do believe that this discussion belongs on the AMA Discussions forum. Because of the vituperation and name calling on that forum I no longer visit there. I first joined AMA in 1936 but because of military service and other reasons my membership has not been continuous. The original cost was $1, about the same in terms of buying power as the $58 now. Of course being a senior by a good margin I save about $10 on my dues. Have patience, you will also arrrive at the same point too soon. I will never agree 100% with all of the actions taken by AMA but I do think that we must have some sort of organization to represent us before the government and the public. There is some advantage in sheer numbers. As far as Muncie and the museum are concerned only a few will be able to visit there. I belong to the Air Force Association but I never get to Dayton either.
The museum is a fine thing to represent what the pioneers in our sport began with and a direct comparison with what we have now because of their efforts. Someday it will take its place alongside other musuems dedicated to other minor sports and hobbies and people with no interest whatsoever in model airplanes will visit just as they visit museums concerning antiques, quilts, furniture and so on. Just tune into one of the most popular shows on TV - Antiques Roadshow. There are places for almost everything in this world. In addition to model aircraft I enjoy Gothic architecture, great art, music from blues to Bethoven and Barbershop. There are museums for almost everything under the sun. Why should we be different ? If you are unhappy with AMA, can find a place to fly and insurance is no problem just don't send in your dues.

RE: AMA
 

They spend $10,000 out of their own pocket to be our elected officals, prove it, we pay sancation fees to have a event, we could have a event without those fees and make money. Our club dues is $15 per year and our home owners is the primary insurrer. If the elected officals spend their own money then AMA dues should be no more than $25 a year and they can keep the rag.

RE: AMA
 

I have no intention of trying to prove anything to you. If you have genuine interest, pick up the phone and talk to your VP and see what he has to say about how much he spends.

What would you do for club insurance or landowner insurance? Your homeowners does not cover them. If you are an AMA member you can see where every penny is spent. Look at the financial statement. If you don't want to belong, don't. Simple, huh?

BallGunner

I agree, as I said in an earlier poste. The HQ and Museum have to exist somewhere. Whether we need the flying site is another matter.

JR

RE: AMA
 

Very true. I quit going there a long time ago, but you have to admit, this is the most civil AMA discussion I have seen in a very long time. Lot of good comments, and no name calling and slamming going on. Interesting info and a lot of good points.

RE: AMA
 

Suddenly, since the AMA action with respect to tail touching and turbines, there are AMA threads popping up all over RCU. I guess Marc has decided some leeway is necessary in allowing these threads.

Most of the threads in the AMA forum are OK as long as politics if left out of the subject matter. As soon as politics are injected, it's like real life... the name calling begins.

JR