Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Previously, in this forum, an early draft of a proposed AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program was posted in this forum at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.a...741&tostyle=tm

The following was presented at the last EC meeting in April.

************

Sanctions and Liability Committee Report

As indicated in previous reports from this committee. To assist this committee input was requested from Competitions Staff Steve Kaluf and AMA staff Carl Maroney. The report from Steve Kaluf suggests that the current sanctioning methods are working. And if any changes would be necessary, they could be implemented without any serious consequences.

A report was received from Carl and Larry Johnson resulting from a meeting I had with both gentlemen at the AMA IMS Show in Ontario Ca. In January 04. A copy of the report was submitted to the safety committee chaired by Don Lowe and subsequently found its way to the AMA District Leader Member site. This was before the S & L committee had a chance to review the report.

Although I commend Carl and Larry for an outstanding job on the report, I also feel it was inappropriate to allow the report to become public without the committees consent, which resulted in some premature questions from some of the membership.

The S & L committee has reviewed the report and are in agreement with many of the outlined points. But we also have some concerns about certain areas. For example we agree having a central figure at Muncie to oversee the development of a program, but with limited powers. We also agree on a committee to assist this individual. The committee also agrees with the need to inform and seek input from the membership through whatever media is available regarding safe practices. And to offer some kind of incentive program to encourage club and member participation.

Training is a major part of any program. And the following suggestion is to select persons from the ranks of AVP's C.D.'s and Leader Members to assist in a Universal Training Program to be held at Muncie. These individuals would then go into the field and be instructors to implement the various training programs at the club level. At this point emphases would be in R/C where the majority of the membership is. Consideration must be to the type of training for the different venues, i.e., control line, helicopters, free flight, R/C. At this point there would be a tiered training program implemented.

The report suggest a forum, the S & L committee suggest Safety Seminars to be held at Muncie and the various trade shows since the AMA usually has a booth set up. These seminars would be at no cost. Whereas a training program would require some kind of fee structure.

It would be difficult to expect a member that has been with the AMA for any number of years to accept a new formal training program. But it would be the
nucleus for the newer member to start out with the proper training and safety practices, thus eventually reducing the liability factor. The committee recommendations are as follows;
1) A need for an individual to oversee implementation of a program
2) A universal Training program for the different flying activities, with the emphases on r/c being that it is in the majority of the AMA membership.
3) Safety column in MA
4) The production of a professional safety video, 20 to 30 minutes in length and Printed material
5) An appointment of a EC VP to the current safety committee as laision between the EC an safety committee.
6) Proper investigations of all accidents with the who, what, when, where and why with proper record being kept for future evaluation.
7) Review the current safety code for improvement and consult the FAI code.

The S & L committee recommends that immediate action be taken to enact this program. And to nominate a committee to assist the AMA Safety Director appointed or hired. The committee also endorses this program with some modifications. A more detailed outline will be presented and forwarded to all the members of the Executive Council

In addition as District VII VP I have implemented a pilot program of making all the D-7 AVP's Chief Safety Officers with the responsibilities of supervising and pointing out any infractions to the current safety code. This is not a police action, but as an informative action with suggestions to correct a situation. I have also contacted a Video Production unit that produces videos for training and marketing for very large corporations. I have seen their product and compared to the IMAA video and it make the IMAA video look like a home movie.

I also had AVP Tom Ryan conduct a survey of at least 100 AMA members for
their response to the following questions;
A, Should the AMA have a safety program 88y 7n 5u.d.
B. Should the AMA produce a safety program 77y 13 n 10 u.d
C. Should the program be video or written text 91y 9n 0
It is to be noted here that 93% of all information is now received via the internet,
video or TV.
A more detail report will be forthcoming outlining the steps to be taken and will be
forwarded to all EC members.
Bill Oberdieck
Chairman
4/24/04

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Excuse me, but *** does this mean? Sounds like a typical RCU poll:

Do you prefer potatos or rice? Yes/No

You can't answer an either/or question with a "yes" or "no."

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Matt

That is an interesting observation.

I wonder how the responders interpreted the meaning of “program”. Was it as a program in the sense of a “presentation”, or a program in the sense of “a required series of steps to be carried out or goals to be accomplished ”? If the poll was administered, as written, without explanation, the answers to questions 1 and 2 might have been based on a misconception by the responders.

Mr. Oberdieck, in the paragraph, previous to the poll, uses “program” as “a required series…”. I wonder if it was clear to the other EC members what the results of the poll show.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Matt, you did better than me. I thought "88y 7n 5u.d." was modem noise!

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Does item 6) "Proper investigations of all accidents with the who, what, when, where and why with proper record being kept for future evaluation." raise any concerns about the duties of a safety officer and the responsibility of chartered clubs and/or CDs?

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

I have been wondering if I was the only one who read and considered the trap the AMA might be setting for the AMA.

Do you mean that simple implied fact that implementing this will enable AMA to say who may be officers and what they must do for your club to remain a chartered (read that as insured) club? I think it is a great error, but we seem to have been making a lot of those lately.

Let's look at #6 in a bright light because there are a great many more questions than answers.

Exactly what IS a "proper" investigation? Does that mean sworn statements? How do we insure that ONLY FACTS get recorded instead of OPINIONS?

Who keeps the record? How is this record of sworn statements going to help the AMA or anyone else defend against a lawsuit? Go with great care here because dragons DO exist. They live in lawyers offices.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

What the matter, Jim? 90 degrees and 95% humitity keepin you at home, too?
I wonder at this thread also. Are we getting into "Blame assignment" as opposed to "problem fixing"? That is the direction the whole country is moving the last few years, and it will ruin the hobby.
I would love to see the accident reports, and find ways to prevent reoccurance. But "Proper investigations of all accidents with the who, what, when, where and why with proper record being kept for future evaluation."? What constitutes an accident? Will this eventually extend to mere crashes?
The other thing that bothers me :
"Although I commend Carl and Larry for an outstanding job on the report, I also feel it was inappropriate to allow the report to become public without the committees consent, which resulted in some premature questions from some of the membership."
What does this mean? Mushroom time?
I was at the SAE heavy lift competition yesterday. The Wichita State U entry was an all-foam concoction. On take-off, the dihedral of the wing went from -5 degrees to +15. By the time the pilot lined up for landing, it was about +20. at that point, it went to +90, and the craft went in on the runway, scattering team members and judges, and barely missed someone (he jumped!).
Is that an "accident"?
(To be fair, the lake at Thunderbird field is WAY up, and to prevent losing a craft in the lake, the turns had to be tighter than optimum for these things, which imposed higher loads than desirable, but the thing was only carrying 8lb payload)

Roger

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Hi Roger!

Nah, that was just a comment I made while waiting lunch to be fixed so I could go fly. Second time this week! LOL Your observations are of the same vein as mine but from a different perspective.

Mushroom time? You are kidding, . . right? OF COURSE it is mushroom time! The unwashed pond scum membership should NEVER have ALL the facts. They couldn't handle them and everyone on the AMA EC is smarter than any of the membership who might ask questions. Now don't misunderstand because those remarks do NOT apply to all of those folks, just enough to provide a path to oblivion for our organization.

Remnants of my bad attitude, like old fish, hang around longer than the bad ideas.

BTW, I suspect that the definition of 'accident' is personal injury of any type. That is why I am concerned about these "investigators" who don't have a clue as to what is or is not important and to whom. I will never forget when I was in court hearing one lawyer tell someone that they had no idea what the truth was because the legal system had not determined it yet. Those dragons look worse every time I consider them.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Did anyone consider the fact that maybe the committee was attempting to place more responsibility on the individuals that might be involved with accident prevention, such as CDs, Safety Officers and the pilots themselves. Since the AMA theoretically can't mandate (police) everyone or club then it seems logical that the membership has to take it upon themselves not to stick their fingers in props.
Just an observation from what I read. I mean who causes an incident, the AMA!!!

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Uh, yes.
That is the point.
The AMA is falling into line with the legal quasi-profession, by trying to place responsibility everywhere but the spot it belongs, which is the durnfoolijit what done it (The nut on the sticks...)

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Perhaps, as I have been following the exploits of the Sanctions and Liabilities Committee, I missed something. IF I recall correctly, the charge of the committee is to make recommendations to improve the CD program and to review the liability of sanctioning events. I can not recall a motion or a charge, from the AMA president, who created the committee, changing the function of the committee.

It would be interesting to know how it has morphed into a committee dealing with safety in general and proposing programs to pursue goals outside of it’s charge. I certainly can not find any authority for the committee with reference to Safety Officers, or Chartered Clubs... but, then, maybe that's me and it does exist.

As a matter of fact, Dave Brown seems to have expressed the same concerns and this conclusion was placed in the April 2004 EC, Minutes at the end of the discussion about Sanctions and Liabilities: “Conclusion: The item was referred back to Committee to review the motion from February 2002 which was rescinded at the April 2002 meeting and address the issue of sanctioning only rule book events and listing or registering the other events.”.

It is also interesting to note that until fairly recently, there was no charge given to a safety officer. The safety officer was created at the February 2004 EC meeting and already it is suggested here that he be made much more than just someone the AMA can contact with important information. I guess, not surprisingly, the following document was penned on 3/31/04 and placed in the .pdf files on the AMA page as doc #537, “Club Safety Officer”:



“CLUB SAFETY OFFICER

This should be an appointed position, within a club. The appointment should be made by the
club’s elected officers.
The person chosen needs to be mature, knowledgeable, and able to express himself/herself
before an audience as well as on a one-to-one basis.
Duties include:
1. Pre-flight inspection of new aircraft
2. Pre-flight inspection of repaired aircraft
3. Analysis of causes for any crash, pilot error included
4. Preparation of Club field rules
5. Enforcement of AMA Safety Code
6. Right to prevent individual fliers from flying if their conduct or aircraft
not suitable.
7. Supervision of spectator areas.
8. Supervision of flight line and frequency control
9. Know address and shortest route to hospital, police, and fire department.
10. Location of field fire extinguisher
11. Names of persons qualified in first aid, CPR, etc.
12. Conduct safety classes as part of regular club meetings

Club Field Marshal

This should be an appointed position within the club. The appointment should be made by
the club’s elected officers.
The person needs to be mature, not given to loss of temper, able to communicate with
others in calm, reasonable manner.
Duties should include:
1. Supervision of field layout; parking, flight line, etc.
2. Greeting of new faces at the field and explanation of the sport and how to
become involved
3. Location of nearest hospital and police department
4. Location of field fire extinguisher
5. Supervision of transmitter impound area
6. Field maintenance crew supervision
7. Knowledge of first aid and location of first aid kit
8. Erection of temporary signs during flying sessions
9. Field clean up (litter, etc.)
10. Presentations to club at open meetings on problems
11. Ability to handle non-fliers who may disrupt operations
12. Personal knowledge of public officials to contact if needed (if field is a
public property) to handle problems.

PLEASE NOTE: Both positions require the full and sincere support of the club’s
elected officers if the job and the person are to be effective.”

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

I wonder how many clubs will be terrorized by appointed safety officers who have personal vendettas. This is NOT a joke but a serious problem in some places.

Lets look at one or two clinkers on the list. I could deal with everyone, but this is a good start.

Frank Flightpack cannot fly his new creation because he cannot pass the pre-flight inspection because the APPOINTED S.O. is his sworn enemy and always finds something to send him home over.

Worse yet, Frank is denied the right to fly because the appointed S.O. is his sworn enemy who believes his kind has no place at the flying field. Or the S.O. makes a rule that says "Frank does not fly here".

Shall I go on or does everyone see the danger the AMA is insisting all clubs embrace?

NONE of the above actions do a thing about keeping Frank's fingers out of the prop arc. NONE of the above actions do a thing about making sure that all the hidden glue joints were made with good quality glue. NONE of the above actions or any on the list will keep radio failures from putting models where they should not be.

Sorry Stalspin but this approach is NOT placing responsibility on any individual but it IS creating a dictatorship controlled by Muncie. I fail to see how that improves safety, but others on this forum have already pointed out that I am just a pond scum member and seem to be too stupid to understand that it is MY responsibility to provide the Vasoline.

I wonder how much we are supposed to pay this individual because we sure do work him hard.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

The AMA is reminding me more and more everyday of the guy out to sea in his boat, cutting a hole in the bottom to see what's on the other side.

The more rules and regulations they impose, the more old and new memberships they lose. It's nigh on impossible to get someone that will take a clubs' S.O. position because they know that anything they do will be condemned by someone, if not everyone. Let's have the AMA make it worse by giving the S.O a job that almost requires him/her to flunk a pre-flight or post repair inspection just so he will appear to be doing his job.

You know that soon to follow will be a mandatory monthly or quarterly report that will have to be filed with the AMA from all club Safety Officers reporting any and all actions taken by them with the club and it's members. After that, the AMA will require that the safety minutes from each club meeting be placed on file at the AMA H.Q.

We need a less, not more, dictatorial AMA if it wants to remain in existance.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Silversurfer

Please do not be mislead.

The EC has not endorsed this concept. Dave Brown saw it as being off-topic and sent the report to the Safety Committee for consideation and review.

Each member of the EC has a different agenda, different ideas and does things in different ways. Get to know them, or at least yours. Don't paint the entire EC with the same broad brush. When you see something like this that you feel is going the wrong way, contact the members of the EC and let them know your feelings.

Could be the safety video is an item that will get support. It is on the agenda for the July EC meeting.

The real shame is that things like safety, if they are an issue, should be addressed in Model Aviation, instead of pictures to massage district member's egos. When you read the column of your VP, or the other EC members, wouldn't it be nice to know what there concerns are and where they stand on issues? In my opinion, there is no way a report like this should slip in below the radar.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Boy did you say a mouthful J_R!

There was a study done in the late 70's by one of the political parties that indicated that most voters responded better to ads targeted to the 8th grade education level. That happens to be big on pictures. This leads to the problems we have now. Pictures stroke the egos of those shown and that gets the incumbents votes which is why almost all AMA business, like this, appears to be hidden. It is one of those Catch-22 things. Some of the VP's please the vocal (and hopefully voting - for them) membership rather than the thinking members.

However if safety really is an issue and not a straw man for something else then a better approach to communications within the AMA must be found. Now, back to the subject.

We could adopt some silly rule like no engine starts without using a helper which would go far to keeping digits out of propellers, but I assure you it would not work for everyone. That last clause is the real problem that some seem to be trying to 'fix'. Remember the old saw. You cannot make rules to stop idiots from doing things because they are astoundingly resourceful.

I think that a better approach to safety might be a monthly report in MA of the number of claims FILED (not resolved) by type for the previous month. This shows the membership the importance of safe actions rather than mandating some draconian measures that will not work as an attempt at solving some problem.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

First, a safety column is one of the recommendations. My opinion is that it is a good idea. However, when you look at the summary of claims, particularly on a monthly basis, I do not believe it will have much affect on the membership that would read it. I have included below the table that shows the summary for 2003.

There are several things that are striking to me. First is cost. If we figure 140,000 adult members pay for the insurance, we find that it comes out to about $12 per person. Second, note that all of the bodily injury liability claims have been closed.

What is not so obvious is that the 43 medical claims represent someone being hurt. We need to keep in mind this is the tip of the iceberg. Most injuries were never reported and were paid by other than AMA's insurance. I can think of 4 or 5 injuries at my club last year. If you take 4 times 2500 clubs that equates to 10,000 injuries, which is, admittedly, a WAG. In my opinion, trying to get the clubs and/or safety officers to keep permanent records on 10,000 accidents a year is absolutely futile, and will only foster resentment toward the AMA.

Educate: yes. Mandate record keeping: you gotta be kidding.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Conversely, I wonder how many safety officers will have to become much more strict (or quit the job) because the AMA places that officer centrally on the firing line when someone decides to file lots of lawsuits when an accident happens ? When the role of the safety officer was up to the club to define or not, he was (IMO) less likely to be named in a lawsuit. With the AMA changes and proposals, that officer now gets a big old "X" painted on his forehead.

Gordon

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

Gordon,
You have half of the equation down pat. The other half is the clear implied risk that the AMA will probably not 'stand' by the poor target Safety Officer when he gets sued.

As I said earlier, there are MANY things on that list that are not on the 'build the hobby and the AMA' side of the equation.

This moves me back to the 'educate' as a safety solution rather than regulate. That is unless we want to encourage the demise of the organization due to lack of interest and or income. But I have already admitted to a bad attitude.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

The AMA is going the same direction as the FAA, they are having lawers who have no clue in aviation or the hobby dictate how we are to manage our safety programs. Like the FAA programs, this "training" program will be infected be "politically inclined" members with alter egos who will use the system for personal gain. Which, of coarse, will lead to people leaving the hobby or saying to hell with the AMA and just fly without protection. why, because the AMA, unlike the FAA, has no regulatory authority. I can legally fly an RC plane without the AMA. So like was said, the AMA needs to lead, not force, clubs into bringing down the accident numbers. And having use become political paper pushers is not leading.
Scott

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

J_R, what was referred back to committee??? regarding sanctions/liabilities.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

J_R, another nit-pic item. the Feb 2002 motion that was recinded was in May 2002. not April.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

From the EC minutes of the April 2004 meeting:

Sanction & Liability – ad hoc (Appendix III)
The chairman thanked C. Maroney and L. Johnson for their work with the committee. He indicated that as a result of conversations with B. Underwood, D. Brown, and C. Bauer, he realizes the committee has strayed from the original charge. After going through the report with Council, Oberdieck requested an affirmative vote to accept the concept of the report. The president stated that he was not in disagreement with what was contained in the report however the original charge of the committee was to look into the liability generated on part of AMA as a result of sanctioning events, particularly Class C events over which AMA has no control over the rules. He requested a copy of the report be given to Don Lowe/Safety Committee.
The committee did present a report to Council previously that included what should and should not be sanctioned (proposed that AMA ‘sanction’ only rule book events—sanctioned and listed in contest calendar, and all other events would be ‘listed’ for purposes of the contest calendar). Also proposed at that time was the concept of contest directors (for rule book events)/event directors (all other events). The president noted that in the discussion last year it was determined that nothing could be done with the term event director until the bylaws had been changed, however we could do something about using the term sanction when using it in connection with Class C events. J. Gelwicks explained how liability is premised on the right to control. He also confirmed that by accepting payment for ‘instant membership’ at a contest, a CD is acting as an agent of the Academy but by removing the authority for a CD to do this, does not necessarily mean he is no longer considered an agent.
Conclusion: The item was referred back to Committee to review the motion from February 2002 which was rescinded at the April 2002 meeting and address the issue of sanctioning only rule book events and listing or registering the other events.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

stalspin,

You may want to nit-pick with your VP, or with Bill Oberdieck , who have a 30 day period for comment before the EC minutes are posted on the AMA site.

Edited to add: BTW Appendix III is the report that I started this thread with, and since the item is the subject of the heading in the minutes, I can only guess it was the item referred back to committee.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

J_R according to the schedule of EC meetings at the AMA web site the Date of the meeting was Saturday May 4th 2002 which coincides with the calender of 2002. so it appears there is an error in the minutes stating April when it should be May, Ho-hum. And the way I read the rescintion,( very loosely,) all sanctioned events will be governed by a CD until such time as "the committee" comes up with a better idea.

Question?? since there is a possible typo in that section of the minutes, would it still be legal??
inquiring mind would like to know.

RE: Update: AMA Safety and Accident Prevention Program
 

stalspin

You have an intricate knowledge of the AMA. I am sure you know, as well as I do, that the posted minutes are not official until approved at the next EC meeting. I am only surprised that those involved, i.e. those that have a committee would not review the minutes during the comment period. Kinda makes you wonder if those involved are attentive to detail.

I was aware that the meeting took place at a different time, but, I do not correct information I put in quotes. Certainly it is a technicality, but, does it make a difference to this discussion other than to point out that the chairman of the committee did not review the minutes carefully? I am not sure that serves any useful function, but, as you please.