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I know where I can get my hands on a whole slew of Glass Bellybuttons...If the major Political parties haven't claimed them all....

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All this wrangling and fussing and arguing is laughable. I know I have enjoyed reading this thread immensly.

First of my points:
EVERYTHING can be made dangerous. What about cars? They(and their drivers) kill more people than a million r/c planes ever could. Guns? Not for or against them, just stating that they too can be dangerous if used improperly.
Knives? Beer Bottles? etc., etc., etc. The list is endless.

Second of my points:
If not for research, technology, and forward thinking people, where would aviation be today? Didn't we put men on the moon? Send a remote satellite to Mars? Didn't we fly across the Atlantic in just a few hours reather than days?

Third of my points:
All of this came about because people pushed the limits and boundaries of rules and technology. If any of you think the AMA will prevent this effort from happening you need to wake up and look around. Get with the program or get left standing with a blank stupid look on your face as the world fades off in the distance leaving you to wonder what happened. I am all for technology and all it produces, even if it appears to present some danger to the civilian population.
There is inherent danger in any endeavor man undertakes. That's just life.
Now if some bozo tries to pervert some aspect of our hobby to wreak havoc then we just have to take him out and show him how we don't apppreciate his efforts and serve him up to the sand fleas and ants.

Ok, the floor is open for all who would take issue with my opinions and thoughts.
Have a ball, I've said my piece.

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[sm=thumbup.gif]

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Hi DAVE, that's a pretty amazing story. If this agent was indeed able to speak for all of UNCLE SAM, then your only obstacle to gain acceptance to this form of modeling is the AMA itself. I guess DAVE BROWN wasted a trip to DC if everything is already hunky-dory. The way I see it, FF is already a form of auto flight, and no self respecting FFer would ever release his missile in a populated area. The trouble here is even though you probably consider yourself as being a responsible practitioner of auto-flight, the AMA can foresee a day when this mode of control becomes available to every TOM, DICK and HARRY and then the insurance claims start rolling in.

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I don't follow this logic at all! Why would a terrorist use a model that can only take up a few pounds of explosive? He can load a rented truck with thousands of pounds and the terrorist driving it would cost less than a GPS unit.

I don't see any moves by the FAA to regulate UAV's in our sizes either. Looks like Dave jumped the gun on this one.

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Mr. Combatpigg
My name to you is Mr. Jones, you and I are not on first name basses and there is a very good chance that we never will be,
I would appreciate same level of respect that I gave to you.
As for your comment ( If this agent was indeed able to speak for all of UNCLE SAM,)

The agent was representing the U.S. government, this is his job he dose it ever day of his life, this is why he is call an agent of the U.S. government.
The last time I check the F.B.I. also known as the Federal Bureau of Investigation was a part of the U.S. government.
I feel very confident that if he did not have a good understanding of U.S. government's views on autonomous flight that he would have never told me that they don't care about what I was doing.

Now the FAA on the other hand has a legitimate concern about the introduction of UAV's into the US air space.
I can under stand that concern and agree with it 100% this is why wile working on autonomous flight I limit my self to local flights and follow behind flights wile I am sitting in the back of a pickup truck so that in the event of an emergency I can take over the control of the aircraft to prevent it from flying away and doing damage to some one or some thing on the ground or in the air.

(then your only obstacle to gain acceptance to this form of modeling is the AMA itself)

I have spoken to Mr. Dave Brown and to Mr. Bob Hunt of the AMA who are both opposed to autonomous flight in any form. They both feel that it is fine and safe to drive down the U.S. interstate highways with some sitting in the back of a truck or convertible follow behind a radio control model for hundreds of miles. Wile this may be safe under the eyes of Mr. Brown and Mr. Hunt it scares the hell out of me. How can they be sure that they are not flying past some unsuspecting modeler that lives next to the section of U.S. interstate they are on is not flying his or her model on there own property completely unaware that some one is flying a radio control model down the interstate and this model just happen to be on the same RC channel that they are on. So now this unsuspecting modeler could not only have his or her model crash, but could interfere with the model that is being flown down the interstate and cause it to crash into the windshield of an unsuspecting motorist.
This is safe and excepted practice under the AMA rules! You don't even have to notify AMA, FAA or local law enforcement that you are going to do it, just jump in to the back of a pickup and go.

Those of us that are working on autonomous flight are working towards gaining the acceptances of the AMA but to do this there will have to be a major change in the mindset of the AMA, I see this as a change of command starting from the top down.

Dave Jones
AUAV.net

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Mr. Jones,

IS this coming from the same Dave Brown that took control of the flight across the atlantic (which I beleive was a AUAV).

If so, is this not just a little hipocritical?

J.L.

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when it comes to the ama and hipocracy, one must always remember the golden mantra of the ec members/officers:

"do not do as i do, do as i say do."

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Sport_Pilot

Dave Jones's report actually makes me feel better. Now we have a first hand account of the fact that the government is following up leads about potential terrorists. Undoubtedly, most of those leads will be fruitless, as was this case. I wonder how many SCUBA shops, or truck rental agencies make such reports and generate leads. People are aware, and that is a good thing in my estimation, although it obviously creates inconvenience for some.

combatpigg has made his statements. He, in my opinion, has said "I have my opinion, don't bother to confuse me with the facts, it's not worth my time". I have talked to several members of the AMA leadership and one item that has never been mentioned is insurance. Throw enough garbage at the wall and some may stick? Is that the logic?

The initial ban was made in a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. Now the time has come to look at the new technology in a calmer environment and get it right. Dave Brown has suggested that the FAA will eventually require transponders. OK, so what? He has clearly stated that the technology is being advanced for commercial purposes, and that such efforts will require contact with the FAA. So what? Commercial uses are not acceptable at AMA chartered sites now, due to the insurance coverage available. It has nothing to do with autonomous flight. It does have to do with commercial ventures. DB has stated the FAA does not want them poking around at high altitude... along with any other models. OK, that makes sense. We don't want to create a problem for a full size aircraft. For those that really want to do this, permission will be required from the FAA. Still, nothing needs to be banned.

If autonomous models are, along with our other models, restricted to line of sight, with unaided vision, and additionally with an RC override, it appears that the most of the concerns are addressed. If there are other major issues, the EC will have to address them in a rule change.

It seems obvious that, in the future, people will be able to buy a commercially available autonomous aircraft for purposes other than the recreational uses of modeling. If you were going to use one for any purpose, legal or not, would you buy a commercial unit, or a pile of parts you had to assemble. If you wanted to fly a full scale plane with minimum fuss, would you buy a commercially available one or an experimental kit and build it yourself?

Contact your VP and request his support for the concept of Mr. deBolt's proposal.

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Alert.
I think there should be a ruling to ground all migratory birds, geese owls swans etc because of the autonomous flying they do .And it poses a tremendous threat to full scale flying. I wonder how the FAA would apply a control for that.

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excaliber

Is this the precursor of Bill Oberdieck's support for Mr. deBolt's proposal?

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don't have a clue regarding anybodys support for any kind of proposal.
I'm going float flying.

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As you well should, you do a good job of representing Bill's views here. Why not ask him?

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J-R, man what a day on the water, only one almost incident .
One of the 1/4 scale cubs was fast taxiing and a bottle nose dolphin thought the cub was a toy and wanted to play by nudging the floats.
Friend george decided no more fast taxiing and took off. I felt sorry for the dolphin though. course it could have been worse if a great white had showed up.
Anyway, as I said I have no clue to anyones support of the proposal. I'll wait and see how many candidates answer the call to post on these forums as De Bolt and a few others are requesting.

precurser, anything like a harbinger? tee hee.

I just feel hilarious today.

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Hi ya'll,
Especially combatpigg ( where did you find a moniker like that?)
Seriously> know that all the AMA rules that can be concieved will not heed in the least what someone might wish to do.
What rules actually do is to provide guide lines for intelligent law abiding
people to consider. When was the last time you drove faster than the speed limit?
Model Aviation has progressed to the present level because administrators did not see fit to apply any restrictions on advancements
some of which at the time did appear dangerous.
The current officials have restricted progress and many of us are disenchanted by that without having any desire to advance things, what
is done can stalemate us at this level.
In addition this first restriction establishs a precident that is basic for
more and more with time.
We do not need rules and restrictions, all needed is intelligent modelers
who will listen to possible problems and act to avoid them.
The safety rule in effect was ill concieved and effects much adversely
that it was not intended to.
Suggestion> read item #7 of the general section of the 2004 safety code
and carefully study each and every meaning.
Then read the modification of this rule created by our grouo and note how this mod still provides the desires of the current rule while removing
the short comings of this rule. The mod does not remove the intent of the
rule it simply corrects the short comings and removes the restriction.
The details of what our group is doing are lengthly, but would be happy to
provide you with them and more. Just ask me personally via Email. OK?
Best wishes,

Hal [email protected]

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HIYA, HAL! About the moniker, I tried for "combatflyer","combatdude","combatdog",etc., and they all got rejected at sign in, so in my frustration I typed in COMBATPIGG and it worked[X(]! My only reason for joinig RCU at the time was to find out more about DAVE McDONALDs' PIZZA BOX FLYER!
Obviously, I don't go back as far as you do in our hobby/sport, but I DO go back far enough to know about the AMAs' past lackadaisical approach to safety in CL COMBAT. The pattern was to wait for a case load of trajic accidents to pile up first, then pass a rule. The first rule was to make safety thongs mandatory, a real hi- tech solution to letting go of the handle. It only took 20 years of combat to get this rule in place. Several modelers through the years used safety straps out of common sense, but several modelers resented the rule and used every concievable argument and rationalle to oppose it. Fuel shut-offs were also another safety idea that was 20 years and several maimings too late. Another very low tech sloution. Is CL COMBAT safe now? The answer depends on what your tolerance for risk is, and that is what this thread is all about. I have spent enough time down range at WHITE SANDS with the most sophisticated equipment in the world to know that MURPHYs' LAW is always lurking in the shadows. I'll stick to my original contention that 99.9% of all RC crashes and bad landings occur within the confines of the flying field, and that it is my gut feeling that autoflight mode crashes are going to be all over HELL and HALF of GEORGIA! There are so many more ways to abuse this mode of control than with ordinary RC that I can't blame the AMA for not sanctioning it. Once all of the technical details and logistics for how the systems are supposed to operate have been worked out then I will be surprised if the AMA DOESN'T approve autoflight in the future. Thanks for explainig your view point in a calm, intelligent and non insulting way. That's what I tried to do in my first post, but got lured into the "slimy-ooze" by a couple of guys who live there. In the future I will try better to keep from getting sucked in to the unproductive BS, because I would rather stay on the list of people who you would debate with than be on theirs. Best wishes, Chuck Matheny

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So I guess AMA's wisdom is newly found then?



Well...You answer Is CL COMBAT safe now?

Look combat piggy my tolerance of risk has absolutely nothing to do with whether CL Combat is safe or not. Even if my tolerance of risk is great the safety still remains the same. Your point makes absolutely no sense! That was a pretty dumb statement IMO



BTW what level of schooling do you have?

Oh so we should be ruled depending on gut feelings huh? That is the wisdom you prefer I guess...now all becomes clear.

Actually it is I that has been drawn down to your slop not the other way around. Go back and read this thread and see the slop as it really is. Heck I would love nothing more than to pull YOU out of your Pig Pen.

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Anyone who wants to can go to my original post [16], which is directed at NO ONE, and then read your reply[17] which was nothing more than an attack at me for expressing my opinion, to see who did what to who first. You have got to realize that nothing that goes on in our hobby/ sport is ANYTHING compared to what is going on in the real world. I strongly suggest that you do a reality check sometime.

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all righty guys let's stop the mud slinging and get back to discussing this matter on an intelligent level, thank you.

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Mr. Littlecrankshaf
How can you expect some one to embrace 21 century technology that is still flying early 20 century control line models.
If it was not for the experimenters and yes to some level risk takers we would all still be flying control line yo-yo's, I learned to fly control line back about 1961 I was 6 years old and it was all that my Dad and I could afford at the time, I got very good at it but it did not take me long to get bored with going around and around in a circle doing wingovers and inside and outside square loops and inverted flight but it was still going around and around and round in a circle so we moved on to the next of level modeling.
God forbid we got into that dangerous part of modeling called radio control, We used stuff like the old signal channel super regenerative receivers built with vacuum tubes that used a 1.5 volt battery to heat the tube's filaments and two 67.5 volt batteries in series to drive the tubes plates, You could not recharge these batteries so you could only get a few flights (if you got any flights at all) then you had to replace them. The frequencie that we used was 26.995 MHz was very close to the CB radio band and the super regenerative receivers could not tell the deference between our transmitter signal or some near by CB radio operator so most of the time we crashed but we continued to make improvements to the systems then along come a system called a super heterodyne receiver now this receivers frequencie on 26.995 and still near the CB band but it could reject most of the unwanted CB signals.
However this was not the end of our problems the only control that we had was rudder only no elevator no ailerons and no throttle. In later versions more controls did come along but at that time we only had control of the rudder ( if you wanted to call it control)
To control the rudder there was a device in the model called an escapement it was powered by a rubber band that was wound up like one of the rubber powered models that you could buy in the dime store, the big problem with the escapement system other than at that time only having one control was that if you wound the rubber band to tight then the relay on the escapement
Did not have enough pull to release the cog and allow the rudder to move to the left or right ( by the way with this system you had full rudder throw one way or the other there was no proportional control like we have to day) and if you wound rubber to little you would run out of rubber band power before you ran out of fuel in the engine so what we had to do was to count the number of turns that we put into the rubber band and then count the number of times that you gave it a control signal so that you did not run out of rubber band power before you ran out of fuel.
One last point about this system is that on the transmitter there was only one button for control of the rudder, to turn left you would push the button once and hold for as long as you wanted to turn left and if you wanted to turn right you had to bush the button twice and hold it for as long as you wanted to turn right to go straight you let go of the button.
You would be amazed at how good you could get with this type of control system if ever thing worked correctly, The key word here is worked correctly. Then came along a system called reeds it worked very good for it's time but it did not last long and was replaced by the early proportional control systems that looked very much like the radios we have today but they used the same 27 MHz band and we still had problems from the CB radio operators then along came radios in the 72 MHz band and this and the new state of the art electronics have helped to improved the reliability of our radio control system to the level that we all enjoy today. ( with the exception those still flying around in the circles with the yo-yo's)
After this long winded explanation of my past history and involvement with RC modeling the point that I am trying to make is if we had not pressed on and developed the technology to let modeling evolve in to what it is today, and this was done by pushing the edge of the available technology just a little farther each time.
Had we set back and said that it is to dangerous to put all of this stuff in to a model and try to fly it with out a pair 55 ft wires hooked to it so that all that could do is go around and around around in a circle then we would still all be going around in that same circle today.
I will leave the art of free flight for a another time, But I will say that as a kid I did stay in very good shape chasing after them if the dethermalizer system failed as it did most of the time, And here it is over 35 years later I am still looking for more than one of my free flights that I lost and have yet to find.
Dave Jones
AUAV.net

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Yeah! What he said.

I am all for new things. We need to push harder on the grass roots to get the ball rolling a little faster. The tech. is proven, so let's get rules and start seeing what can be done.

Jay L.

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Sorry guys and combat pigg

Actually my post #17 was to make you see just what Mr. Jones has expounded on so well. The post was not meant to attack you at all, just your position in this debate...so I apologize if it seems otherwise.

FWIW it was you, MR. piggy, that actually made a reference to my education (post # 22) and MY screen name (post #18) first, so the later posts of mine are just deserts. You seemed to want to go there… so I obliged.

Anyway back to the thread… Thanks Mr. Jones and Hal for all of your efforts to expand our horizons.

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so refreshing to see biff!, bam! slam! and all the degrading calling back on the forum. I thought it was lost,

I'm off on vacaton have at it guys.

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Mr. Littlecrankshaf
And of the rest of you guys please call me Dave.
As for Mr. Combatpigg you will address me as Mr. Jones
Dave Jones
AUAV.net.

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I must apologize for my own inept abilities. I thought this was a place to come to get advice and offer opinions, learn about subjects, and have meaningful discussions. I see I was completely wrong. The back biting, mud slinging, name calling are getting the best of me.
Here's an idea, STOP IT! Lets all act like intelligent adults and offer our opinions and ideas and see how they are received without resorting to the aforementioned name calling and mud slinging.