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Age limit for R/C operation
Originally posted by Crashem As far as understanding what JRN said I DO I simply disagree with his premise that the local club is better qualified then the AMA. John |
Age limit for R/C operation
Quote by Crashem
"When I get fed up with the rules I simply fly in my back yard and drop out of the club been following this pattern for eighteen years now and it works for me" Crashem this is exactly what were talking about! When its not to your liking your just go away and do your own thing anyway after having made a lot of noise about new AMA rules. That is how I define a 'rule Nazi' AMA rules are not the same as club rules (The place where proficiency questions are properly handled, please note I said proficiency not age problems) And you may want to consider the next time you are hiding in your back yard that just ultimately some of those very same AMA rules you wanted may bite you even there. John |
Age limit for R/C operation
By having the AMA legislating this it makes the guidelines and rules uniform. If you leave it up to individual clubs you have no standard by which to measure any rating system and the rating itself becomes meaningless I stated that earlier. I'm surprised the two you missed it since you both use the quoting capabilities of this forum so liberally. If each club is left to its own to define the standards and guidelines under which proficiency and age related issues are regulated, then by definition you do not have a standard you have multiple standards which defeats the purpose of a standard in the first place. |
Anbody want to ask.....
Chuck Yeager his thoughts on hand eye coordination after the age of 60?
Cheers |
Age limit for R/C operation
Why must you have a standard for all clubs? What is so wrong with allowing the clubs to create and regulate their own rules, or to ignore the issue altogether. If a particular club does not have a problem, then why would you want to throw added regulation on them?
John |
Age limit for R/C operation
Originally posted by JWN Why must you have a standard for all clubs? What is so wrong with allowing the clubs to create and regulate their own rules, or to ignore the issue altogether. If a particular club does not have a problem, then why would you want to throw added regulation on them? John Have a nice day :) |
Age limit for R/C operation
I purchased my first plane 3 years ago at my LHS. Along with my plane he gave me an application for the local AMA club. I paid my dues built my plane and off I went to the field. The field was located near a golf course with 3 homes directly behind us. The owners of these homes had ben trying for a long time to have the field shut down. They were unsuccessful until now. When I arrived at the field there were about 5 people there, one of them being the guy from my lhs. Anyhow knowing that I had no flight experience he just stood back and watched me take off and fly right thru the window of one of the houses. Granted I should have asked for help but I had no idea that these things could be so hard to controll. Anyhow after this incident the field was successfully shut down. Lucky for me nobody was hurt.
There are alot of people like me. People that need and want help but are too proud or just too bashful to ask for help.In my case I just didn't want to be a bother to anybody. Do I think that there should be some rules and regulations set forth by AMA. Absolutely. Do I think it should be based on ones age?Absolutely Not!!! Periodic testing is not unreasonable. Actually it should be mandatory and if the local flying clubs wont do it then the AMA should get involved. Just my $.02 Thanks for listening. |
skill requirments
I think if you are going to have some type of skill requirements it should have nothing to do with AGE, although the higher percentage of people not meeting the requirement MAY be from the Senior pilots it is certainly not exclusive to them.
If there are going to be standards of skill then it should be something universal that all clubs follow , what would be the point if some did and some didn't, isn't a dangerous pilot dangerous no matter where he flys? The point of the skills requirement is to keep them and US safe. And the goal of the requirements should not be to ground the pilot but to recognize the problems he/she is having and work out a way to keep them flying, to find a speed and size aircraft they can Handle. I have a very Dear friend that is getting up in age, his skills are not what they use to be, he loves Model Aviation with a passion and would probably die without it, although he is not shown to be a danger , his approaches are not as predictable , his reaction time slower, etc. He has many, many , many aircraft of different power and speed but he has found slow and park flier planes, and has been flying them very well, he still gets out his Kadet Sr. and a few others he feels comfortable with. Perhaps its not a rule that is needed , but just some friends to help a slower pilot find the right aircraft for their ability , Theres nothing wrong with respectfully confronting a friend about a problem and help with some solutions, Yes it will probably hurt some feelings and may even make some angry, I am sure you will sometimes be told to mind your own business maybe even lose a friend, But sometimes thats what true friends need to do . Perhaps thats why so many people like to see rules in black and white , So you can avoid the face to face reality, so we don't feel bad about telling someone they just don't have the ability for certain aircraft. If there is a problem with ability and safety it needs to be addressed and fixed not banned and we don't need rules to hide behind. Obviously this is not true for every subject of safety. |
Age limit for R/C operation
This is quite the interesting discussion. Let's look at this from a certain perspective. The AMA pretty much has the rules in place that it does because of insurance. If the insurance carriers were not involved, there probably would be no rules. Face it, they are what govern us.
I we really want to regulate things like some purely incist, then we would have to undergo complete medicals with vision included. Vision is actually the most important part of the hobby. We can go as far as one wants to in regulating anything. I don't feel that this is necessary. I firmly believe that it is up to the clubs to implement such policies if they believe in one. Most people realize that they have some difficulty flying ask for help, may quit flying, or move to slower models. Of course, some may be resistant. Most clubs are doing a decent job on getting people up to the proper skill level and looking over themselves to see if they are safe. This whole hobby is about common sense. The vast majority use it when flying and in setting up guidelines. Let's not regulate ourselves out of having fun. The club I am involved with has 412 members. we have 3/4 of them soloed and they can't fly on their own until the club's check-pilots give them their wings. FYI - we have a training manual that most students use. It can be seen here: http://www.sccmas.org/pdf/trainingmanual.pdf Michael |
Age limit for R/C operation
if you really don't know why then we will probably never agree on this issue
That was certainly an eye opening explanation. Wow, I totally understand now. :rolleyes: John |
Age limit for R/C operation
This whole hobby is about common sense. The vast majority use it when flying and in setting up guidelines. But how is should it be handled when common sense has failed. Unsafe is unsafe at any age!!!! What drew me into this discussion in the first place was the comments posted that Age is not a factor... Stating that someone maybe unable to phsyically participate in this hobby because of age should not be automatically considered age discrimination. So my question is how do we as a group address this question... Losing flying fields and bad PR from avoidable accidents is unacceptable.... Not to mentioned property damage injury and or loss of life!!!!! Saying that it is up to the local clubs just is not a solution to me.. Does this then mean that a person must be checked out at every AMA club they visit (probably a good idea but lets see you enforce that one) Doesn't Europe have some type of national certification program/system?? I have a very Dear friend that is getting up in age, his skills are not what they use to be, he loves Model Aviation with a passion and would probably die without it, although he is not shown to be a danger , his approaches are not as predictable , his reaction time slower, etc. He has many, many , many aircraft of different power and speed but he has found slow and park flier planes, and has been flying them very well, he still gets out his Kadet Sr. and a few others he feels comfortable with. Dave, I'm very glad for your friend. But I have to ask what should be done if your friend did not "want" to realize his limitations and decided to bring his biggest fastes plane to the club for a quick flight!!!! You mentioned confronting him and possibly losing a friend. Without some type of "rule" what's to stop your friend from telling you or anybody else to go to Hell and fire that puppy up!!!! I'm not trying to regulate ourselves out of having fun. But again I could be a "rule nazi" :D (Thats my favorite) |
Age limit for R/C operation
Originally posted by JWN if you really don't know why then we will probably never agree on this issue That was certainly an eye opening explanation. Wow, I totally understand now. :rolleyes: John Took you long enough |
what to do?
Hello Crashem,
I think the following AMA safety Code rules that already exist could be used to take action by the club provided it is an AMA chartered and insured club. 3) Where established, I will abide by the safety rules for the flying site I use, and I will not willfully and deliberately fly my models in a careless, reckless and/or dangerous manner. R/C 2) I will not fly my model aircraft in the presence of spectators until I become a qualified flier, unless assisted by an experienced helper. Maybe Not. But I believe you point is valid, What do we do if someone we (the Club) or fellow pilots are struck with the problem of someone wanting to fly an aircraft we know to be incapable of flying ? Lets say for instance there is a universal rule that states you must demonstrate the ability to take off , fly, and land your aircraft to the satisfaction of the safety officer or club trainer or whoever. Pilot Crash Doe fails to stay in control during is evaluation or is noticed to be losing control on a normal basis , He has been respectfully spoken to , he refuses to look for alternatives or accept help and is going to fly anyway, What do We do, How do you ground him, By Force, Call the police, break his Props? I think we have to look at just how far we are willing to go . Gennerally i think all we would have to do is say they are not welcome to or allowed to fly here any more, the person would probably be angry but abide by the club decision not to fly or have help while flying. Having the rules is one thing, How to enforce them is another. What would you Do ? How does your club enforce rules? So far We have had very few problems, but if needed we can call the Park Rangers sence it is in a public park. |
Age limit for R/C operation
In this instance, if the club wanted prohibit the person from flying, and they insisted on continuing to try to fly, then the club could revoke their membership (clubs do have this right) and tell him he can no longer fly at the club flying because he's no longer a member. If he wants to fly as a guest, refuse the offer. If he tries to fly anyway, a club officer can call the police and have him prosecuted as a trespasser.
While this is all quite extreme, it is an option the club has. Whether they use it or not, is up to them. But, ultimately it's the clubs responsibility to enforce their rules. John |
Age limit for R/C operation
Having the rules is one thing, How to enforce them is another. I couldn't agree more!!! I think the AMA should set the rule or guideline like they do with the safety code but I think its the clubs responsibility to enforce them. I only want the AMA to set the rule so they are consistent across clubs. What would you Do ? I think I would first try to point out the danger involved failing that I'd lodge a complaint and most likly go back to flying in my backyard or find another club. How does your club enforce rules? You thats a good question. I just joined this one a couple months ago (Got bored of backyard...) Let me ask you this I went to a meeting with my TX two planes dues and AMA card.. Talked to the guys they all seem real nice grabbed the pin off the board and started flying. No check ride no questions can you fly especially since one of the planes was a trainner. simply started to fly no questions asked... I kind felt a little surprised since this was a meeting night and a lot of guys were there.... Thought for sure somebody would at least like to make sure I wouldn't crash!!! The only three rules I heard and I specifically asked where get the pin, have a restrient before starting engine and no more then 4 guys in the air at once.... This is one of the reasons why I don't think this rule should be up to individual clubs. |
Re: Re: Age limit for R/C operation
Originally posted by Hossfly When I made 60, of course I had to retire as an Airline pilot, which is the only legislated age discrimination that I am now aware of. Actually I was ready to retire, after driving USAF and AL machines for some 41 years. OTOH, I am NOT ready to retire from model aviation. Nearing 67, I will contest anyone on the ability to fly any RC within safe boundaries, now I did not say show or competition event flying, but within any normal routine, whether it be warbird racing, fun flys or whatever. My input to people that want some kind of legislated ruling that effects ALL people, just because of a few, is very simple. I just label them as members of a generation of spoiled brats, those that always found milk in the refrigerator, never had to earn their keep / (wings) every day, and wants the government/whatever to take care of them by legislating against all that crowd their world, the one revolving around them, like liberal democrats! One of these days you may very well be one of those legislated against. The tune changes at that point. There are bad pilots in every age group. The most prolific flyer in our club who flies only FunFly type 3D and anything less is boring for him has allready turned 80. Its not the age that makes the difference, its the individual. Paul Newman is still racing cars and I beleive he is in his mid 70's |
Age limit for R/C operation
If that's the attitude of the club, then it doesn't matter what rules the AMA makes. They aren't going to be followed anyway!
John |
Age limit for R/C operation
While this is all quite extreme, it is an option the club has. Whether they use it or not, is up to them. But, ultimately it's the clubs responsibility to enforce their rules. "It is of the utmost importance that we observe the safety rules of our particular sport. Everyone of us is hurt when carelessness causes an accident,and it most certainly hinders or endangers model aviation's progress. The safety rules are designed to provide guidelines that, along with common sense and good judgement, will ensure safe operations at the Skypark. It is to your personal benefit to make certain that no action on your part will result in an accident." scrolling down some... through the rules and such "It is the responsibility of every member to observe the guidelines set forth. Should it become apparent that an individual is not meeting these guidelines or that common sense and good judgement doesn't seem to be prevailing, the individual will receive a verbal and/or written warning from a Club official. If further infractions necessitate, the Governing Board may take immediate action to protect the interests of the SCCMAS, including, but not limited to, suspension of membership privileges or termination of membership. With such actions, the AMA may be notified of the infractions and intentions of the SCCMAS. New members joining the organization who have previously received letters of reprimand or have been dismissed from this or other clubs, will be considered for acceptance by the Governing Board. Their membership will be considered probational for 180 days, if accepted." Clubs should set it up so that they have the rights to remove people. For sign offs, we require that the pilot demonstrate takeoff and landing consistently, three times on the same day. Our full rules are at: http://www.sccmas.org/rules/rules.shtml Michael |
Age limit for R/C operation
If that's the attitude of the club, then it doesn't matter what rules the AMA makes. They aren't going to be followed anyway! makes it kind of hard to implement change without some type of ammunition to back up your case. Like I said in my first post if people new when to say when this would never be an issue. Since they don't seem too, we need another mechinism getting the AMA to front seems like at least some return on my $58 membership. |
Age limit for R/C operation
Originally posted by Crashem That may be true but without the rule or guideline from the AMA the standard answer seems to be we follow all the AMA guidelines inorder to keep our charter so if its not a guideline or rule then we don't have to do it makes it kind of hard to implement change without some type of ammunition to back up your case. Do you need someone else to tell you what to do before you do it on your own? I personally do not. In fact, I perfer that I'm given the responsibility to take care of matters on my own. I don't need, nor want the AMA to tell me how to run my club. I am a responsible adult who can, and will look out for the good and safety of myself and others before the embarrassment of one person. If the majority of the club wants safety rules, then they will create them. That, is all the ammunition needed. Like I said in my first post if people new when to say when this would never be an issue. Since they don't seem too, we need another mechinism getting the AMA to front seems like at least some return on my $58 membership. John |
Age limit for R/C operation
Hi,
Ok, now I get it. A newbie comes to the field wanting to get in the hobby. Joe Rulebook, Safety Director, informs him that he must get a physical, before buying anything, and send it to AMA HQ, where an ME will exam the results and certify that he is fit to be in the hobby. AMA sends back an authorization letter which allows the local hobby shop to sell him the model and equipment. After training, an AMA certified check pilot will evaluate his skills to see if he has the "right stuff" to participate in the hobby. And, oh yes, he will need to take another physical in 2 years and undergo another check flight. If he busts the flight, the results will be sent to the AMA and they will ground him and FORBID him from flying in the US. And don't try to get around the rule, a list is provided to every hobby outlet in the US to alert them of his status. Come on people, one of the biggest complaints against the AMA is all the rules, and some of you would like to make the most onerous rule of all that would be the death knell of the hobby. Who are any of you to decide who is unsafe or incompetent to fly? What qualifications do you have to judge anyone? I've been in the hobby 50 years and always have a good laugh when an "expert" of two years tells me how he knows it all: how this plane is junk, that radio is no good, etc. This same thing happened to Bob Hoover when two guys at the FAA decided to make a name for themselves's by claiming that Bob's performance was "weak", even though the FAA isn't supposed to judge air show performances. Their actions grounded Bob in the US for years, costing him millions in lost income. If you see someone you think has a problem, get a couple of friends to check him out, maybe YOU are Joe Rulebook and have the problem. If there is a consensus, talk to him as a group and express your concerns. Maybe his personal life is in the tank, maybe he's taking medication: find out HIS side, and then offer to help if you can. If he refuses and you have rules that he's not following and you want to kick him out of the club, fine. But realize he can still fly anywhere, except your field, and anytime he wants. It's better to help and keep and eye on him then letting him go out on his own. Again, who sets this up, who administer's it, who pays for all of this and how, and what kind of enforcement do you want, and who's going to do it. It just amazes me that there are people that want rules to cover every possible incident that could ever possibly happen. Fortunately, AMA realizes that MOST modelers are safety minded and have common sense, and those that don't are dealt with on an individual basis; you don't come down with an iron fist on everyone because of a few "problems", and I admire them for that. After all, it is, or was, a hobby. Regards, Jon |
Enforcing rules
Here is another wrench in the gears.
Our Club is on a City owned public park, Although it is the Club that maintains and built the flying site you do not have to be a member of the club to fly there, the Parks Rule states you must have insurance but dosen't specifically state AMA although it is the clubs rule to be AMA to fly. The safety guidelines are posted but the Park has not given the club absolute power over who can fly or Enforce rules even though it is the Club that leases the land. At least this is how I understand it to be. Talk about a Mind trap. But this club has been in exsistance sence 1962 at the same park http://members.tripod.com/~smrcc/index.html Sense there are non club members using the field its no different than a public swimming pool, the life guard has no idea who can jump from the high dive and who can't until they don't come back up or witnessed the fact they can't swim. We take the same chance at fly-Ins, Open fields and now park Flayers. The host club assumes someone knows how to fly unless stated or witnessed otherwise. I myself do inquire if I see someone who has that "awkward" look to them, even doing that I have seen several crashes because they were not ready for solo flight. Heres as good little story. Mom brings out her young teen pilot and his Kadet, He has soloed and pilots fine, 5 min into flight he yells "I don't Have IT" The plane is in free flight making large Circles, I respond to the Pilot and glance at his TX , Dead TX Battery ! , being the same brand TX as Mine and not having much time I grabbed my TX and removed the crystal and installed his, they were removable from the front, some controls were back wards but I managed to land it in one peace. The young pilot thought he charged it last week. |
Safety - It is up to you.
Some would like a proficiency rule, some don't due to the difficulty of administering such a rule. Some think the clubs should make the safety rules, some think the AMA should.
I personally think that all AMA charted clubs should have a proficiency rule in place. The club should be responsible for administering the rule based on guidelines from the AMA. Who would really get hurt with such a system? You can always fly, but in the interest of safety you may need a spotter or a buddy box, etc. I fear too many don't like the bruise to their ego such a system may inflict, especially if they get bumped down a level. I find it sad, but very human that people will put ego ahead of safety. The reason why I think proficiency testing would be useful is that many can determine on their own when they are being unsafe, but many cannot. It is the "cannots" that pose the risk. How a proficiency rule would help: My club does have ongoing problem areas with safety. But most seem to revolve around long time members that think they know better. Like the ones that get into a spin and announce they are being hit so they shut off their transmitter only to have the model go full throttle toward the pits. I run out and turn the tx back on and land the plane.. sheesh! Or those long time members that think they can fly and drink... yikes! I've brought up these issues before at the club but "How dare I (who has only been flying for 5 years) tell a long time member he can't fly safely." So, the long time pilot gets to continue flying in a unsafe manner. This is where I think a proficiency rule would help since it applies to all without bias. The spirit of the rule should not be to restrict pilots, but to offer mandatory assistance to those that need it. With or without rules, what it really boils down to in my opinion is that we ALL are responsible for safety. I try to take a proactive look at safety. If I see a pilot that is having a problem, while others gawk and wait for the crash I run out to the pilot station and ask the pilot if everything is OK (even if I don't like the pilot.) I seem to be the only one at my field that does this. 99% of the time the pilot just needs someone behind them to calm them down. I rarely have ever needed to fly the plane for the distressed pilot. Typically, the pilot is not embarrassed and thanks me for running out. For newbies, I always offer to do a safety check on their equipment. None have refused and I have often caught flight ending issues before they could occur. Etc. We are ALL responsible for safety, both ours and our fellow pilot's. |
Age limit for R/C operation
Why don't we all just stay home in bed. Pretty safe there except for the occasional stray airliner or asteroid.
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Age limit for R/C operation
Dave , I commend you on your reasoned thoughts and the story of that remarkable save of the young man with a dead battery.
John |
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