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RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Crash, meet Robo. Robo, Crash
If someone is flyig a stricker with a PPP membership is no big deal. We, the members of the AMA, ARE the AMA. The folks in Muncie are just there to keep up with the paperwork and safety regs. Making sure flyers are adhering to the rules of the AMA, or probably more correctly, the club, is caring for the safety and survival of the hobby. A member that knowingly breaks the rules is a suspect member anyway. Why would you want folks in your club that put their own thrills above the safety and good of the club and hobby? We don't have anyone like that in our club and frankly don't want any Muncie says (ppp faq #6) your club has to be the fun police for PPP. Robo says we all have to be vigilant. But you say you just want to cast that aside cause you do what feels good at the moment, regardless of insurance limits or AMA policy. You even go so far as to harsh the guys that choose to not join you in disregarding the rules. Heck, lets fly with Metal Props on our PPP Strykers after a few beers... Crash might endorse that cause if it feels good go for it: Its just rules and we dont need fun police fascists telling us to not drink no metal props no PPPstrykers/4oz RubberFF. Causing problems in a club is not taking the high road Nor is obeying the rules. Attempting to stop folks from fixing things that are wrong, is. Spending almost a quarter mil$ to get 1100 guys (that still are not actually in unsubsidized AMA) is wrong. Having real members and nonvoting serfs just to save $2 is wrong. Crash either you think the 4oz indoor RubberFF really does need to pay $30 more than a 2/60 electric, or you know that is wrong and are actually opposed to those of us trying to fix it on the grounds of Mark is a swell guy and nobody should try to fix what Mark did wrong. Crash, explain whyYOU say the 4oz RubberFF has to pay more, or do YOU think its wrong for the 4oz RubberFF to pay $30 more than the PPP, regardless of how swell you think Mark is. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
PPP was never meant to compete with, or interfere with open clubs. That it has is unfortunate, but as according to the poll, 12% having problems in their clubs doesn't surprise me. But there should be no problems.
It was easy for our club, and seems easy to me to make a decision, then live with it. You've got a 50-50 shot. Either accept PPP, or not. Although my club voted against it, I don't hold any grudges for the guys who shot it down. Realistically, none have showed up asking, and IMO shouldn't. If PPP is going to survive, it has to do what it says, and develop its own fields. If that doesn't happen, and pretty soon, it's done. I don't see anything wrong with trying to make it better, either. Nor, should we criticize other clubs for their decisions. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: MajorTomski Please read my post above. You miss my points entirely I'm really not interested in finding a way for PPP memberst to fly at my field, the same way the AMA leadership was not interested in finding away to bring them into the core of the hobby, the "2,400 chartered clubs" that they ingnored in creating the PPP. Funny…You have not missed the point... rather you are the point LOL. Run your club however you wish...silly excuses or not. To exclude PPP for any reason other than your above actual reason is BS. If you don't won't PPP in your club say it loud and clear. No other BS is needed. Regardless how you interpret what I say here I fully support your club or any other’s to be as they wish but BS is still BS. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
BTW
There isn't anyone more against AMA’s PPP and the way it was implemented and it’s ulterior goals than myself but there isn't anyone that would offer a PPP member a club membership with any of my clubs faster than I would and then truly welcome him out to the field to fly. I enjoy model aviation...hate BS. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
The reality is that there are no massive hordes of PPPers chomping at the bit to inundate our local clubs with their special membership issues or rules enforcement issues. In theory, the PPPers could create administrative hassles for clubs if there were enough of them. The truth is that there are next to none of them [PPPers] to accomodate anyway. The major stumbling block at some clubs would be the minimum insurance requirements.
I do see the potential for abusing the system, it would be very easy for a PPPer to bring his mainstream model out of the trunk when no one is looking.....take that notion and multiply it out until the unthinkable happens. With regard to that, it is very easy to see why any club would be reluctant to not allow PPPers and I wouldn't call it BS, just being prudent. There comes a time when it is OK to be self serving. Maybe if the physical limits of PPP planes was kept at a lighter, slower and safer level, their insurance limits could have been more in line with ours and AMA clubs might have been more receptive to them? |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf BTW There isn't anyone more against AMA’s PPP and the way it was implemented and it’s ulterior goals than myself but there isn't anyone that would offer a PPP member a club membership with any of my clubs faster than I would and then truly welcome him out to the field to fly. I enjoy model aviation...hate BS. One of many issues I have with PPP has to do with another club than the one we share membership in..........and while I would welcome a PPP member to it in a heartbeat, the controlling Board of Dictators would not. The great white fathers in Munchie couldn't/didn't want to deal with the issue of whether PPP members could join open clubs, and so passed the decision off to the clubs. While I'm all in favor of keeping control at the local level, the way I expect (based on some discourse with them as a group) them go on this is to exclude PPPers from the club. Much more is at risk than alienation of fellow modelers (bad enough); the use agreement with the site owning public entity states AMA membership is required, period. I don't want a discussion to occur between this BoD and the County Supervisor because a constituent, an AMA member, complained to that office that he was discriminated against by the club. Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Tomski, I assmume 500,000 personal LIABILITY on my homeowners policy and 500,000 from the park flyer program will be enough correct? You did say 1,000,000 total.
John |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Can the Park Flyer Program be upgraded to a open membership? If so How much?
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RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: jrjohn Tomski, I assmume 500,000 personal LIABILITY on my homeowners policy and 500,000 from the park flyer program will be enough correct? You did say 1,000,000 total. John AMA insurance is in excess of any other insurance, not in addition to. Ex: if you have $100K HO, AMA insurance would add up to $400K to raise the coverage limit to $500K. If you have $500K HO, AMA would add nothing to your liability coverage. Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: abel_pranger ORIGINAL: jrjohn Tomski, I assmume 500,000 personal LIABILITY on my homeowners policy and 500,000 from the park flyer program will be enough correct? You did say 1,000,000 total. John AMA insurance is in excess of any other insurance, not in addition to. Ex: if you have $100K HO, AMA insurance would add up to $400K to raise the coverage limit to $500K. If you have $500K HO, AMA would add nothing to your liability coverage. Abel John |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: jrjohn Abel, You are half right. As a licenced Insurance professional of 30 years I will make a correct statement. Yes, the insurance provided by the AMA's insurance company is excess. If I have 500,000 personal liability, My personal Liability willl pay the first 500,000 of the claim, The insurance provided by the Park Flyer membership (500,000) will pay an additional 500,000 after my personal liability is exhausted. Thus I would have exactly 1,000,000 of liability. My understanding of how it works comes from the perspective of a consumer of insurance products; I am not a licensed insurance professional or in the insurance business in any capacity whatever. That notwithstanding, I am certain enough of what I said to let it stand. Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: abel_pranger ORIGINAL: jrjohn Tomski, I assmume 500,000 personal LIABILITY on my homeowners policy and 500,000 from the park flyer program will be enough correct? You did say 1,000,000 total. John AMA insurance is in excess of any other insurance, not in addition to. Ex: if you have $100K HO, AMA insurance would add up to $400K to raise the coverage limit to $500K. If you have $500K HO, AMA would add nothing to your liability coverage. Abel From my reading of the policy, if the claim were $500,000, your example would be correct. This is assuming the Parkflyer insurance works like the general liability policy for open. However, if the claim were more, say $600K, the HO would pay the first $100K, then AMA would kick in the rest, up to its limit of $500K, for a total of $600,000. Again, if the PPP policy is like the open policy,(I don't know if it is), there is also a "sharing" clause, which states AMA's policy will share the costs equally, if any other applicable policy will also do so. So if the primary(HO) is $500K, and AMA PPP is $500K, and the claim is $600K, both policies would share, for $300K each. I am neither a lawyer, nor an insurance pro, so I may very well be reading all this wrong. I am going to call Muncie on Monday to clarify this, and will report back here. As an aside, I found something else curious (to me, anyway) about the insurance policy. The general liability policy is divided into two separate ones, $1 mil, and $1.5 mil, for a total of $2.5mil coverage. In both policies, PPP limits for aircraft are, 60mph, and Three(3) pounds, not two, as usually discussed. I wonder if this is a typo, or something else. I'll ask about that also. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Able, if your right, then that is one messed up policy, never seen anything like it in 30 years. For all practical purposes the policy is useless for anybody that has 500,000 of personal liability. because your saying if I have a 1,000,000 claim, and I have 500,000 of personal liability and 500,000 of park flyier coverage, in realily all I have is 500,000 total coverage. So of what use is the AMA insurance??
Nearly all of my customers have atleast 500,000, many of them have a million dollar umbrella on top of that for a total of 1.5 million, some more than that. Your personaly Liability will always be the broadest form of liability coverage, the personal liability policy covers nearly all facets of your personal life, not just flying a model plan, which in my opinion is the least of your liability worries. Your car, boat, cycle, snowmobile, jetski ect would be your biggest chance of a law suit. Your personal liability coverage will not have exclusions for things like "not following AMA rules" "not having your name in the plane" "reckless flying" ect.... I've done a lot of research on the AMA insurance. First of all you don't ask the AMA about the insurance. They are not licenced agents and have extremely limited knowledge about insurance. Legally and morally, they should not be advising you. Asking the AMA about insurance is like asking the plumber to perform your upcoming open heart surgery. I went right to the agent that sells the AMA their insurance. I forget his name, nice guy, for some reason I think he lives in lincoln Nebraska. I did my research about 1.5 years ago, for the reason of dispelling a lot of mis-truths and misconceptions about what the policy covers and doesn't. I'll give you just one example. A charted club has the landowner named as an additional insured on the AMA insurance policy. I was told by the AMA that if somebody, club member or not came to the flying field hurt somebody and was not an AMA member, the landowners insurance would be voided. This is absolutly not true. The landowner is covered regardless. You can't take his coverage away! All the bologna about making sure your club members are paid members of the AMA is really only in the AMA best interest so they can get an additional 58 dollars per person. It does't effect the landowner in any way shape or form. So when you really dig deep into this issue, you will find guys like the one that say you must personally have 1,000,000 of AMA insurance to fly at his club field because the lease requires it, has one screwy lease! I doubt it exists in the context he has described. the lesor would have no financial reason to give a crap if you as a modeler is personally protected for even one penny. Remember, the landowner or municipality is already covered as an addition insured on the main AMA policy. For those of you that wonder what coverage an additional insured has well....... it's premisis liability. john |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
John and 804-
I could be wrong, of course. After all, I have been married/divorced twice and shared domestic partnerships with other women, one for more than a decade. I am quite well experienced at being wrong! 804, I look forward to seeing AMA's reply to your inquiry. Illona is very responsive and pretty sharp, and I'm sure she either has or will find out the authoritative answer in short order. Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Talked with Illona today. Using ParkPilot insurance as example, I gave her this hypothetical:
$700,000 claim. Primary HO coverage, $200,000. AMA PP insurance covers remainder, $500,000, for total of $700,000. DISCLAIMER: That is MY understanding of OUR conversation. Anyone with concerns should call her, very nice person and helpful. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
Tnx, 804-
What Illona says (or, what you say she said) is good enough for me. Now I'll go rassle up some crow for supper.[:'(] Hmm..........with $300K liability from HO, $1 mil PUP and $2.5 mil AMA, I have $3.8 mil in coverage.........so sue me! To the best of my knowledge, the largest payout in history of AMA's insurance was $1.3 mil and that case involved a claim against AMA itself rather than a member at large. How much is enough? Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: abel_pranger Hmm..........with $300K liability from HO, $1 mil PUP and $2.5 mil AMA, I have $3.8 mil in coverage... ... How much is enough? Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
I did my research about 1.5 years ago, for the reason of dispelling a lot of mis-truths and misconceptions about what the policy covers and doesn't. I'll give you just one example. A charted club has the landowner named as an additional insured on the AMA insurance policy. I was told by the AMA that if somebody, club member or not came to the flying field hurt somebody and was not an AMA member, the landowners insurance would be voided. This is absolutly not true. The landowner is covered regardless. You can't take his coverage away! All the bologna about making sure your club members are paid members of the AMA is really only in the AMA best interest so they can get an additional 58 dollars per person. It does't effect the landowner in any way shape or form. I have repeatly said the same thing as the paragraph in ouote and was put down for saying it glad to see im not the only one that knows what's going on. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: ira d I have repeatly said the same thing as the paragraph in ouote and was put down for saying it glad to see im not the only one that knows what's going on. Bill, AMA 4720 |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: ira d I did my research about 1.5 years ago, for the reason of dispelling a lot of mis-truths and misconceptions about what the policy covers and doesn't. I'll give you just one example. A charted club has the landowner named as an additional insured on the AMA insurance policy. I was told by the AMA that if somebody, club member or not came to the flying field hurt somebody and was not an AMA member, the landowners insurance would be voided. This is absolutly not true. The landowner is covered regardless. You can't take his coverage away! All the bologna about making sure your club members are paid members of the AMA is really only in the AMA best interest so they can get an additional 58 dollars per person. It does't effect the landowner in any way shape or form. I have repeatly said the same thing as the paragraph in ouote and was put down for saying it glad to see im not the only one that knows what's going on. Nearly every hobby/sport/pastime, I've enjoyed in my life, including hunting, fishing, dirt biking, mountain biking, and now model airplane flying, has suffered from a common threat, the dreaded liability lawsuit against the landowner. If my paying the AMA fee gives him a sense of security to allow me to use his property for me to enjoy, then it is a small price to pay. Remember, too, that AMA coverage is good away from the club setting. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: ira d I did my research about 1.5 years ago, for the reason of dispelling a lot of mis-truths and misconceptions about what the policy covers and doesn't. I'll give you just one example. A charted club has the landowner named as an additional insured on the AMA insurance policy. I was told by the AMA that if somebody, club member or not came to the flying field hurt somebody and was not an AMA member, the landowners insurance would be voided. This is absolutly not true. The landowner is covered regardless. You can't take his coverage away! All the bologna about making sure your club members are paid members of the AMA is really only in the AMA best interest so they can get an additional 58 dollars per person. It does't effect the landowner in any way shape or form. I have repeatly said the same thing as the paragraph in ouote and was put down for saying it glad to see im not the only one that knows what's going on. As for the guy that says he will not let park flyer members fly at their club field. If the park flyer member has 500,000 of personal liability and a park flyer membership, with 500,000 (total 1,000,000 coverage) I don't see how he can refuse them. I'd get a lawyer if they discriminated against me. It would not take long to straighen that one out |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: jrjohn As for the guy that says he will not let park flyer members fly at their club field. If the park flyer member has 500,000 of personal liability and a park flyer membership, with 500,000 (total 1,000,000 coverage) I don't see how he can refuse them. I'd get a lawyer if they discriminated against me. It would not take long to straighen that one out Anyone who would pull a shyster minded stunt like that around here would find himself black listed and with his house up for sale within a year. |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: <snip> As for the guy that says he will not let park flyer members fly at their club field. If the park flyer member has 500,000 of personal liability and a park flyer membership, with 500,000 (total 1,000,000 coverage) I don't see how he can refuse them. I'd get a lawyer if they discriminated against me. It would not take long to straighen that one out I am somewhat in agreement with you..........meaning there is a qualifying condition: what does the landowner require in terms of personal insurance per the use agreement for the site? If the use agreement requires AMA membership w/o stating a minimum for personal liability coverage, then a club is at risk of a discrimination complaint/potential suit for refusing to admit PPP members. This poll shows to 16% of clubs (there may be more than one reply per club) will refuse to admit AMA members in the PPP tier............wonder how many of these checked the terms of their use permit (lease, whatever) before voting to exclude PPP??? Personally, I wouldn't push this issue if the club were operating on private property, but where public property is involved, I would. Public property is my property, and I don't care how much whining and sniveling somebody might make about their imagined squatters rights to it, no matter how long they have been there and excluding other citizens. Further, I would win.........there is more than ample precedent. Abel |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
I'm sure the PPP PF guys are welcome all over the AMA.
Just look at the warm welcome Muroc & his PFs got from the 705 FunFly guys :eek: |
RE: Park Pilot Program– Effect on clubs
ORIGINAL: combatpigg ORIGINAL: jrjohn As for the guy that says he will not let park flyer members fly at their club field. If the park flyer member has 500,000 of personal liability and a park flyer membership, with 500,000 (total 1,000,000 coverage) I don't see how he can refuse them. I'd get a lawyer if they discriminated against me. It would not take long to straighen that one out Anyone who would pull a shyster minded stunt like that around here would find himself black listed and with his house up for sale within a year. |
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