RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

If someone is elected 3 times they would have 3 years to find a replacement.
I am not for term limits but I can understand the reasons for them.


Changed some to someone

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Every EC member does have 2 designated appointees to fill in for them should they die or become incapacitated and the list is reaffirmed as an order of business at the Jan EC meeting.
Just because someone's on tap to fill in where the DVP has become unable to fulfill the term doesn't mean those people are willing to take on the full time responsibility for a full term.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Jerry-

You are right of course. I was presuming a small extension could made to a process already in place to cover other contingencies in order to offer a simple solution in the case of officer reaching his term limit. I'm sure that any solution/alternative could be gamed by a DVP more intent on preserving his empire than the welfare of the organization - based on past examples by McSnuze of D-V, and The Emperor Brown.

I tend to look for answers, not excuses. Just a hypothetical instance to ponder:

IIRC, you are an AVP in D-X. I don't know if you are one of Jim Giffin's appointees, or if so you would be unwilling to fill the D-X slot for a full term....perhaps it would be prudent and responsible for Jim to include that in his AVP selection criteria. At any rate, there at least 10 others in the district and it seems unlikely that none would be willing to accept nomination for DVP. Now take it a step further..............

Potential nominees by an outgoing term-limited DVP is not limited to AVPs, and nominator can be any Open member of the district. In the unlikely scenario that you infer (D-X VP cannot find a willing replacement), then it is up to members at large. Here off-the-cuff is how I would personally answer the quandary:

As I own a residence in D-X, I can readily 'move' from D-V to D-X via sending a simple address change to AMA and start receiving mail from them there. Then I can nominate a friend that I think capable and willing to take on the job. I'll pick a name........say Don Madison, as I think you must know him.

Now back to you. Where's the problem?

Abel

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Abel,

I didn't say there was a problem, however we can discuss the inferrences.
Rich Hanson mentioned several times for several years before he resigned to become the FAA rep that he would like to step down if someone were willing to step up and take the DVP seat. None were willing. Being an AMA DVP is a considerable investment both in time and presence at other club meetings/events in the district. We were very fortunate to have Rich as he was a pilot for a major airline and flew anywhere he wanted on a moments notice for free and therefore was able to attend almost any event anywhere in the district that he had the time to go to. Filling Rich's shoes is going to be impossible as the next DVP (Jim Giffin) will now be required to live within the district budget for travel and attendance at events must go way down. Probably a major reason that no one wanted Rich's job, you knew going in that you were going the be the DVP that was going to disappoint a lot of clubs that had come to rely on Rich's convienent travel ability.

I was Rich Hanson's #2 pic to fill in should he become incapacitated. I go to several events and belong to several clubs in San Diego. I also go to several events in So Cal, Utah, Arizona and Nevada, so have a fairly good feel for areas of interest in at least a small part of the district. I also serve on an AMA Committee and previously served on another, so have a working relationship with other AMA DVP's. Additionally one of my closest friends was a past AMA President and he instilled in me the notion that AMA is really a sum of it's members, so the members should be involved. I've tried to live up to the standards that Cliffie instilled and therefore follow what goes on in AMA and participate in AMA Leadership where I can. This makes me a natural fit for being a "fill in" guy for the DVP. I know what's going on so would require very little time to come up to speed, I'm interested in making AMA better and I already have a working relationship with current AMA leadership.
Now to the reality. I have a pretty high stress job. I'm the Integrated Warfare Systems Manager for Commander, Naval Air Forces, the Navy organization that "owns" all the Navy's airplanes and Aircraft Carriers. I'm responsible for any changes or modernization to the guns, missiles, radars or combat systems computers on our 11 Aircraft Carriers. I travel at least 1 week a month for my job. I also still have 2 of our 6 children still living at home with all the Karate, Piano, ice skating, dance lessons/recitals et al that that entails. I'm willing to fill in, if required, but doing even a full term would not allow me to represent the district in the way the members deserve and would also likely end in divorce. I'll do what I can for AMA, but they have to be third choice after family and job, and I think a very large portion of the people who could do a great job as DVP fit into the same category. They're willing to do what they can, but can't devote what's essentially full time to a volunteer job.

By the way, I know Don Madison well and think he'd make an excellent choice. So when will you be moving back to nominate him?????????

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Jerry-

We have much more in common that I might have guessed. I manage assets in the same general category as you do, but before you get them. Those you get have earned the adjective 'operational' and that's when they get passed from my domain to yours. I share a similar TDY tempo, and my primary office is on a point across the harbor channel from yours. I can well understand your job and family demands and priorities, and must say you are much more adept at time management than I to take on an avocational commitment like AVP. I have served in various club offices and chaired an AMA committee, but that was enough of stretch for me.

Still, I think there are enough AMA members with requisite qualifications and interest to fill term-expired DVP and other AMA positions, and 3 years is ample time to identify and designate them as candidates, presuming the outgoing incumbent makes that an agenda item of due priority during his last term.

The provision in the proposed bylaw change "if no qualified person is nominated within 30 days of the close of nominations, the incumbent will be allowed to run again for one more term" frankly just had my BS detector twitching. I read something between the lines to the effect that whomever added that provision was possibly motivated to build in an escape path around the general purpose, i.e., limiting terms of office.

Anyway, as to when I'll move to D-X in order to nominate Don M., probably long before having that privilege present itself. I'm already there as a majority time slice, and which domicile I call primary is a matter of convenience. As you doubtless know, some states levy taxes that others don't.............that is of no concern to AMA. To them I reside where my designated mail drop is.

Next time I see you, I'll introduce myself. Enjoyed the chat, look forward to more.

Abel

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Abel,

I sincerely look forward to meeting you.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

from experience, i can say, it will be pleasant, and worth your time. able is a #1 guy.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Abel,

Another of my hobbies is home brewing beer. I just bottled an Irish Red ale that should be good to go in a couple weeks. Mongo, you're welcome too..........:)

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

if i can get out to cali again, i will.
it is truly a shame i never acquired the taste for beer and spirits, cause i sure get lots of similar invites<G>

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Well hecky darn! I return after a couple of days out or reach of a net portal, and find somebody's said something nice about me and I'm invited to sample some hand-crafted brewski. That's kinda disconcerting ........stuff that only seems to happen when a guy goes tango uniform! Jerry, I'll hail you on another channel 'cause I don't want RCKen rapping my knuckles for going OT, and mongo, tnx and now back to regular (i.e., curmudgeonly) programming.:D

Back to topic at least in a broad sense, I'd like to be involved in more discussions like this one and participation by Jerry illustrates why. I suggested a simple resolution to an issue being discussed, and it seemed a pat answer. Jerry added some very pertinent insights, some passed on from his association with Rich Hanson whom I know and have great respect for, that made it clear the situation isn't at all such a simple matter to resolve. Being posited as an AVP contributed in good part to value he added to the discussion.

It is my understanding that DVPs are (or were) constrained by policy as to what they can say in a public forum like this. I don't know if that was personal policy (ala Dave Brown) or AMA policy, but it does/did exist. That seems to leave AVPs closest to the throne of any folks we can discuss issues appropriate to this particular discussion group in near real time, open session.

Jerry and Bill Malvey are the only AMA AVPs I am aware of that post here, and both are in D-X. I appreciate having them here, and wonder if any other districts are represented. So...........does your district have such a presence here?

Abel

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Here is the wording of the proposed bylaw changes as posted on the AMA website, including the EC vote for or against the motion.

The way I read it, anyone currently in their third term is grandfathered in for one more election cycle before being forced to sit out. For anyone else, the count is started. The motion passed by an 8-1 vote, with 4 DVP's not present.

As discussed earlier, an EC member can run again for a 4th (or more) consecutive term if no "qualified" candidate is nominated prior to 30 days before nominations cut off date. Any nomination received within that last 30 day period would NOT result in the incumbant's name being taken back off the ballot.

=====================
Motion VII: Moved by A. Argenio (I) and seconded by G. Fitch (II) to add to Bylaws Article X a new Section 3 as follows:
Any elected officer of the association is limited to serving in the same position to three consecutive full terms. After this third term the officer may not run again for the same elected position without standing down for at least one election cycle. After one cycle an individual may run again for a previously held position and be eligible to serve for another three consecutive full terms.
In any election, if there is no qualified candidate* of record (as determined by the chair of the Nominating Committee) 30 days before the nomination process ends**, an incumbent officer who has served the maximum number of complete terms may then be considered for an additional term by being nominated, per normal procedures, for the position currently held. If elected, this officer must stand down after this one term unless there is no qualified nominee, as determined above, in a subsequent cycle.
This term limitation is effective taking into consideration current elected officers’ service. Any current elected officer has the option of serving an additional consecutive full term after adoption of these term limitations, if they have already served three consecutive full terms as of the date of the adoption of these term limitations.

*A qualified candidate is defined as someone who meets all the qualifications necessary to hold the office he or she is seeking including, but not limited to, Leader Member status.

**The end of the nomination process is defined as the last day when nominations will be accepted at AMA Headquarters for the current year elections.

Renumber all sections following the new Section 3.

Motion passed: 8-Yes; 1-No (III) (VPs for District IV, VI, VII and XI were not present.)

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

That garbage has not yet been chiseled in stone. It has to be approved by the Leader Members, which I predict that will not be by 100% providing all LMs get a ballot. :eek:

It can all be found at http://www.modelaircraft.org/members...ecmotions.aspx

My only comment is that I am very proud that no one on that EC is someone I voted for. :D

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Hoss,
At the top of the reference it is written Dist IV not in attendance at this meeting. Written at bottom is VP IV,VI,VII and XI not present.

What does that mean? One states "not in attendance" other states "not present". Does it mean IV was not at the meeting and VI,VII and XI were there but not present to vote?

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Yeah, I'm aware that it has to be approved by the Leader Members.

I gather you're not fond of term limits? Neither am I. Be they a jewel or a dud, let the voters decide who they want.

Has there ever been a proposed bylaws change sent to the LM's that was rejected?

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

IMO, it means that D-IV DVP did not attend the EC Meeting. When the motions were made those others were not present for the vote. That meeting was in CA on a Sunday. Some of those guys just may have had to leave to get home for work, etc. There was a lot of airline problems during those days, IIRC.

Now that is just my somewhat educated guess, however the final minutes will very likely provide the actual. Thanks for the confidence. :)

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Time to start thinking about this. Leader members will be getting ballots in mail soon. The details are on the AMA web site.
If Hoss will it can be posted here. I do not know how to do it thats why I'm asking Hoss.

Other than to force change, why does the EC want term limits?

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

"Other than to force change, why does the EC want term limits?"


99 times out of a hundred it's because somebody can line their pockets, obtain more power, or get rid of somebody they don't like.....



Ron

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Term Limit?
Where? I dont see terms being limited,
but an open ended exclusion on the basis of Incumbant Only Ballots.... and we all know AMA hardly ever mails one name ballots :eek:

"In any election, if there is no qualified candidate* of record (as determined by the chair of the Nominating Committee) 30 days before the nomination process ends**, an incumbent officer who has served the maximum number of complete terms may then be considered for an additional term by being nominated, per normal procedures, for the position currently held. If elected, this officer must stand down after this one term unless there is no qualified nominee, as determined above, in a subsequent cycle."

They dont even wait till the end of nominations to put the guy back in play as a Nobody Else Showed candidate, he gets back on 30days before the noms close. Sure that is supposed to be so he can get nominated regularly, but lets get real for a sec: Obviously one or more of his AVPs can toss a nom his way in the final 3 days of the nom period. It also will be real apparent to all that NO other noms have been sent in for that seat, so everyone will know full well that the incumbent is just waiting till the last 3 days to bypass term limits
No need to have a 30 day Kick Aside Term Limits built in.

If nobody steps up,
then let the term limited incumbent be eligible for write-in on the Zero Name Ballot..... same odds as anyone else for write in, not favored and not kicked to the side

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Cant do a write in because the candidates must be vetted.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

Ask Hoss if folks can do a Write-In for incumbents not on ballots.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

I'll step in and let you know that another District 10 AVP is also active here.

One of the problems that has somewhat forced this issue is the realization that with long term VP's, is that they learn how to milk the system. There is at least one that has had AMA scholarships for all of his childern. His childern are also on international teams and get to go to foreign contests. These "advantages" are difficult to come by for those without "connections". There are other VP's that have tied their business to their position. A little bit of free advertising helps grease the skids.

My point is that any long time elected position can use their vote to control the enviroment in which a living is made. Depending on the "elected" morals, or job constraints, will affect the position and how they use it.

I would vote for a term limit with NO futher ability to run again. I would also allow an ex-VP to be on a committee as a member only (capture the knowledge) for one term. Then off to retirement.


To answer questions about long term AVP's. Distric 10 has several AVP's that have many years of service. I happen to have the most years of service of any AVP that AMA has records for (currently 30 years and counting). Yes, we have duties, doing as our VP directs us to do. AVP's are the eyes and ears for the VP. We attend meetings and events that the VP can't. We field questions about AMA and help individuals and clubs with their problems. Many of us have become skilled mediators as part of our duties.

Bob Reynolds
AMA Fellow
AMA AVP dist 10
AMA 3006

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

"One of the problems that has somewhat forced this issue is the realization that with long term VP's, is that they learn how to milk the system. There is at least one that has had AMA scholarships for all of his childern. His childern are also on international teams and get to go to foreign contests. These "advantages" are difficult to come by for those without "connections". There are other VP's that have tied their business to their position. A little bit of free advertising helps grease the skids."





Right there just proves what I was saying, there's as many crooks here as in any big org. It's easy for things like this to happen in an org this big, just like the govt.


Ron

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

A very revealing post. Apparently from someone that isn't afraid to look at things without the blind allegiance as is usually the case.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

While you may not be a Leader Member eligible to vote on the Term Limit amendment you may know one that you can talk to as to how you feel on the issue.

Attached is a listing of AMA Officer Term Completion Dates if Term Limits are Adopted in 2009.

RE: EC Votes In Term Limits
 

I see 4 names on that list with the indication that they already hit the 3 term limit.
How many of those 4 guys won their last election as a One Name Ballot?
<aka: Toothless Term Limits wouldnt apply>