This is going to be a touchy subject,and I am not out to insult or discourage anyone...
I have spent many hours reading endless posts on this website and I really like RCU.
I am a little concerned about Arf's and how easy it is for anybody to have a RC aircraft ready for maiden.Not too long ago we all built our own aircraft and it would take some intelligence and drive to archieve and actually get an airworthy airplane.Instructions were fairly thorough and many details were adressed.(depending on kit)We learned through this long process to respect the planes, and as we built more we could determine faults in kit design and intructions.Through experience many of us have become responsible builders and excellent pilots.
It seems these days many companies are offering good looking ARf's that are affordable and many newcomers can easily be ready for flight in several days.In most cases the instructions are broad and poor and some manufactures are selling a some what unsafe product.This is just my opinion of course,but I really do believe that everybody should built a kit in their early stages and get to know what thrustlines,incidence/firewall/engine offset/fin offset/ are,how to cover an aircraft..etc..

I disagree, to a point,
I believe that this hobby (sport?) is progressing pretty much the same way that full-scale aviation has done. At the very beginnings of full-scale flight, if you had the dream to fly, then you had to concoct your own-designed flying machine, like the Wright Bros. did. That's all there was, so you invented. That progressed on and then companies sprang up that started designing and manufacturing aircraft. Today, a full-scale "sport" pilot surely isn't expected to build his own airplane, though he could with as many kit planes as are out there.
With models, the same is true. At first, people carved their own planes and flew them. Then, being the capitalist entrepeneurs we are, we saw a need for kits, that had most of the pieces shaped and somewhat ready to use. This has naturally lead to the ARF's and ARC's of today.
I do agree that building some kits is beneficial. You learn why it flies and not just how it flies. You also have a better idea of how to fix it if you know how it went together. I have built kits and also own a couple of ARF's. Personally, I'm not a builder. I don't like long, laborious hours shaping and carving and turning a box of sticks into a plane. But that's me. I'm not a patient person as I suspect a large part of today's society isn't either. But I think that the whole thing is progressing along as far as technology and the need to make a sale will allow. Whether this is good or bad, who can say?
All I want to know is, who picks these gaudy trim schemes on these ARF's?[X(]

Jesse

nitro wing :

It's defiantly a sore spot to very many!! I understand your position but it's probably not going to happen. Heres why I think this way. time has become such a valued thing because so many of us have so little of it to spend doing what we want, So... New comers to the hobby find the hobby by stumbling into a hobby store or seeing RC planes flying at the park when attending a little league ball game or by way of friends. Now this being the case all they know is FLYING these neat toys and building one never crosses their mind because pre built planes are so redly available. they are told by their friends or the hobby store that !QUOT! for just $$ we can have you ready to go in just a few hours!QUOT! it seems so simple. In the recent past I find it more and more that when you go into a hobby store you see ARF's everywhere and the only kits are covered in dust on the top shelf, and as a result most builders are going to the Internet for their specialty purchases and hobby stores are stocking mostly ARF's. New comers to the hobby that have never built a kit have on idea that some of these ARF's are just built less than adequate for safe operation because it's all they ever see. I've seen things at our field that simply scare the hell out of me and it's cause some people do not know any better. but we as experienced builders and fliers owe to ourselves and the newbies to jump in and help before someone gets hurt. I'm with you in your opinion that everyone needs to build a KIT and gain an understanding of the things you listed, but I don't see it becoming any kind of trend as long as ARF's are everywhere.
At our field we are very careful not to insult new comers or discourage an ARF for their first plane but we also are very strict in how we let our field be used. and we encourage the new commers to rebuild their crashed aircraft as opposed to just replacing it and we offer help in this area, several in the club have nice shops and are open to the use of their shops for just this thing. I don't have an answer for you I'm just letting you know how we address those very concerns in our club.
In closing....The last thing any of us want or need is any kind of reperssive regulation so lets all try to help newcomers learn without doing damage to life and limb and my car in the parking lot!!!!! and together we just might keep our hobby.

I'm with you.

Miloh.

whstlngdeath:

Just a question with no implications attached, cause I really do not know. Can you really buy a full scale airplane kit, build it and go fly it with no inspection as to it's building quality and safe flying condition? and can you go fly it without passing a test that shows you know how to fly it?

Miloh.

Dam that little box!!!!!

Nitro, Iagree and disagree with you. I agree that at least once everyone should build their own plane. they will value it more and begin to better understand the principles of flight. That in itself will permit the person to become a better pilot.

On the other hand, those that just do this stuff as a way to pass the time, then about all they will get out of it will be a whole bunch of fun and satisfaction when they do well. Ultimately, I believe that's what we all what.

No, the ARF only assemblers will never be able to build or repair a plane like those of us who can. But where else are us builders going to get ahold of planes with so little repairable damage so cheaply?

To each his own and enjoy it as you will.

Pat

Miloh,
Actually, the FAA does need to inspect the final product. The kit planes are listed as "experimental" planes and you do need a pilot license to fly one. I worked for Mark Brown in San Antonio, Tx. laying up composite parts for a kit plane called the Pulsar. The kit, to be qualified as a kit, has to have at least 51% of the assembly done by the builder and not the company offering the kit. We would offer either a full-blown kit, much like Top Flite does, or we also had a "ARF" version that came with the wings built and several other items already made. It was up to the customer. At the high point of our sales, we were selling 5 kits a month and it was all that we could do to keep up with the sales. We also offered orientation flights to potential customers. Sort of like a check ride to get you up to speed on how to fly it. You were expected to be a fully licensed pilot by the time you were done building it and were ready to fly. The FAA expects you to keep a log book of the building progress and then they inspect it before the first flight.
The only kit plane I'm aware of that don't require inspection, or even a pilot's license are the "ultralight" classification. I guess they figure that you are taking your chances on that thing folding up like a cheap card table, so you're on your own!

Here's a shot of the Pulsar we made with Mark Brown, designer, at the controls:

Jesse

Good input Guys.
I guess my main worry was bad ARF's ending up in in experienced hands.I have some ARF's too,because my time is limited like most peoples,and I want to be flying.For those who have built many aircraft can tell if a kit/ARF is inadequate in areas,such as iffy wing mounting,or poor hinging techniques,weak pushrods,generic hardware,or if the firewall can handle the engine intended.Good flying clubs will help and check over these situations.But I guess there is some that wont seek assistance and may have a very frustrating and disapointing start in this hobby.

Hi People

Ok Im a newbie with one of those "ARF'S" and I had fun building it. When I went to the field I set an appointment with an instructor because I did not even think of it leaving the ground without his approval. I worked hard on that plane and the instructor said that I did everything right, but he offered tips to improve the overall project. When I get more exp. with the plane I have, I have an extreme desire to build a kit and even scratch build from some plans. I only chose the "ARF" to get some exp. I did not mean to offend people with it. Hey Im New. OK?

Superscott :

No offense taken!! sounds like you did everything right. Just wish everyone took the time and effort to research it and get the proper help. Good luck and welcome to a wonderful hobby.

Miloh.

One other thing that I think would help is some truthful reviews ( another sore subject) I don't know about you guys but I've never seen a bad review but I have seen many bad kits.

I wish I had saved my response on a Word document so that I could just copy and paste for the dozens of times I have responded to this question. I built kits-- in the beginning 2-4 per year for a number of years. Nowdays, I have to pay people to assemble ARFs for me and I buy used already built planes. Time marches on--priorities change--and it gets harder and harder to find/justify time for a hobby. In my case at least. I spend a TON OF MONEY every year on these stupid little planes. It seems that every SPARE minute is devoted to maintenance and upkeep, etc......

If I had to go back to building everything I fly, I would be out of this hobby before the sun went down today.

NOT THAT I LIKE IT THAT WAY--- THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT IS-- OR THE WAY IT HAS BECOME FOR ME-- for better or worse

A lot of vaild points have been posted. But in reality it
all balls down to technalogy. No differance then the
world around us. We used to talk in morse code now we
talk on cell phones. Kits was the thing at one time but
technalogy has brought the ARF in to the world around
us and there here to stay. The ARf might come in handy
one day when i get to old or so old that i dont want to take
the time or effort to builld the kits. I do build better kits
than any ARF kit.

To quote another thread...


Did you build your car or buy it ARD (Almost Ready to Drive)?

I can see the point ,but for me, it came down to time constraints. I built my first kit over the winter when I couldn't really fly anyway. Enjoyed the experience. Now I don't want to fly it for fear of destroying my hard spent time and effort.

I find ARF's a bit more challenging to the mechanical mind than kits. Trying to put in retracts, or even mounting an engine can cause the builder to become intuitive. There are no plans with ARFs so trying to check CG and incedence is a calculated guess at times.

Building does not guarantee a well built plane or a plane better built than an arf if the person doing the building is inexperienced. A a matter of fact, a new person to the hobby is likely to make lots of mistakes in the building process if he does not have a more experienced builder help him along the way. The key is whether you go with an arf or a kit, if you are new to the hobby, get someone more experienced to help you.
I agree that it is good to build at least one plane (with help) to get a feel for how they are put together...mainly so that making repairs will be less intimidating. Since I have been flying in the last 2 years, I have owned about 10 arfs and have built 2 planes. The arfs have been fine for the most part, but now I always reinforce them in key areas such as the firewall, landing gear, etc. I started out with a sig kadet lt-40 arf which I put together myself and seeked help when I had questions. Before it flew, an experienced pilot at the field checked the plane over and flew the plane for me. Then he helped me fly it. So I don't think arfs are what we should be critical of. In fact we all have a responsibilty at our local clubs to make sure that any new inexperienced person that shows up gets help with his plane and his first few flying experiences. If he doesn't get help (whether he wants it or not) then we should be critical of ourselves for not enforcing our club rules. Like, AJF--2 between family and my job, I don't have the time to spend building every plane, so ARFs allow me to spend more time flying and less time in the garage.

Greg

Yea I remember the first ARD "Almost ready to drive" Auto I bought I'll never do that again. Choosing The motor and drive train and installing it all was a real pain.
I would reccomend a turn key outfit.

Miloh.

Speaking of building, hats off to Dennis Gergits at Carden Aircraft. When I called to inquire about their 30% CAP 232 kit a while ago, he questioned me upfront on my building experience with large scale planes. Why? Because even if you have had experience building the smaller planes (which in general undergo less stresses in flight) building the larger planes requires much more attention to detail and care regarding gluing techniques, reinforcements in certain key areas, etc. So he wasn't just interested in selling me a plane without regard to safety concerns (as some companies would be). He very well understands that a large plane not very well put together could be a safety hazard, and that it would be bad for his buisiness if a lot of his planes were flying around poorly built. So he emphasized if I wanted to take on that project to be sure and get help from an experienced builder (preferably someone who had experience building his planes).


Greg

It's just progress!

There was a time when exactly the same was said about kits (and I mean 'kits'! All that was supplied was balsa sticks, and sheets with the ribs and formers drawn on them, with poor ink, and definitely no pre-bent wire for landing gear!). It was cheating to buy a kit, when you could buy the stock balsa and use a plan.

"'A plan?' You should be designing and drawing your own!"

As with any development, there are good and bad things about it.

One thing is for sure. The average time actually spent flying has dramatically increased!

-David C.

I can only assume that many R/C pilots like me would rather 'build' an ARF due to time constraints. I have a 19 month old son and a very high maintenance wife that probably requires more time, attention and money than my son. Anyhow, I have absolutely "0" time to build a full blown kit. As it is, it takes me about a month or so to get an ARF ready for its first flight as I usually only work and maintain my planes late in the evening hours after my son and wife have turned in for the night. God Bless the ARF Gods and their support staff. I love this hobby, but with my limited time, I would much rather fly versus build. To each his own though.

Good luck

I agree with the time constaints, these days I just dont have time to build the kit forms of these planes. I do agree with some posts though that everyone should at least build one kit.
I have a 4*60 that I started building last year, it is still not complete and to be honest Im not sure when I will get the time to finish it. I can tell you that I enjoy doing it and have started working on it right after work and on through the night many times. Im sure a lot of you know the feeling when you look up at the clock and realize its 5:00am in the morning. Not good when you cant keep your head off the desk in the office...lol

It is an unfortunate thing but I just cannot afford to have nights like that on a regular basis and that seems like the only time I have to really sit down and put the time in.
What I end up doing is putting in 20min here, and 20min there but not much gets done.

There is also the aspect of space, ARF's usually dont require a garage or work room to build in, it can be done on the porch or in the living room with limited space and tools. After a session it is fairly easy to put everything away until the next time. Kits on the other hand I feel need a large open area where glued parts can be left out to dry and accomodations for all the tools and such.
This is very difficult in a apartment, especially with a wife and kids.

Some of us also have financial restraints and kit building costs more initially than it does to build an ARF. To do it right we all know that certain tools are required to put a Kit together. Once you have everything it really is no big deal, but with my first kit it was back and forth to the hobby shop because I had to get this and that. My slot cutter just came in a couple of weeks ago, now I need the covering, a heat gun, and other covering accessories. I was not able to buy everything required all at once so I bought the kit, then later the motor, then the servos and so on and so on. I still have a few things to get.

The 4* has been sitting on my bench for more than a year now and 1 ARF has come through and was flying in a few days, I have a second ARF in the works and this one is taking a little more work but should be done in a few days. If I waited for the kit to be complete I probably would not even be in the hobby, for certain I would have nothing to fly.

For those of you that have the time and resources to build kits, you are the lucky ones. If I could I would fly all day and build all night, but for me that wont bring a paycheck.


Dbow

Hey Nitro,

Here's a similar discussion going on in the Kit Building forum, check it out..........

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Kit_...1123004/tm.htm

Scott

Here's the biggest problem I have with spending months building something: it has a very good possiblity of crashing. Not matter who you are, how good you are at flying, the thing could take seconds to down and turn 6 months of balsa and covering into saw dust.

That's the problem I have with building. Even an ARF is a lot of work. You make it your pride and joy, fall in love with it, and crack, crack, crack, there it is in pieces before you, or in a tree, IF you can even find it. But that's just me.

Joe

JoeAirPort :

Point well taken But..... what about the arf I put together a while back and It was nice looking and it flew good for two flights....This is when a piece of hardware failed and all control was lost. The plane went in and was totaly destroyed. Had I built it this plane I assure it would not have failed under normal flight conditions.
Sometimes you feel like a nut sometimes you don't.

Miloh.

Miloh: Was the problem with your ARF an elevator control rod with a 90 degree bend that came off your servo horn? I thought I just read about that. Anyway, I have those right now and want to upgrade them to a better connector.

I see YOUR point but someone would have to call the psycho ward and have them come and get me if I crashed a plane that I spent all winter building. I think I'd just hang it from my ceiling somewhere if I built a 6 month plane...lol.

Obviously I'm not very confident in my flying either. So I'll personally stick to ARFs and learn how to build them to be reliable (upgrade hardware, add balsa and glue etc).

Joe