Volfy, it almost seems as if you are saying that everyone who buys an ARF should peel all the covering off to fully inspect the airframe prior to flying it. If that is the case, then why cover it to begin with? Why don't they all just come as ARC's? The whole point of the ARF is to assemble the plane with minimum work and not having to uncover the plane at all.
My point is this, if you have to go through all the work you are referring to in your post, then why not just build it from a kit to begin with? Your reference to all of the work you did on your plane only strengthens mt argument as to the safety issue with ARF's.
Yes, I whole heartedly agree that ARF's have come a long way since I was a kid. Back then, about the only ARF's were trainers. And the quality is much better than it was. Some companies are much better than others, and some are really good, to the point where quality is approaching good kit built craftsmanship. But, I must say that the overall ARF industry still has a long way to go.
A case in point is the Hangar 9 brand. I ran into a thread where a gent had a Hangar 9 Sukhoi, and after about 20 some flights, the wing was falling apart inside, and there was lots of rattling etc. Instead of just removing the covering, and fixing the wing and bolstering the hard points etc, he spent lots of money to find a big enough box to send it all the way back to the company in hopes they would replace the whole wing. Hangar 9 stood by there product and will replace the wing, but the guy has to wait months for a replacement, when he could have fixed it himself better than the original design and had it in the air within a week.
I could not help but express the possibility that the new wing may end up with the same problems as his first, or even worse, thus losing the whole model. Now, the guy does build planes, so I think it was a matter of wanting to be a satisfied customer more than anything. But my point is, if he had properly built it from a kit, then it most likely would not have had any problems to begin with, thus saving him all of his heart-ache.
With all this said, I will happily say this, the Hangar 9 Sukhoi totally ROCKS!!!!!! A worthy ARF, if there is one.
I saw a vid of one flying, "SWEET" is an understatement.

Patriot

Patriot, I guess you missed it when I said:

"...Do you have to do all THAT to your ARF? Of course not. You should do what you think is prudent."

I listed all the stuff I did to that particular ARF to show that just about any mod is possible. That was in response to all the claims that ARFs are difficult to inspect and reinforce. Most of the ARF require little or no modification to be safe and flightworthy, as long as the owner stays within the manufacturer's recommendations and assembly instructions.


It is becoming clear to me that most of the ARF bashing is really bashing people who buy ARFs. ARFers don't know how to do this, ARFers don't know how to do that. That's what make them unsafe. Well, that may be your perspective, but from what I can see, that is not the prevailing conditions at the flying fields. The vast majority of the ARFers I meet at the fields are like me - guys that used to build, but fly mostly ARFs now.

The folks that you label of being poorly skilled and uniniated are really the newbies. But newbies are gonna be that way regardless of what they bring to the field. Before ARFs, it used to be that newbies only show up with trainer 40s that nobody ever pays any attention if they crash. Only after an RCer has been in the hobby for yrs would he acrue enough know how to build a giant scale or a pretty warbird. Kinda let the older guys maintain their proper pecking order.

Now the newbies can show up with a 1/3 scale Sukhoi one week after they solo, and the old guys get alarmed and discusted. That's really the problem, isn't it? Well, you know, if the guy's got the money and doesn't mind spending it, what is the problem? So he would rather send the wings in for a new set, instead of fixing 'em himself. Isn't that his perogative? It doesn't bother me one bit how another RCer spends his disposable income. Neither is it my business to tell him what he should do in his spare time.

Enjoy RC your way, and let others enjoy RC their way.

Please don't get me wrong. I think most of the higher quality ARF's nice planes. I just wish more attention was payed to the skills of building rather than as you say, showing up with a 1/3 scale plane a week after solo.
I have to admit, I have built models since I was a kid and I just got back into this last year, and have found my building skills took little or no time to reestablish. I'm having more fun with it now than ever.
I think for guys who want to fly ARF's prefer it, then that is their perogative, as you say. It is in fact their money. Maybe I am just too frugal. I really think we are not disagreeing that much if at all here. I just think that this revolution is having an effect on the hobby that has alot of guys new and old, questioning where it will take us. Will it be a benefit or a detriment? It has saved the hobby in many ways by bringing lots of people into it. But, it has started to erode the old skills of building and the availability of kits I think.
I have to refer you back to my earlier thread, where I specifically said I think it is our job as builders to really get as many ARF'ers into the hobby as far as they can go, and teach them about the skills of building rather than bash them for flying ARF's. I do my best to try and cheer guys on who have built ARF's and no want to try a kit. I think that is awesome to see. It is better than bashing, which can essentially balkanize the hobby into builders and flyers. But sometimes the disgruntleness gets the better of all of us.
I have come to the realization that ARF's are not going anywhere, they are here to stay, whether the most die-hard builders like it or not. I guess what I am doing here is trying to do in essence what you were doing by modifying your plane as you stated. The more you get a guy to dive into repairing and modifying his plane, the more he may be headed into the direction of building a plane of his own someday with the acquired skills he recieved from us earlier on.
I am not sure we are really disgreeing here. I think the safety issue is one we both agree upon. All I can say is this, it is imperative to constantly press the inspection and thus the safety of ones ARF to make sure they can enjoy many safe and happy flights. Of course the same really goes for a kit built plane too. But, I think with ARF's it is even more important to constantly address in order to prevent complacency with a plane that has been pre-built.
I know this seems presumptuous, but from my observations, it seems that ARF'ers tend not have as much caution when they fly arf's vs. flying a kit, as they have no personal time invested. This not ALWAYS the case hoewever, but overall I think it seems to be that way. Which is why I refer back to the previous statement of pressing safety and inspection as much as possible.

Patriot

I like building kits, but I can't build them cheaper than an ARF and that bothers me. By the time you buy the kit and 3 rolls of covering, 2 bottles of glue, 2 cans of spray paint you could easily buy an ARF.

I fly ARF's better. That bothers me too. I don't really care about them - nothing invested in them but money. Some are built like crap, but some are really well constructed, even the ones from China. Where else are they built?????

Can anyone tell me how they cover those darned things with out even 1 bubble???? That bothers me as well.

You sure don't get the pride of ownership that you do from kits or scratch built planes. You also don't get the enjoyment and challenge of constructing something your self.

Signed,
Frustrated Builder!!!

I have to admit, i usually can build a plane much cheaper than the equivalent ARF. I don't use plastic film. I use Koverall, it is pretty cheap. Also use primer and Rustoleum alot, it is cheap too. I found a guy to get CA from real cheap, and epoxy as well. I even use wood glue on odd ocassion. Also, I buy my wood in bulk.
Now that I am headed into the scratch building. I figured out I can frame up my next project for about $200.00 in wood, fiberglass, and hardware, where an equivelant kit would probably cost around $300.00, and an ARF this size would probably run around $600 at bare minimum.
Money can be saved when building if you really look around for good deals.

Patriot

Don't attack the messenger, the topic is arf saftey, your undertone of rudeness is odd. Fact of the matter is that some of these 15lb 100mph projectiles are dangerous. We're talking about a real and specific problem. Nobodys picking on the arfr's. In stead of re-engineering/rebuilding your arf why don't you complain to the guy that built it? Some of GP's failure's really are undeniable. these failures are also mass produced. If you don't complain to the manufacter that makes you part of the problem, I'm unrelentless when sombody screws me.

Whose undertone to which do you refer? I didn't think any of us were being rude. We all have our own opinions. I think I will end my input with this.

Safety is an issue with ARF's, Kits, Scratch builds, and Nude Female Jell-O Wrestling.

Reguardless of it's origin, let's be careful out there!!!!

Patriot

Ditto all of that

Joe

I happen to think this is one of most civilized ARF vs. kit threads I've ever participated in. Patriot, I agree that all said and done, we don't really have much to disagree. We are simply observing the same phenomenon from different perspectives and with different values.

Change in inevitable in this hobby of ours. We win some and we lose some. However, I do firmly believe that we RCers gain much much more with the ever increasing popularity of ARF than we lose in the traditional process of kit building. That's not to say building skills are destined to become extinct. There is just no avoiding learning the craft, when one starts to play with model aircrafts more and more.

Oh, yes I do fly a cheap ugly Stik much better than I do a high-dollar airplane. I guess the absence of high pucker factor allows me to be more relaxed and actually become a better pilot. Maybe that's why Stiks still rank high on my favorites list, even after I've acquired many other supposedly precision giant scale aerobatic machines.

The one thing that I do not like about ARF's is the the fact that they seem to be the cause of the loss in kits being manufactured. This trend is likely to continue for awhile, because the manufaturers are selling many more ARF's than kits.

Let's face it, that trend will continue as well, because we as a society, have less free time than we did even 20 years ago. (Amazing how progress seems to be robbing us of our freedom and our free time. )

I am hopeful that this trend in the reduction of kits will be like so many other things and have a "pendulum" effect. Whreby, the market will become saturated with ARF's, and the manufacturers will start producing more kits to satisfy what is already becoming a "new" demand.
Dennis-

Maybe some of the manufactures will start releasing some of the ARF's as kits. Some of the neat planes seam to be ARF only such as U Can Do 3D. All the manufactures are doing this. Sig has the Rascal in ARF only for the larger sizes. It's a neat looking plane but I won't buy an ARF as building is half the fun.

I have never posted to the ARF/kit debate, but just wanted to tell you my experience. I have been flying now for about 1 1/2 years. I am progressing well, and have not completed a kit yet. However, I am about to complete my SE and am close to the covering stage. I was not real excited about building again (I had built a CL plane about 30 years ago), but I started. Still wasn't sure even after working on it for a while. I am a real slow builder mainly because I work for an hour or two and then on to something else. Most of my long building is on the weekends in the winter. Good weather puts me out at the field flying. I started with ARF's, I like them, and I do check them out and modify if I think that something needs to be strengthened. Anyway, back to building a kit....it took me a long time to begin to warm up to spending the time to build, but it eventually happened and I want to keep building. However, I will continue to fly ARF's and buy those that I would like to fly. I don't look down on those who do, or those who don't. I do marvel at the scale planes and what builders can do with them. I figure it is a personal choice and I now like both.