As I see this, Irwin (or whoever he is) admitted the blame when he said the factory forgot to put the ply in the plane.

This is just another reason NOT to buy GSP planes. I don't understand why any of you guys are buying these planes. They are junk. There seems to be a segment of our hobby that just loves to buy these cheap ARF's and then they love to complain about the quality of them.
Look, you get what you pay for. I would say that it is partly the fault of the guy that bought this plane too. What did you expect to get from these guys? A high quality plane?

If we would demand quality and quit buying these cheap pieces of crap, we would eventually get quality when these cheap ARF companies went out of business and all that was left were the good companies.
What is better, to spend a little money on a cheap plane that ends up a pile of balsa in a short amount of time, or to spend a little more and have a quality plane that you can fly?

I've recommended certain planes to people on this forum in the past only to be told that it costs too much. Well, It's a free country, and I guess if you want to keep buying the cheap crap there's nothing stopping you, but what makes you think you're going to get quality in these cheap planes?

Wake up and start spending your money wisely guys.


Jim

When you buy a full size kit plane and you assemble according to directions and the fire wall falls out in flite and you are killed ! Who do you suppose the wife is going to sue the assembler or the manufactuer?

lonnie

O.K., you buy a new car. The brake lines are easily accessible. So, the factory doesn't hook them up...since you can reach them by simply getting under the car. Did you remember to check those brake lines before pulling off the lot?
[/quote]






I don't think anyone here assembles their own cars , but if I did I would hook up the brake lines.

tommy s

Well this thread has just made it so I will not buy the Corsair I was looking at by GSP.

They are doing a good job of keeping people from buying their kits.

If I spend 325.00 for an ARF...I expect it to be an ARF. Just like any other AFR I should just have to FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS they sent with it. If the instructions tell me to peel off covering to add wood...Then I do it. If they don't I should not have to.

If I follow the instructions I should have a flyable airplane...I should not have to rebuild it to make sure its safe...

If they want me to re-enforce something...then it should be in the INSTRUCTIONS...

If its not in the instructions...The company screwed up either in the Instructions, or in the kit.

GSP is responsible.....And since they seem to not care about the customer..I don't seem to care to buy or promote their products.

The question wasn't whether you build your own cars, but rather; "Did the RTD car you purchased perform as advertised, or did you ensure the brake lines were correctly hooked up, because, well, they are an assembly line product and people make mistakes, so you know you check those things before driving it off the lot?"

Good Morning All,

I have been all over the GSP site and it appears that most of the kits/ARF's that they sell are made by China Models. I have a China Models ARF and I like it alot. No I didnt use the supplied CA hinges or the tail wheel. Those mods were strictly by CHOICE and I am sure the model would be just fine with supplied parts. Seems that we are talking alot about mods that are made by choice based on personal opinion or experiance. Lets say you buy a GSP ARF and you personally dont feel that it has enough glass on the firewall so you "fix" it... Should you be upset with GSP for selling you a flimsy(based on you own opinion)kit?. I dont think so.... In its stock trim, the model may be plenty strong and you may never have a problem with it...
The original post was about who is to blame about a defective ARF. Manufacture?Distributor?Retailer?... or End User?... throwing an automobile into the mix just doesnt make sense(TO ME!...not a slam or a flame..just an opinion)... it is NOT Almost ready to drive... It IS READY to drive... the modeler purchased an AMOST READY TO FLY kit not a READY TO FLY KIT... This entire thread is based on opinion and we all know what those are like! There are valid points on each post in this thread and it really just comes down to opinions and attitude towards what one buys. If I buy an ARF and I am not satisfied(My opinion) with the quality, I have to chioces... Send it back for a refund/exchange OR... FIX AND FLY!!!.... I choose fix and fly everytime!.... Thats is my choice and after I fly it, I can have my opinion to as to recomending the model to a friend or to SLAM the mfg for making what I feel is a bootleg product.
Someone who is familiar with making a poll on this forum should throw one up there.... ARF's Who is to blame of there kit has a problem with final assembly... MFG? DISTRIBUTOR? RETAILER? MODELER?....

Myron

1/4 scale ARF... No Guarantee...$200.00

1/4 scale ARF...Guaranteed...$600.00


A Great Flying day, comforted by the fact you checked EVERYTHING on BOTH planes...Priceless



_Matt

A poll? Myron, there are laws that clearly define who is to blame if a product fails. A poll might elicit some interesting opinions, but it won't change he law and I think the original question was "Who is responsible?", not "Who do you think should be responsible?"

Jim

Ronhill : Thats a very wise decision not to buy. When I started in the hobby last year I was still flying my $150 trainer and was looking for a "future" airplane and happened to notice the GSP Corsair ($395 with shipping). I did not know about RCUniverse and was not aware of all the possible web sites for RC enthusiast out there. I was Blindly misled by their advertisements. It specifically states "READY TO FLY ...ALL YOU DO IS ADD RADIO AND ENGINE AND OFF YOU GO".If you do not believe me take a look at their add on the front page of RCU , its big and BOLD and stated right there. Even the review on RCU for this airplane stated that the colors didn't match , the flaps didn't work and various other problems. I did not find this out until I discovered RCU and the only reason I found RCU is because I was having problems with the ARF and the manufacturer, and I was looking for a way to rectify the problems. The airplane looks nice and makes a great wall hanger but with all the problems I have it just isn't airworthy. The forums will point out that the fiberglass "SAGS"in the heat , the wings snap off and flaps wont work properly without major modification. These were just some of the problems, my "ARF"had many more but maybe I just had one that was made on a Monday. The whole problem is that now that myself and others get more educated in the hobby we know what to look for and what to avoid. It's the newbies that these companies are taking advantage of ,,,and yes it happened to me but I learn quick. My best friend also got nailed by Vmar products when he started into it at the same time as myself. Just one quick example of the Great Planes quality (not to degrade GP but its obvious) ........Gp offers the Ryan STA and also the GEE BEE , on the towers website you will find a set of robostruts specifically made for both models at a cost of around $129. In the advertising for the robostruts it specifically states "tired of bent landing gear on the Ryan or Gee Bee....replace it with a robostrut". Not anywhere else do you see a special strut offered for any other airplane. So I would suspect that the landing gear for either one of these airplanes is sub quality and should be replaced. Now if the landing gear is bending this easily and there is a substitute at a substantial cost ,shouldn't GP look into building a better landing gear that comes with the "ARF"?I do not intend to flame GP but it just seems obvious that a strut is available to cure a problem that shouldn't be a problem.

Jim,

You are correct that there are laws that do state who is responsible for quality/craftsmanship ect... I am just trying to point out that there is a gray area in the fact that once a model crashes it is hard to prove what really went wrong... In the original post the modeler lost a plane do to a servo screws pulling through a balsa mount and causing a crash. I feel bad for the guy and everyone else that crashes a plane... BUT, you cannot prove that the screws pulling through wasnt a result from impact with the ground.. I have been flying for over 20 years and I have crashed more than my share of planes. I have seen servo screws pulled through ply, fiberglass, epoxy, ect ... If your plane hits nose down, the force the rudder puts on the servo and its mounts is tremendous.

Here is a "Whos is responsible" for you...

Me in 1990.. My first BIG plane, 80" Xtra 300 ARF with a BGX1 . Since it was my first BIG ARF I followed the directions to a "T".. Everything was in spec..
On my 8th flight I was feeling real comfortable with this model... Started doing Areobatics... Coming out of a dive I level off and while at full speed I hit my snap switch....DOH!!!.. Down and to the left... I heard a funny noise and the plane started to corkscrew in... I corrected & got it level as soon as I let off the sticks Right back into the corkscrew.. I got it level 3 times and each time when I let off the sticks it went back into the screw.... CRUNCH... 100% total destruction.... Whose to blame?... I was a dummy for hitting my switch at max airspeed.. The wings were held on with a tube, and 2 hooks and 2 dowels to keep it in place... RUBBER BANDS were holding the wings tight against the fuse.... AT the crash scene servos screws were pulled through AND the big item: You could plainly see that when I subjected the model to the DUMMY manuver, the rubber bands stretched and the wing got out of line with the dowel holes in the fuse and when the G-load was gone the bands pulled the wing tight against the fuse with a 25degree difference...... NOW the answer is what?


Did I overstress the airframe?
Was the model not designed right or the manual insuficent?
Did my inexperiance cause the crash because of my dummy snap switch manuver?
OR I should have known to put bolts in the wings?
Did the manuver cause servos to break loose?

WHO KNOWS???......... I personally feel the I caused the crash by hitting the switch at a high rate of speed.... By doing so I forced the wings to come loose pull back out of shape... There are just so many varibles that it is hard to determine Who is actually at fault....

Myron

I almost hit a big crow one time......he flew right into my flightpath. I'm guessing if I would have hit him he wouldnt have had the insurance coverage anyway. LOL. I agree after a bad crash there is no positive way to identify what was the cause factor since the force is so tremendous on the fragile aircraft and the electronic parts inside. I hit so hard one time I found the elevator pushrod sticking out fo the dirt 15 feet away and buried 3-4 deep in the ground. That one was my fault [:-] and no fault of the manufacturer. I also had a close call a while back with my rascal 40 , I lost one of the tailwheel springs after 3 flights and was attempting to make a new one from a spring I had in the field box ,when all of a sudden I was standing there with the rudder in my hand !! It pulled clean out of the horizontal. I couldnt believe it !! I had checked this before the start of the day and have probably checked it 20 times before and it was secure. Just makes a person stop and think where did I go wrong when I glued it in. I reglued it in and it has has 5 flights since without a problem but you can be sure I really check things over now before each flight. There ae so many things that can go wrong that i think if the manuf. could just step it up a little it gives us a little edge over what we do wrong. Just one less problem to worry about.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I have never been able to achieve an adequate torque on a servo screw in balsa wood.
The screw always goes soft before I am happy.
At best it is a well known tip that if you must, it is best to soak the hole in CA glue to harden it.

I think it is fair to say that looking at some of these planes (my $200.00GSP Katana for instance)
and what you get for the money is pretty remarkable. Starting from balsa wood, as one would have had to not too many years ago, it would have taken the average builder months to build a plane, and you can bet it hurt when it crashed. (notice I said when and not if)
Buying the plane you wish to have already built for so little money, even if it needs a lot of work, seems worth it as a "good place to start".

My GSP Katana was so bent and so crooked when I got it that it took three loads of wet laundry for me to steam it straight again in two axis'. THEN the task of fixing engineering issues like sheer webbing and a ludicrous bottom access panel with springs to hold the wings on. Creating a top hatch (with the help of other RCU users), fixing shear webs, Tons of other little things I did that were not included in the instructions, but which I felt prudent to address, and STILL... 200 dollars makes this a great "starting point".

I think mfg's are responsible for delivering what is promised.
I think it is the consumers responsibility to understand that mfg's promises aren't squat.

I'm very likely going to go out and buy ANOTHER Chinese built Katana for 200 dollars and take it home and strip the covering ...Still the best deal in town for what I like to fly.

It's a jungle out there

These are supposed to be made to assemble and fly!!! GSP makes garbage,we got a Decathalon arc. When we opened the box almost all of the stringers were off because of bad glue joints....
We pay the money to have a safe and dependable plane. It's their fault it was made wrong and they should pay!!!!![:@]
Thats all I got to say about that!!
Frank

Extraflyer, If it was that bad, then you should have taken it back to the retailer you bought it from and demanded a replacement. The retailer would only send it back to the distributor for a credit, so they wouldn't be out of pocket. If all the glue joints were dud, then that would be a "marketable quality" issue.

So hope you did!

As for the 1st posting in this thread. Sure, GSP screwed up and I sympathise. But that omission was an easly rectifiable issue really.

But from experience, presume nothing with an ARF or ARC kit. The perfect ARF kit does not exist. There is always something that needs attention or changing.

Legally, the individual modeller has " Duty of Care" to ensure that the model they are operating is actually airworthy.

That responsibility does not lie with the kit manufacturer, whether they be an ARF, ARC or a box of balsa type kit manufacturer, but with the person who is in control of the model at the time of operation.

As for the comparison with 100% factory built Automobiles from the main manufacturers, well they're not ARD (almost Ready to Drive) cars are they? So the laws that apply to them cannot be applied to ARF model airplanes and vice versa.

If they were ARD's, then you would be putting a KIT car together and would have to have it inspected by an accredited engineer for a road worthiness certificate, before you could get it registered and insured for legal road use.

And in both cases, the owner is still responsible for keeping the car in a safe condidon.

I got it, believe it or not, from GSPs main store.. It's ovious it was a manufacturing problem..
The plane was not assembled right from the factory.You should not be responsible for their mistake.If it said to put this piece of plywood in and you did'nt then it's your fault.
Why should we have to check their work? If it's wrong why do we pay them for it to be right?
Just don't buy from them anymore,I know I won't...
Well anyway,
Later,
Frank
www.njjf.org

Greetings all,
I live near GSP's store,and years ago when it opened,I stopped in.......I was looking to get into RC Planes. My experience was not pleasant. The owner asked ( not so nicely ) if I needed help,and I told him I was just looking. He watched me as if I were a con just released from prison! He wasnt freindly at all and made me feel like I was wasting HIS time.
I work part time at a local hobby shop,and we have many people come in and tell us what a %$#@#$ jerk the owner is,and that that was there last visit! I did stop in there a few months ago,because I was trying to match a piece of covering from a plane that they sell ( I actually bought the plane from another dealer that sells alot of the EXACT same planes,and the guy at the counter was real helpful ( probably because the owner wasnt there at that time ).
There are some real nice looking planes there,but I cant get past ,not only my first experience there,but also the many things I have heard from others that have stopped there.
I write this only to let people know that ( being that I am close to his store,and have first hand experience rather than mail order or phone ) that this guy isnt worth your time.
My advice......BUY ELSEWHERE!

I'm sure the major manufactures could manufacture a Perfect, "Almost" ready to fly plane, but would you be willing to spend that kind of money?

They are giving us LOW cost options, because the majority of us are too lazy to build ourselves. What do you expect for $200-$300??? I think you are asking for too much at that price.

After reading all of the responses to this thread, it's a bit disturbing to realize that some people actually believe all you have to do to an ARF is plop in your radio gear and an engine to fly the airplane. You are putting a potentially lethal weapon into the air and with that comes a large responsibility to possess the knowledge and competence required for such an action. Most manuals will state that "This airplane is not a toy" for those that might need a reminder. I also disagree with the example that this type of "factory defect" should be looked upon from a "newbie's" point of view. Even a newbie needs to have enough knowledge, skill and common sense or they should not be attempting this stage of the hobby without the help of someone who knows better. Most of the mechanical skill and common sense needed for this hobby are usually acquired from other areas of one's life before they even get into model airplanes and if a newbie does not possess these skills then he/she should most definitely seek some assistance. As for the the comparison to buying a new automobile, that is such a ridiculous example that I won't even bother with a response. The issue of voiding the warranty if you make any changes is way out of context here. I would have to think that most modelers put a larger engine on an ARF than what it is rated for, kiss the warranty good bye right there. I think that particular statement was geared toward any major modifications, not some minor reinforcing. IMO if one doesn't see the need to address some of these potential problems with an ARF and be willing to take the necessary steps to correct them, then maybe that person should think about taking up another hobby that doesn't require this, such as bird watching. I do think that it's a good thing to post these types of problems with any kit or ARF so others can make intelligent decisions about what brand to spend their hard earned money on. This is something that the manufacturer will eventually take notice to if their products continue to have more than a normal percentage of defects. I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone here as it certainly was not my intention, but this issue is apparently very unclear to some people.

I feel for your loss, but I can't say that it's all their fault nor is it yours. I have to interpret the claim as a 50/50 problem. They as a distributor try to provide you with a quality product and you as a buyer want and expect a well built kit. Here's the problem, they can't open and inspect every plane that comes from china. So now it is really up to you to decide what is acceptable and what is not in the basic construction of an aircraft. In some cases the problem areas are obvious and in some cases they don't appear until flight conditions occur. Now were down to the 50/50 responsibility of any manufactures product, they expect you as the customer to make the judgment call as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Not to mention that you should have noticed that when drilling the servo holes, it was only 1 layer of wood to screw to and no doubler. I see where your coming from and that there should have been a doubler but since it was forgotten you should have rectified the problem and notified the manufacturer of the mistake so you could cover your investment in case something goes wrong. It would be hard to fight someone who questions a manufacture on it's product and then have it fail after the report of what was in question. I've owned a few GSP arf's and I think the early ones needed a lot of help but were usable, their current arf's like the Zero I'm working on are very good and need almost no modifications to make them flight worthy.But to assume that it's o.k. is foolish and dangerous, The old saying is never assume because it makes an "ASS out of U and ME" This is how most manufactures feel when dealing with a customer complaint due to their product failing. What the manufacturer should have done is asked to pick up the product and inspect it to verify the product in question and make an educated opinion on the claim, if it is a legitimate problem, then they would take care of the issue. But if they find no problems with the kit, then they would offer to replace the plane at a reduced cost. That is in a perfect world but in reality, there are shady people in the business and it's up to you to safeguard yourself from their poor business practices. So "buyer beware!"[:-]

I am definitely willing to pay more for higher quality! (and I do)

Until the rest of you are willing to do the same, we are stuck with this junk, so get used to it and quit complaining.


Jim

I own a few GSP-Warbird ARF`s. Most are built fairly good and fly nice,but I always seem to replace something(hardware) or reinforce the plane in some way when building(kind of normal).
What I HATE the most is dealing and buying from( G.S.P.)!!
The owner and others working at GSP are the worst people to deal with.
Very rude on the phone, been over chaged for a plane once and 2-other times for parts and shipping.
I`ve stop by at there booth at the WARM Show to look around and seen the owner of GSP yelling at a customer and another worker at GSP trying to sell a plane to a guy at a higher price then there web site.
Both walked away with out buying anything.
I now buy the these kits and parts from other hobby stores, like JetHobbies in Canada.
G.S.P. needs to wise up and get there act together.

The point people are making is they advertise the arfs in this fashion. If they advertised them as ARFS, that may need you to uncover, recheck all the glue joints, recover...etc..., then maybe fewer people would have a complaint.

You can buy the same planes(China Models) from CHEIF.... Those guy sare great..... And Cheaper too!

Myron

Myron, Whats there web site??

Stick Jammer: I hear what your'e saying, however, after constructing two other GSP models and having no prior warning per instructions, I had no reason to suspect that the underlying substructure was inadequate. I think that my problen in detecting anything wrong has to do with my using a power screw driver. GSP clearly intended to have the servo screws attach to the balsa, and though the balsa was of good quality and hard it was not an adequate support. Had I realized this earlier, I surely would have added support.