At the risk of jinxing myself, I also have one. One servo per airleron, BME44, no problems. I also use the left stick for something besides rudder. I usually only fly about 1/3 throttle unless I'm going verticle. This is a great plane!

I have been flying one of the latest production run planes for a while now. I am set up box stock except for changing to pinned hinges on all control surfaces. I am using a Moki 1.80 with an APC 18x8w with airtronics servos 70 oz. each servo on the elevator and ailerons and 120 oz. on the rudder set up pull/pull so far I have not encountered any flutter problems the only problem I have had is how dang touchy the elevators are when trying to land and how flimsy the landing gear is. it seems to me that the flutter issue starts coming up when people fly it outside of what the plane is designed for. A slow flying 3-d plane (just my opinion)

Leel,
The DP manual even suggests 100 oz. min on the ailerons. I think those big ailerons need more than 70 oz. Mine sure did! I had 8231s on at 77 oz and stock hardware when it went in on a windy day after turning into the wind. Good luck with this. It would be much cheaper to replace the aileron servos now while you can.
Sincerely,
Bob

Bob you are right I had a brain cramp I have 102 oz. on the ailerons and 70 oz. on the elevator and 120 oz. on the rudder and all control surfaces are sealed so far not even a hint of flutter

After reading this entire thread I'm worried and confused because of how old the thread is. I bought a DP 330L in Febuary of this year (2003). I have a ZDZ 40 and Hitec 5625 servos on the ailerons and elevators and a 5645 on rudder. One servo in each wing. I checked for the cross bracing and there is none. I changed some of the hardware, Sullivan clevis's and Dubro ball links with Hitec aluminum servo arms. The pushrods I changed to 4-40 threaded rod. I was wondering if one of you guys could list everything I need to do to "beef up" and eliminate the chance of flutter. Thanks - Nik

Nik From what I have seen and picked up talking to others in my area that own the D.P. extra 330L the key to eliminating flutter is throttle management. I have a stock set up with a Moki 1.80 and have not had any problems with flutter. Remember this plane is meant to fly slow and be capable of doing 3-d it wasn't made to go fast. I can't think of a time when I have ever gone full throttle except on up lines. exception to the stock set up I did use pinned nylon hinges on all the control surfaces

The only "beefing" that I did was to use carbon fiber push rods. I'm running a BME 44 and Hitec 625mg servos on 6.0 volts. Don't be scared of this plane. Just use good throttle management, as this is not a race plane! If you fly this plane as it is intended to be flown (3D, low throttle) then you shouldn't have any problems. I hardly ever fly mine over 1/2 throttle unless I'm going vertical. The large control surfaces will cause you problems if you try to fly too fast. Otherwise, it's a great plane!

on the 1st bacth one that i have i don't think they were the fluttering ones but anyway no beefing on that one with a 22 x 8 bambula on a brison 3.2 i have seen the plane do a full throttle fly by as i bought it from one of the guys at the field after 10 flights as he moved up to a 35% er.....

Been flying my 1st batch plane on a Brison 2.4 with a 20X10 Menz Ultra. Single Futaba 9151 on each aileron, one on rudder and two on elevator. No problems so far and the plane flys great.

Built one 'latest version' plane for a friend recently. Lighter and laser-cut but flimsy compared to 1st generation.

On_Final
Pretty gutsy flying that large of a surface with plastic gears. I tried single 9151 on DP Edge and it blew the servo's up on the first flight. Going to try 2 - 9151's per airleron after the rebuild. Putting plastic gears in a 130oz servo is like putting a 1/16th inch propeller shaft and a DA-50.

Have first edition DP Edge like your with Taurus 3.2. Single 9206 on each airleron and have hundreds of flights with no problem.

Paul

If you static balance the surfaces you will have a lot less problems with flutter and loss of gears

DirtyBirdy,

Ahhhhhh, once again we get back to the truth of the matter. (primary) mass balancing the control surfaces. How many times does this have to happen before it sinks in? That fact, and (primary) throttle--airspeed management--; (secondary) sealing the control surfaces, should have ended this string months ago. There has to be a reason that full-scale aircraft manufacturers consider this procedure paramount. Also, check out the balancers on the P-38 Lightning. There were quite a few -38s lost due to this problem.....aggravated by poor power/airspeed managementuntil Tony LaVere (Lockheed test pilot) et. al. went "on the road" to teach pilots how to "manage" the -38... it makes for good reading!

I just cannot help but wonder how much money these misconceptions have cost DavePatrickModels? The moderator should close this one out.......IMHO.

Regards, Charles Earnest

Charles, "Misconceptions"? It should cost them alot. This is an ARF. The control surfaces should not need to be balanced if you follow their instructions to the letter. But there has still been a flutter problem. When I buy an ARF I am expecting to not have to be an experienced P-38 test pilot to fully grasp how to fly it without watching it fall from the sky after that dreaded buzzing noise. Where there's smoke, there's fire. How many other 1.2 size models DON'T have threads like this? Most of them!
Bob

All full scale airplanes balance their control surfaces. Why should't we have to? Maybe we should expect the ARF builder to do it.

And how many customers are using engines much larger then the recommended of the Mfg. With "Throttle control" being totally foreign to them.

yeah what does the manf actually know about the way we like to fly

Hi again, all,

One thing I would say in reply to all who disagree with my and dirtybird's posts:

V sub NE. For those unfamiliar with full-scale aviation, it means Velocity; NEVER Exceed, or maximum structural speed. If it is exceeded, the aircraft, in most all cases, will come apart. All aircraft, except maybe one I can think of, the SR-71 and perhaps the space shuttle have Vne marked on their airspeed indicator. Flutter is the first symptom usually encountered upon exceeding Vne. A model pilot has several choices in this area. Keep his airspeed under Vne for his particular aircraft, or make one or two modifications to compensate for his inability to manage his airspeed. The most desirable option is, of course, to properly manage airspeed (throttle/power management). DavePatrickModels has no power to manage how the modeler assembles their airplanes or flies them. As to why no one else has had those problems with their products I can personally attest to quite a few I have both had and observed. I can not see my way clear to blame the manufacturer for these "events" than blame the ocean for people drowning. It does not take a
P-38 test pilot to fly the DPM Extra 300L. For some reason or another some folks have had problems. I have a ZDZ 40 on mine and at no time when the nose goes below the horizon does the throttle not start coming back. I have never detected the onset of flutter, nor do I expect to. I am not a perfect pilot, in fact a long way from it. I do, however recognize my and my aircraft's limitations and endeavor to stay "inside the envelope". If I for some reason do not and consequently lose an aircraft, well......, that's my fault...............

Regards, Charles Earnest

C. Earnest:
For the year and a half that I have been flying by DP Extra with a Taurus 3.2, I felt the same way you did.

However after losing my DP Edge on its maiden flight due to flutter, I am questioning our wisdom. Was 1/2 throttle and straight & level flight making minor trim changes. Blew the gears out of both servo's.

Until it happens to you, it is easy to think the way you do and I used to.

Paul Eagon

Hi, PC,

I stand by my posts. Question: Did you balance your ailerons and seal the control surface gaps? Those are the two things I think are a must for preventing flutter. As has been stated on this string many times: If full-scale aircraft use balanced ailerons, etc. why shouldn't we????? I'm aware that some builder/flyers feel that an ARF should be a "turn-key" operation, but that thinking and the unwillingness to go the "extra" mile and make those additions to some airplanes has lost a few aircraft! These large surface/slow flying 3D aircraft with their (relatively) low weight and high horsepower to weight ratio open up a whole new can of worms not seen before in small-scale aviation. The bottom line is that the successes of the DPM Extra 330L and Edge far outweigh the failures. I dare say that any kit one can name has suffered failures of one flavor or another. Keeping in mind the infinite number of variables inherent in small-scale aviation, who, short of an investigation by the NTSB, and probably not even then, can definitively say what was the root cause of any of them? I personally think we should be very careful in assessing blame for an unfortunate incident which causes much grief and monetary loss when quite possibly it could have been prevented...............
Whether or not it has hapened to me has no bearing on what I consider to be the truth of the matter, and to be sure, I have lost two aircraft to flutter; one which I let a friend fly and forgot to caution him as to keeping airspeed down, and one which I momentarily lost in the sun and let get too fast. Consider this: The fact I forgot to caution my friend about speed and losing one in the sun are neither the cause of the flutter or the loss of both aircraft; speed was in both cases. In other words; both were preventable.

I do not think either side in this debate is going to convince the other that they are right. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Regards to All, Charles Earnest

Charles:
I was trying to point out you continuous reference to speed being the culprit. Most of the problems I have read about flutter on these 2 airplanes did not involve speed. Mine certainly did not.

Personally, and with no research backing,I think that the culprit is one servo (no matter how strong) on huge control surfaces.

Apparently Dave Patrick thought so also as he redesigned both planes for dual servos now. So far, I have not heard of airleron flutter with a dual servo setup, have you?

I am rebuilding my Edge and will use 2 servos on the wing and will let you know. And yes, the gaps were sealed.

Paul

PC,

Thanks for your reply. I hope that solves the problem. If the surfaces are too big for one servo then it would fail due to high aerodynamic loads whether or not flutter was present . Why would one large servo not solve the problem when several "smaller" ones would? Aileron torqueing??

Whatever the cause or solution, we are all better off for stopping it.

Regards,

Charles Earnest

The flutter is due to the fact of the aileron twisting in flight.
That's why my 35% Carden can fly with just one servo. With the foam core sheeted aileron it's much more ridged than the built up Dave Patrick. The best way to fix the DP problem is to stiffen the aileron length wise. This can easily be done by additional bracing and a strip of Dave Brown carbon fiber tape on the bottom of the trailing edge. I have 50 flights with out a problem. If you don't believe it, try to twist the aileron on a DP and then try it a foam sheeted aileron. (don't over think it)

Or you can static balance the aileron

D-Bird,

We're not only on the same page, we're on the same line...... :-)
Mass-balancing has always worked when I've tried it.

C. Earnest

All full scale aircraft balance their control sufaces. And their sufaces are really stiff.