Guys & Gals.
First off...I don't mean to put the ARF's down. In fact, all I have ever owned (From my trainer to my 1/4 scale H9 CAP) have been ARF's.

So I want to share my observations with you and get your opinions.

Almost every ARF is marketed as being 90% ready and taking 15-20 hours to get ready.

In my case, I have seen that to assemble and set-up some of the ARF's (Like my AW 60/90 Edge) it took much longer.

Going by the 90% ready and 15-20 hours to assembly rule, simple math will deduce that it takes 150 to 200 hours to build a kit.

Does it take really 200 hours to build a kit and are the ARF's really 90% ready ???

How long it takes to build a kit depends on the kit. It can take 20 hours for the really simple ones to several thousand for the other end. Even once a kit is framed and sanded it will still take me 10-15 hours to cover and trim it. 200 hours is not a unreasonable amount of time.

It's tough to make a general statement about this, so I'll try my best. There are kits out there that will take well over 100 hours if you want to do it right. I am working on a Midwest Extra and probably have 60 hours into it. The fuse is built up, wing is joined, tail feathers are complete. I estimate that by the time I have the plane flying I will have well over 100 hours in it. I am going to venture a guess by saying that covering the plane will take two weeks alone, and I have covered a lot of kits. Of course these times don't include the standard head scratching time, which can double the time spent in the shop. In comparison, something comparable would be a World Models Extra, which I have not built but a friend of mine did. Sizing up the plane, I can see that it probably took 20 hours to get the plane flight-ready. In this case I'd say the ARF was around 80-85% complete; not bad.

In contrast, however, a stick-plane like a Super Stunts will also take around 15 hours to assemble, but a comparable kit could easily be completed in under 50 hours. That is the type of kit where the frame comes up really fast and most of the time is spent covering and going through the final assembly motions.

There is a phrase in the homebuilt aircraft world: "90% done, 90% to go." This reflects your belief that the completed parts of a plane are further away from being flight-ready than their appearance would suggest. Sometimes this applies to ARF's, and sometimes they really are close to making their first flight. Hope this helps!

There is a similar phrase in the computer software world ... "the last 10% takes 90% of the time".

I started working on a trainer kit in the June or July, figured it was 90% by mid-August. After labor day it still seemed 90% so I bought an ARF Alpha to take advantage of the remaining good fall weather.

While it was supposed to be 1 hour to assemble and to get it flight ready, it took me 5-6 hours to get it assembled and get the servo throws correct. A fellow club member's Alpha didn't require the adjustments mine did and was ready in an hour.

I guess it just depends...

Cheers,

Cub

>>"90% done, 90% to go." <<

Excellent ! . . and very true!

David C.

OUTCAST,
Yes I totally agree with you on the "type of the kit".

For this discussion we are not talking about a scale model P-51 with authentic rivets and gun soot etc.

Let's take 2 very popular ARF's and compare building vs. ARF for discussion sake:

1) Avistar trainer ARF vs. similar high wing trainer....

2) AW 29% Edge 540 kit vs. the new AW 31% Edge 540 ARF...


And I couldn't agree more on the 90% done and 90% remaining remark

I think most people with arf assembly experience probably could get the plane flight ready in 15-20 hours. Now having said that if you do that and just take it out and fly it it will not be long and you would be able to have them ready in 5 or 6 hours because you will have a lot of arf building time in a vry short while. With me I don't think anything of tearing the covering off of the bottom of an arf and going over the whole fuse with a good inspection and a bottle of glue this also aids in the push rod and pull-pull instalation and the ammount of time I spend on alignment and incidence checking adds several hours to assembly. Now this is just the way I do an arf and some will not spend as much time on them. I look at arf's as the ultimate short cut to having a nice plane, some guys look at arf's as disposeable and do not put near as much time into the assembly of an arf as they would in the final stages of a kit that they built. It kind of makes sense to me but I look at my arf's in much the same way that I look at a kit that I build in that I have a lot of time and effort into it and I want it around for a while.

Hmm.... my slowest ARF (1/4 scale Extra) took much longer to put together than my fastest kit (frame-in-your-lap SIG Somethin' Extra). On the extreme edge of ARF'y-ness is the ModelTech Magic. I started that one on a Saturday morning and was maidening it in the afternoon. I'd say that ARF was much more than 90% complete, with it's semi-round sheeted fulesage and all.

I'm glad I'm not the only one! Having been a carpenter by trade for years, with half the tools ever invented (lost the other half), I figured I'd come in closer to the 15 than the 20 on my GP EasySport ARF. After all, I can read, right? Not so fast...as my Wife not so coyly pointed out. That was before the cat stepped through the wing...which was before I epoxyed the removable wing saddle to the fuse...which was long after 20 hrs had gone by... So I says to myself "self, it's kits or curtains for you, since you know squat!" My SE sure looks good in the bones

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flyfalcons
[B]....Of course these times don't include the standard head scratching time, which can double the time spent in the shop.[B]

Ain't it the truth. I probably spend more time contemplating than building. Oh well, measure twice, cut once!

Rein

Well I haven't had many ARF's but assembled a Hangar 9 Aresti for someone.

The Aresti took me no more than 4 hours, to compare to a similar sized kit I am currently building a Great Planes Ultra Sport +. It has taken around 14 hours so far and all that is left to do is put the trim on the plane and attach the canopy, so total time will be about 17 hours.

I never thought, and do not believe that the manufactures ever meant that 90% complete was a statement related to time. Time to build a plane is totally relative to the builder. Similar to the way running a race or reading a book is. The 90% is related to the quantitative measurement of how many assemblies of the entire aircraft are complete, compared to the number of assemblies that require completion. For example a 90 percent complete plane should have 18 out of 20 steps complete, seeing how time is a relative matter, the final 2 steps could take any amount of time depending on the builder. One of the main advantages of the ARF plane is the workshop required to build and ARF plane verses a kit, a kit requires a table that must sit still throughout the completion of the main assembles, not to mention messy sanding, and a dirty work area. However an arf could be built anywhere and you can stop building at anytime and store the unfinished ARF anywhere out of the way.

I've always wondered where the mfg's come up with their estimates on completion time, because it takes me at least twice as long to finish an airplane as the mfg quotes...

For example, the GP Wagstaff.. I'm working on one and already have the quoted 15 hours in mine, and all I've completed is the gear, wing mount and tube, glued the stab, fixed the covering job, and hinged the surfaces with hinge points. Still have radio (6-10 hr), engine / cowl (4 hr), decals (1 hr), programming and balance (2 hr), and final rigging, and I'm sure this will be a 30+ hr job also...

I've built a lot of planes (75+).. Quickest was an avistar RTF for a friend that still took a couple of hours to a full scale homebuilt that took 700+ (advertised at 300).

I thought I was average and the the mfg claims were aggressive.. But maybe I'm just a slow builder (I enjoy it so I don't rush).... Are most guys really able to build in the advertised time???? Chuck

mugenkidd has it. How do YOU define time? Do you rush through the process, trying to get it over with? Do you work slowly but methodically, with an eye on finishing it within a certain period? Or do you work at your leisure, making sure everything is just so, savoring the experience?

I have gravitated to the third option. It usually takes me forever to complete a project. This past summer, I had an unexpected week of free time, so I rushed to finish an ARF I really wanted to get in the air. I assembled it properly, but the finishing details are less than stellar. It has become my main flyer, but I'm not all that proud of how it looks.

I'm currently working on a SIG Somethin' Extra ARF. I built the kit version a few years ago, then foolishly sold it. This is probably the best all-around FUN airplane I've ever owned. But the point is that I've been putzing around with this kit for over a month. I'm putting a YS 63 on it, and I felt the need for a larger tank than is normal. Fitting it to my satisfaction was quite a project. In the meantime, I spent at least two weeks getting the engine mounted to my satisfaction, checker-boarded the wing bottoms, fabricated a new tail wheel set-up, then discarded that and just last night started to modify the kit tail wheel set-up. I've still got quite a bit to do on it, but will probably finish it up during the time off I'm taking at Xmas. I have no idea how many total hours I will eventually have invested; and I don't care...<G>

It's all about what you want out of the experience. For me, it's a way to pass the time while creating something I can use and enjoy. When this SE is done, I'll be starting a new helicopter project, and in tandem with that I'll get back on a Top Flite Contender that is about half framed-up. I discovered that having two involved projects going at once is the way to prevent frustration and burn-out. When one is causing you grief, or you just get tired of looking at it, put it away and drag the other one out for a while. I think that's called therapy...<G>

Kit-building is very rewarding, but you just cannot beat today's ARFs for the best bang for your buck. Yeah, some of them are crap. But you will not be disappointed with any of the upper-echelon offerings, such as Kangke, World Models, H9's "Premium" line, and The Empire's top-of-the-line models.

However, I think that if one measures the like/dislike factor of a model by how long it took him to build it, he is missing the whole point of the hobby.

Steve