TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

Why do ARF manufacturers persist in using "lite ply" instead of aircraft ply in "MAJOR" stress areas, like firewalls or retract mounts???????????? Over time the ply just crushes and the mounting hardware gets loose, or just falls out. Or the piece just finally fails. If an ARF does not get crashed and destroyed, then it just gets to the point that the motor retracts fall out.
I have been dealing with poor retracts mounts in major brand ARF, to the point I am fed-up!!!!
How much can it add to the price of a model, $1, $2 maybe.[&o][][:'(][:@][&:][>:]
OK, I feel better now.

Bob Laine

My Feedback: (91)

Thats easy to answer........It's cheeper to manufacture using "LITE" ply. There.......and I'm not even an MFG.

laker500

My Feedback: (2)

That, and they would love to have them fail after a year or two of flying. Keeps you buying new models. I bet if you could get them (the manufacturer) at the bar, having a few beers between friends they would tell you that it is all part of the equation. They know on average how long the average flier keeps a model before retiring it and moving on. If it lasts that long you would be happy enough to buy another. The poor guy that buy's it is blaming you for doing a crappy job of building when it crashes 15 flights after he bought it. Its all part of the master plan!!!

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

I bet it has to do with the availability of aircraft grade plywood over there. Some of the 'balsa' they use came from.....Mars? Anyway, some of the 'ply' used is "unique" to say the least....so it boils down to $$$ one way or the other! My $.02

IL2windhawk

LOL - maybe yer just buying some crappy planes.

Hooked-On-RC

My Feedback: (16)

Well be thankful they ARE using plywood regardless of lite ply or aircraft ply. They could be using mahogany luan more commonly known as "doorskin" that stuff is nasty stuff. The glues dont adhere to it very well, they soak up oil like a an old rag. The guys opinions are correct. Most manufacturers know if they can get a plane to last a couple of years and you are satisfied with their product you will in fact buy another one. If you are displeased witht eh quality of the materials in an ARF, built a kit and be selective of what wood you use. I am building a couple of kits right now and I have changed out some of the wood in it for better quality wood, which I hope makes a better end product. My only problem is I hate covering so that is where an ARF wins in my book

Stickbuilder

The keyword is building. When you build your own model, you have the option of using a better grade of wood is an assembly. When you buy an ARF, you are sometimes stuck with what they used. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill, AMA 4720

charlieoneseven

Terry, I know your frustrated with these issues and can sympathize with you. I too hate the cheapness packaged under most of the pretty monokoted ARF's these days. I usually build kits from reputable companys and have chosen to avoid most of the ARF offerings. You too can avoid these dangerous, flimsy, vacuumformed, liteply only planes for ever once you get it. Most of us got it after being burned like you and returned to sanding and shaping our own landing gear plates and firewalls going into our non ARF's. There are a few things to look for in the discription like "all wood" or "fiberglass" fuse and cowl etc. taking out the objectionable wood usually isn't that hard due to the less than elmers most use. My last one had the servo tray pop loose after a rough landing and caused a shifting trim and ultimate death roll from 20' up. Now I'm offing the extras for cheap and have vowed (say it with me)"To never buy cheapness again"! If one of the MFGs your talking about ever does respond you might need it translated.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

All ARFs really should be called -tweek to fly or TTF . Lets be seriuos we all know that we need to invest about $50 in ecah and every ARF we buy , that is wood for firewall , new retract rails , possibly new hardware , and usually a new spinner . This does not include the addition of real good retracts if your dealing with a warbird .

I love to build but just dont have the time in this point in my life , so I buy the ARfs with the best rep and still tweek them , if you plan on buying the arfs you just have to live with the tweeks .
I have seen reports on every arf from the low end to the high end Kondor /skyshark that need tweeks , its just the facts of the industry .Unless the sales team is US based like skyshark /Andrew Kondor/top flight , then dont bother emailing the rest , the CMPs , willshobbies , all the ebays , the nitro rc ect ect they just dont listen nor do they care . Your price is a reflection of get it to market fast and cheap and that is there mission statement .

Bob Laine

My Feedback: (91)

Most of the comments made on this thread are 100% correct. However, The manufacturers of "Kangke" aircraft does not shoehorn into the same mold in terms of quality built ARF'S of other Mfg's. Excellent in ever way. T just don't have too much to select from. Bob

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Bob I have to agree , I did see some of the Kangke planes reviewed briefly and the quality seems to be above average

rmh

If you don't like em -don't buy em - it is that simple
If you buy it and there is need for improvement - improve it
What is too weak in your book may be overkill in some one elses book.
Having built many ARFS from the very first ones (Laneir plastic thingy's) thru the carbon fibre Composites models -- ther is one notable point
there is no agreement in the market as to which is the best path - super light or super durable .
buy what fits you best - and if needed make mods - after all, it's your model

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

yep to each is own !!!!!

topgun600

My Feedback: (41)

This is the bad thing about ARF's we have all become lazy fools, no body likes to build a kits anymore what happen to the day when we would go down to the local hobby store buy a kit and spend a few months building an awesome plane, those days seem to be far and few between except for a few of us who still enjoy building, now all you see is arf no matter if it import or a American company they all are only making ARF's the KEY word in theses ARF's is CHEAP ya cant buy a 80 inch arf for under $300 and expect good quality wood even chinese has to cut cost to make $$$,To me you know the wood is junk replace it! you have already saved a bunch of $$ on the plane.
<<<<<<<<<<<<topgun600>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

I've been VERY satisfied with all the ARFs I've purchased. I've bought Great Planes, Hanger 9, Extreme Flight, Maxair, and Sig. Every one is nice. Are they perfect, no. I modified something on every one. But they are well worth the money and more. I personally feel they should charge more. I would pay it.

I've yet to send an ARF back and I haven't had one manufacturing flaw. I prefer the "super light" models because that gives me a good place to start. If I want to, I can add weight to reinforce every joint or I can land it "soft" to save the landing gear, rather than have it "indestructable" but so heavy it won't fly nice.

I see many complaints about ARFs and "manufacturing defects" and people sending the planes back and "whining" because theirs fell apart in the air. Yet the servos are light duty, the engine oversized and the speeds higher than recommended yet they expect warranty. How are "kits" warranteed? My guess is they are not.

ARFs appear to be cheaper than kits and certain are worth what you pay for them. I try to stick with major manufacuters but that's just me. Certainly I feel I get my money's worth in ARFS. Every penney. But I also realize they are not perfect and I take that into account.

Right now I'm building a Great Planes CAP 232 27%. It is a great specimen. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the builders out there couldn't do a better job. At any cost. It is a fine airplane. Could it be better? Certainly. Is it a good value. Yes!

Please don't slam the manufactures. Do your homework. But what fits your style and enjoy.

Thanks
Barry

GoldenEagle

My Feedback: (1)

I guess (since I'm a new ARF manufacturer) I'm just fool enough to play this game and jump in. I have to chuckle a little since I had this discussion with DH a year ago about super light or more durable. For one thing - yes, choices of materials are limited when you deal with far eastern factories. Hard plywoods are very heavy from their sources (not AC quality) and lite plys are often of less than highest quality. Also, when the buyers are constantly demanding lighter structures for lower prices, something has to give. In the building construction industry there was a saying that there are three factors in the building of your project: "Fast, Cheap, and High Quality" - but you can only pick two of those three.

Substitute "Lightweight, Cheap, and Strong" for talking about ARF's: If you want light and cheap - forget strong. Cheap and strong - no way it's light. If it's light and strong - prepare to spend $'s. There's no free lunch for either the manufacturer or the buyer. If you're the obsessive type like me - draw the plans, cut the parts, build it yourself. Then you'll really see what a challenge this is and how many compromises have to be made. I've built plenty of others' ARf's too - don't get me wrong. I ALWAYS modify, reinforce, or replace whatever it takes to get it flying. Ask someone who has bought a Carden KIT (more $'s than most ARF's) and paid someone in this country to build it to ARF level of completeness, just what it costs and what changes they have made to suit their preferences.

All I'm saying is choose carefully but be prepared to make a few improvements if you've bought low.

Chris Tomberlin

cochinito77

Hiya guys i have another ARF cheap question under wing area, they say something like 59 dm2 what the heck is that, im familiar with the metric system, but not algarythmetriconmies... hehehehe i have no clue what that is!?! i mean if they sell to a non metric system country, translate! can anyone help me out?

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

TGun I respect your opinion but I really dont think its about lazy fools , For me its is truely time , I love to build but with two boys at 12/14 I need to invest my building time with them , they will soon be gone and that time is so valuable .

On the other side the ARf market is so attarcttive if your willing and able to tweek and like me you should like to tweek . Some example , my H9 corsair , I glassed the wing near the gear , added my own balsa wheel wells , a zolner interior and sliding canopy , three colr scheme , gear doors and weathering . For me that was fun , and for now it was much more fun then building the same plane from a box of wood .

On another note lets talk money /value . I just bought a 66: seafury , totally awesome fiberglass fuse and cowl , nice wing ect . Plane come with non scale flaps so I ma spilitting them and adding CG retracts . I bought this plane delivered to my house for $149 . I cant buy the fiberglass , wood , and expoxy to build a fuse from scartch as nice as this one for the value .

Same with a P47 , deliverd to my door $109 , glass fuse , thick airfoil , very nice detail , its a canvas ready for my own personal tweeks . So the value of the arfs if you shop around is quite good but not perfact so you have to be willing to work on the planes .

As far as building , its an art , a true measure of a modelers ability to have patience , skill and creativity .We on the arf side truely respect many of the builders out there but many of us are simple 'closet builders " wanting to build but lack the time or lack the willingness to give the the time to build . We should not knock each other because so may arfs guys will someday build again, every part of the business cycle is a cycle , trust me you will see building come back in style . The differance will be -(in my opinion only ) is the kits will be better , more complete and better enginered . Lasor cutting or better will be standard , as well as clear plans, CD instructions and scale refferance guides .

Red B.

The wing area is stated using square decimeters as the unit (dm^2, dm2 or sq.dm).
1 dm^2 = 15.5 sq.in. so 59 dm^2 is equal to 914 sq.in.

/Red B.

Oregon Craig

To the lower-right of the "L" key on your keyboard is a little dot. "."

If Tgun and StickBuilder hate all ARFs so much, why are they posting in the ARF forum?

Not that they should not be ALLOWED to, I just wonder why. Do what you want. I have 2 kit built and 2 arf built
here right now. I like all of them.

Bob Laine

My Feedback: (91)

Attention All Read Dicks advice very carefully, and read it over again. This is some real "SAGE" advice. Bob

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

Ok guys every single person who has posted missed the point of the thread. I want someone who is in the "ARF Business" to chime in here, with a really legitimate reason for this crap. Like I said, those few parts very important parts could be improved for about $2 an ARF, even if the distributors were to ship decent wood to mfg for good fire walls and L/G mounts. I'm not complaining about the deeply discounted ARFs from the garbage dealers, I am talking about ARFs from the majors, like Hangar-9, Top Flight, Great Planes, KMP,etc, that are relatively expensive.
I dare them to to make these kinds of improvements.[>:]

Bob Laine

My Feedback: (91)

Ldm, I very well remember the days that "topgun10349," refers to. I was one of those that used to build my airplane from a kit because that was the only choice one had. As a matter of fact, I think I had one Goldberg (Falcon 56) kit that I had to re-build every weekend after I finished flying it.
I'll let you in on a little seceret.....If you have never built one of the Kits from the 60's, - 70's, you really can't appreciate the kits that we have available today. Or, for that matter, any of the RC eqipment that we use today.You would have to have seen some of the early ARF'S, from the seventy's. such as one of the original "Lanier" Comet's, Jester's, or one of DuBro's Mfg's attempts at an ARF. In all honesty, I have to admit that 95% of the ARF'S being sold today are built just as well and look better than the same plane that I built from a kit. And, for a whole lot less money to boot. I think most of the complaints we hear about ARF'S, come from modelers that just don't realize how well off we really are, and I suspect if we were to run a poll asking, Should all manufacturers just stop producing ARF'S, I'll bet this thread would overrun the capacity of this site to keep up with the input of those demanding that ARF'S be left on the market and I'd be at the head of the line.
I assure you "TopGun," didn't mean to imply that anyone was a fool. He was simply refering to himself being lazing and not likeing to build Kit's anymore. I can say this because He's my brother, and I know him better than that.

Just one other thing LDM, I "Tweeked" an airplane yesterday. I tweaked A beautiful "Nick Zeroli," F-4U Corsair right into the ground. It was powered with a "4.2" Walker Sachs. (YES IT WAS PILOT ERROR) And....... what a splash it made when it hit the ground. This was one crash that every RC'er should have witinesed. Not too many crashes of this caliber happening very often. Oh well....Think I'll just leave the tweaking tweaking alone.

drone pilot

N70R...See ya at Molalla next weekend..ScaleMasters...Open class allows ARF's this year there.....Cliff (SpaceWalker II)

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Bob , not to get off subject , I built the Falcon 56 , my first Rc plane was hal debolt -live wire , my dad (god bless him in heaven ) bought me the plane for my 16 birthday . I built it myself and me and my dad covered it . He was a paperhanger and was amazed at how well monocote worked . If you want to complane about building anything , build a comet stick kit , I built a ton , then build a Gullow lol . I built a ton of Scientific Kits , does anyone remember them ??? formed light weight fuse made of balsa for 049 control line .Try to get a Gullow kit to fly , that is a great acconplishment , my first Gullow was the Arrow -great little plane

I love ARfs , for the good reasons , not complaning all this "stuff " I mean all of it in every post is about a hobby , none of it is worth getting your blood pressure up , builders , arf-ers , bla bla bla , we all big kids who love planes , someday we will all get along because its not that important lol