Cyclic_ Hardover

Unless I am reading this wrong, this plane "must" have the Evo 35gt and nothing else? No other 35cc except this? If this is so, they can keep it. This has all the slick doings of a monopolized setup between Evolution, H9 and the Officials to force buyers of this plane only to use the Evo 35gt.

After reading this, it killed my deal on this plane.

GR7Racer

The thought process behind only allowing the Evolution 35GT is to make an even playing field for everybody. That's why it's one airplane, one engine, and race supplied prop and fuel. No grand conspiracy here. There are other USRA classes with similar parameters. The Formula 1 GT class and the AT-6 class allow only one engine in stock form. Like it or not, it makes the racing very close and makes it a little easier for a new racer to be competitive right off the bat.

KMac

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

How about the MVVS 35, same engine different supplier?

Also, the rules say "spec aircraft". It will be tough to race them when they all look alike.

GR7Racer

We are going to stick with the Evolution 35 for now...it's set up for ignition and gas making it easy to operate. The little gas carb has a pump that will also make fuel delivery a non issue and tank placement less critical. Plus we will be supplying the fuel for the racers at the event and we only need to have one type of fuel. We also have a tech process that insures that the engines are stock and that could get complicated with different manufacturers, even when it's the same engine.

As for identification, we will most likely be using a system similar to the Q500 and Q40 folks with one of 2 different brightly colored stickers either on the right wing or left wing. Let's say we use pink and green fluorescent stickers. We would divide the racers into five groups. Group one would put the pink sticker on the top and bottom of the right wing panel (high wing in a turn). Group two would put the pink sticker on the left panel. Groups three and four would repeat that with the green sticker. The fifth group would have no sticker. The next day, we would reassign everybody into five new groups and hand out stickers again so you can race some of the people who were in your original group. Not a perfect system, but workable...

KennyMac

jfetter

I got one! I called my LHS today after finding out the one I have on order was not coming in until Monday instead of yesterday afternoon, and they had one in stock. I have to say, awesome fit and finish! The interior has plenty of room for my flight batteries (2 x EVO 6S2P 5000's, though the wing tube will require I insert them into the rear portion of the fuse and then slide forward and under the tube). So far I only unpacked and inspected everything, going to re-shrink a few trouble spots (nothing more than a minor stretch) this evening...

Jack

reincarnate

Hey jfetter... Can you give me an idea of what it's going to cost to run a plane this size with electric? Motor, ESC, Batteries? I'm going gas or glow (jury' still out), but I've always wondered what a big electric would cost to set up. Also what kind of flight times do you get with your set up? Just curious for the future.

Mikel-t

My Feedback: (12)

Hey Jack , can you take a minute and let us ( me) know what the dimension are from firewall to backplate and how wide is the cowl at the firewall?. I have a G-26 fresh from Ralph's ignitions and hope this is a match?> Thanks much. Mikel-t

jfetter

Mikel-t

The manual calls for 5 7/8" from the firewall to the drive washer, there is no room for anything else because unlike other planes with cowls that can be pulled slightly more or less over the fuse to accomodate, this one is already drilled because it fits tight against the airframe, there is one mounting position. The cowl is cavernous inside, i've included a few pics showing the size of the cowl (huge!), let me know if this isn't sufficient for you to determine fit...

Jack

jasonred007

Got mine today!!!!!!!!! now for the hard part POWER!!!! does anyone know about the fuji imvac motors??? I dont really want the evolutions on my plane and zenoahs seem to be heavy!!!! any body have any ideas????

jfetter

OK, my answer is by no means gospel, I have my own system and I beleive in only A-grade components plus I am a monster with batteries. People at the field clutch their heart when I open my field battery case with 10 FlightPower EVO 6S2P 5000 MAh packs ($395 a pop) because they just see the initial expense. When I started out, I would fly 2 packs and field charge them in between flights, it can be done but there is some down time. Every battery pack should take an hour to charge (LiPo's) because you always charge them at 1C, or 1 times the capacity. So for my 5000 MAh packs, I charge them at 5 amps (really 5000 MAh, their exact capacity in an hour). People have a hard time with this (I don't know why, it's quite simple) but if you always remember that, you'll see that flying for 15 minutes and then dropping in pack 2 and flying for another 15 minutes means you'll land and pack 1 will still have 45 minutes to charge.

Now the logical thought would be to add 2 more LiPo packs, even if the nearly $800 doesn't bother you, you can calculate that flying all 4 packs for 15 minutes, you would land and pack 1 would still have 15 minutes to charge. Also, you now have more than 1 pack charging at a time, so you have to bump up the number of chargers you have (not too bad, the AstroFlight 109 is still one of the best chargers and only $129). But that comes at a cost as well because charging 2 x 5000 packs at 1C requires a 12-volt draw of nearly 11.5 amps, too much for your small lead acid starter batteries (I had 3 in parallel and I'd drain them before 2 packs were charged, not actually drained but too low to keep the sustained 13.8 volts the chargers need to not error out). This means a heafty car or marine battery or a 12-volt source like a 20 amp DC converter.

If you add in allowing the packs to cool to ambient temperature before charging (always best practice), you quickly come to the conclusion that flying a lot with electric really boils down to how many batteries you bring with you. You can charge at the field sure but if you really, really like to fly and stay in the air as much as possible, it's hard to have a charging system that can keep up with less than 3 chargers running simultaniously and 6 flight packs. This system works, I did it for a long time but finally I decided that I would just buy more packs. The difference was that I would try and buy packs that would be ideal in most planes by themselves or the right size to run in series with the larger 2-meter planes I knew I would end up with. I chose 6S but 5S would have been a great choice as well. Most .60 - .90 sized planes require a 5S to fly well but really a 6S to have a kick. Likewise most 2 meter or larger warbirds require 8S to 10S, so if I use 2 of my 6S packs in series for a 12S pack, I get kick to spare (though this comes at a cost because I have to oversize my motor and speed controller so they don't fry, which really translates to more money).

OK, what's it all mean? It's just different than glo/gas, no harder, just new things to learn. Once you get in to electric it all starts to make sense, you'll go from smaller foamies, perhaps indoor helis to .40/.60 planes, perhaps even more to the larger stuff, I guess it depends on your ability to rationalize spending money up front for batteries that are really comparable to buying your glo fuel a few years in advance. I crash and destroy 2 of my 6S 5000 packs and I am out the plane, electronics plus $800 in "fuel". I wont get the chance to get my moneys worth from those 2 packs, that can be hard to accept for some. Truth is if the LiPo gets 300 charge cycles (about what the manufacturers say it should), I will be flying for a fuel cost of $1.25 per flight (1 pack) or $2.50 (when I use 2 in series), not really out of line with glo though more than gas. But if you factor in my plane balances the same before and after the flight, my motor needs no tuning, it runs the same hot, cold, humid, dry and there is no cleanup, you might find that preferable as I do.

Here's the cost of my e-flight components for my Fliton Inspire 60 for an example of startup cost;
Axi 4130/16 outrunner motor - $189
Jeti 75 amp Spin ESC - $199
FlightPower EVO 5000 MAh LiPo - $375 (I get 12 minutes of "strong" flying)

This combination equates to about 145 watts/lb. a retio that says unlimited vertical and the ability to easily hover (150watts/lb is the goal if that is your desired flying style). You don't need a glo engine or a throttle servo so the cost of the electric motor is a wash, if you buy 2 batteries, then the difference is $950 over glo (ESC (speed controller) plus 2 battery packs). This $1,000 does not cover LiPo chargers, 12-volt converters for field charging, WhattMeter and Spin controllers for tuning, etc. Bottom line is you will need to spend more than $1,500 if you have no components over the cost of the regular glo version. If you are talking about the Sundowner which will use 2 of these LiPo packs in series and require a 100 amp speed controller and larger motor, the numbers are even higher. For me it's not an issue because I have been flying larger electrics for close to 4 years, I have a substantial invenstment in LiPo's so that is not a charge I see (I do recognise the investment though and the time to keep them all balanced and charged properly). I guess in the end it comes down to what you like, it's a hobby after all, it's supposed to make you happy while you have fun...

(sorry for the essay!)

Jack

reincarnate

Wow. Thats all. Wow. I'd have to start over. You sound like you have it all down though. Thanks for the information. I think I'll stick with the fuel power for now, but you gave enough information to get someone started spending money. Good report.

McCoy

My Feedback: (5)

HI fellows I really don't understand what all the fuss is about with what powerplant to install in this plane.There is only two engines that should go in this plane. That is the MOKEI 1.80 & 2.10 period ! If you want to race with speed and excitement these are the true powerplants. Afteral these motors are already being used in the Dominator class. The Mokei 2.10 with a 17x14 apc prop will be unstopable. That why I can't understand why the racing rules where limited to the 35cc gas. The Mokei will run circles around this engine.
Now considering electric to have real speed and be competitive you will problely need $1500-1800 in esc, batteries,and motor.
The average person with this plane will never spend $1500-$1800 on fuel.
Now that I think about it the people that distribute the kit is the same ones that distribute the engine. Maybe they have a in the rules committee. I think it should be open up to any 30-35cc engine gas,glow. 2stroke,4stroke. electric. Thanks just my two cents.

Cyclic_ Hardover

That is a good point but my choice on the two would be the 2.10 and the BGX. I have the BGX on a P 51. Flys good.

reincarnate

From what I've read on this thread and the one in the scale racing thread, the Sundowner will be an entry level class to give people an "affordable" (whatever) class to put an airplane in. The pilots skill would be the deciding factor in the race, not the engine. All airplanes equal at the start. Besides, how many guy's will buy this airplane to race at a USRA competition? Put whatever you want in it and fly it at your field of choice!

Mikel-t

My Feedback: (12)

Thanks Jack, for going the extra mile with the photos. I've got it under control and am NOT using one of the aforesaid racing motors, cause I'm not racing. Different strokes for different folks, and good luck with the coversion. Mike

jfetter

Your welcome and I couldn't agree more, put what you want in it and fly the way you want to. I saw the picture in a magazine and fell in love with the look of this plane on-the-spot, I frankly didn't even know it was a racing plane and couldn't care less now that I do know. I fly to have fun and fly things that look interesting, this one is certainly interesting. This ARF is also very, very well built, the size is perfect for electric conversion (interior has to be the right size and shape) with easy access through a very nicely built and fit canopy hatch, the electronics are cake to mount thanks to well designed and built servo bays (even has the slot cut for the wire nub to fit through), what else do you need to say!

Jack

jfetter

McCoy,

I'm not sure what you mean by fuss, we're all excited about this plane and talking what we plan to put in it, that's what this thread is for. I don't think anyone is really upset or confused by the motor/engine options except one guy who doesn't like that he'll have to comply with a preset configuration if he wants to race (racing isn't my cup of tea, I really have no opinion on that). As for spending $1,500 - $1,800, while it may be true the average guy won't, I am and I thought it would be nice to share the electric option with the other folks in this thread so we can all see what others are doing. My choice of motor is not meant to be superior or inferior to anything else, just what I choose...

Jack

kochj

Hmm
Well just joined this discusion, as I didn't know this one had started, but I had thought the entry fee's would be in the 150$ mark for racing but actually scaled to 50$ mark. Sounds fun to me.
I think the reason to run the gas engines is to have a very easy, fuss free, entry class plane into the racing world. If you want to race the MOki then race that same class that still is using them. Moki is not a up and runnig company last time I checked, sure MARK, but it is still scetchy. I am sure this was a part of the desicion making of this class. Zenoah? Well you can go race the Giant speck class that this plane is going to replace!! GO grab a Zenoah g80 twin and have a ball. sure there are always arguments on either sides and you can never have perfect harmony when you put rules in affect, but the decision is a decision for now, it may change or may not , but they decided on the 35gt for a engine ruling.


What about runing a SOLO prop??

You can adjust the pitch to what ever you want for max speed OR fun flying! W/o changing props. I guess though in a governed class this wouldn't work well, plus the weight factor of the solo hub assembly.
I guess I answered my own question!


Just my 2-cents

kochj

Also there is the ZDZ 40 F3A
This is light as a 26cc gas but has the extra unmph to get the speed up.... Too bad this was not the egnine of choice!! Seems more cutting edge, but little more spendy! Purhaps thas why?? Not sure about that though, If you spend 800$ to 1000$ on plane, what is a 100-200 more???? Really????

Justin

reincarnate

Ok I can't find the ZDZ 40 F3A anywhere. Still trying to decide what engine I'll use. Not planning on racing, just weekend sport flying and the enjoyment of cranking up a speed plane once in a while. The build thread I started has kind of died, since I haven't done anything except re-working servo wires so I don't have extensions from the wings and tail to contend with. Any one with more engine experience than me (basically everyone including the family dog) keep posting powerplant ideas. I am leaning toward the Saito 180 but have also looked at a YS 160 DZ and the Evo 26 GT.

balsafire

My Feedback: (4)

I got mine on last Friday and the airframe was done on Saturday. This is my 3rd H9 ARF and so far I'm really happy with their stuff. This is the fastest one I've ever assembled but that gear was a real PITA[:@]. I finally cheated and put the bolts in through the fuse and the ny-lock nuts on the outside. I've been kicking around the engine choice since I first ordered it and was leaning towards the recomended Evo 35gt but I've decided to go with the O.S. BGX-1 3500 for two reasons. 1, I already have it and 2, I already know it's fast. I'm ordering a custom exaust fron JTEC(thanks al) which is basically a larger version of their in cowl muff with an enlarged exit tube bent to exit at the egg shaped cut out in the fuse. I thought about a tuned pipe but 28" of 2 1/4" pipe hanging off the bottom of my fuse, NAH. The noise will be high but what racer isn't and noise is not a factor at our feild. I also plan on running the Perry VP30 pump to keep the fuel consistent and eliminate the need for a pressure nipple. With a Mezjlic 16x12 prop I'm hoping for 9500+ rpm and a top speed around 150 mph[8D]. Obviously, not set up for the spec class but I would like to strap on the gasser and fly at Parker later this year if work allows but we'll see. If I get to it should be an easy swap.

I've got Brad at badbradgraphics.com working on a scheme and my plane will be the proto-type for his new package. He also "tweaks" his packages for custom stuff and will include whatever number you want which would be great for the guys planning on the spec racing class, a lot easier and cheaper than recovering and his work is awesome.

I should have all the radio gear installed by this weekend and will install the engine when I get the muff. If all goes well I should get to maiden in about 10 days. This is my first racer but there are a few quikie guys at our feild. We'll see how she stacks up.

Happy flyin' all,
Rod

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

They are here:

http://www.rcshowcase.com/html/ZDZ/zdz40f3a.html

reincarnate

Oooooh. Papa likes!

GR7Racer

Balsafire...

Keep us posted on the graphics, that sounds interesting...

Good luck and we hope to see you in Parker.

KMac

reincarnate

Balsafire, can you describe or pics of design for the Showtime? Brads graphics look great and I'm looking foreward to seeing this design.