Balsinator

I don't like the fact that we are buying so many products from so many foreign countries, especially China. I often think about the kind of products that could be manufactured here in the US. For example I chose to buy a pair of Whites boots which are made in Spokane Washington. I did that after shopping at Sportsmans Warehouse and discovering that all my favorite brands of boots were coming from China. It cost me an extra hundred to buy American which for me was worth it. I had thought that some of the high end planes were made here but came to find out they were manufactured by companies like CMP.
I have recently started to play with electric flight and found there are a few American companies making components and on average were 30 to 40 % higher in price. I intend to make a conscious effort to by their products in the future.
Now to my question. How much more would you be willing to pay for a good quality American made ARF? As far as I know and I don't know much, there aren't any American companies making them now. If there are please post that info.
I wasn't sure where to post this thread but since the question is aimed at ARF enthusiasts this seemed like the best place. Thanks

CCFPILOT

I think if there were any, they would be looking for a bail out from uncle sam.

krayzc-RCU

My Feedback: (31)

ChuckW

With the cost for skilled labor here in the US and the shrinking pool of those skilled workers anything that did get produced would likely be extraordinarily expensive. That's not even taking in to account taxes, EPA, liability, etc.

If an ARF product were produced though and it good enough to justify the price, I'd buy it. I see nothing wrong with buying a Chinese made product either so long as it is a quality product from a reputable manufacturer and not anything dangerous or copied from someone else.

Ram Jet

I just bought a Brodak Oriental ARF for $110.00. I am faily certain it was made in China. Would I buy it if it cost $400.00 and made in America? No, I'd build my own. I could not buy a kit and build an Oriental for $110.00. Would you build me an Oriental C/L with all the major parts included except spinner, engine and fuel tank? If you would I've got some work for you to do sir.

Bill

Charlie P.

The only American made ARFs I've seen are pattern ships - $1,500 to $6,000 a pop.

I'm unwilling to pay that. [X(]

I'd pay 30% more for American made in a sport model -if it was made as well.

flaminheli

Seeing how most of these so called highend ARFs are already outrageously priced just because someone sticks thier name on it, I really don't see how they could raise the price any more and actually sell any of them. Well maybe there are people out there that are so narrow minded that they would spend and do spend the extra money just so they can say "I have a such and such Yak". Everyone complains about gas prices and price gouging, but they are to ignorent to realize they just got gouged when they paid $650.00 for a $300.00 plane just because it is sold by such and such. Wake up America. No I would not pay more for a plane built in the U.S. Why would you want to when you can get just as good quality from China. Please don't even start the BS about customer service.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Is skilled labor really required? I don't know. If it's putting pre-cut wood into jigs and applying glue, probably not.

Beyond the ARFenomics involved, it's really a question of consumer behavior. There simply will be equivalent models from overseas that would likely be much less expensive, sold by fly-by-night shops that have no interest in the long-term health of the hobby. Some examples certainly come to mind quite readily, eh? Look at the QQ Yak and the Nitroplanes copy. I've seen someone here who purchased the NP copy, and refers to it as a QQ Yak in conversation. Is he ashamed? Is it because he'd like to think that he has the genuine article? I don't know.

People don't always have a lot of scruples, and in order for an American made ARF consumers would have to care about more than their pocketbook. People lie, cheat, and steal from people they personally know. They won't care two bits about buying a rip-off product. They don't care how their actions affect the future of the hobby. That future is likely to have a lot of low-quality products and support. Isn't it delightful?

octanehuffer

The difference is rather quite simple. There are competetors and then there are sport fliers. Ever seen a generic brand winning competetions? I want you to tell me who sells a 650$ plane that is only worth 300$. Prove your point by providing the design, tooling, shipment, prototype, etc costs. Name one company who sells planes for 350$ more just because there is somebody's name on the box. You are comparing a Ford Escort to a Ferarri, and I have never seen an Escort win Lemans. Just because they both have 4 tires and commute people to and fro, does not put them in the same catergory.
Oh yeah, the customer service from the big guys is great. Better products too. Every once in a while, I like to read through the NP forum. There are threads and pages of people complaining that their 50$ kit was missing this and that, or this was broken. It makes me laugh. I cant say that there are threads or pages of complaints from the "big guys". In fact there are threads of how well customers were treated, and how great the service is. Never seen that from the imitators.

MikeL
I see I'm not the only one who has noticed others bragging about buying a NP Yak and call it a QQ. It must stroke their ego.

I WILL definatly pay more for an American made product. So long as it meets my requirements. I bought an Evolution 45 over a DA 50 because of the handy auto choke feature. Both engines were the same price. I am currently spending $2400 at DA for a complete DA 170/tuned pipe/headers/prop setup. Already recieved the complete exhaust and prop. They had everything I was looking for and met my constraints. I was just about to pull the trigger on a ZDZ set up, but the DA service and manufacturing is in America. Am I paying more? You bet. I would do it for ARF's too.

NorfolkSouthern

The Mojo 40 ARF is made in the United States, and is considered by many to be the best 3D profile plane on the market. It sells for $179.00, the same as the Chinese-made Hangar-9 Twist. Manufacturing ARFs can indeed be done in the States, and I am perhaps one of a small number of people who would be willing to pay a little more for better quality and parts availability.

Hangar-9 has nearly doubled the price of their products over the last year, but that has not stopped people from buying them. I will not justify a Twist 3D when I can get a Great Planes Dazzler of the same quality for $70.00 less. They're both made in the same country overseas anyway. The exception would be if Hangar-9 were to move their production out of China and start making them locally, where the quality of construction can be more closely scrutinized while helping the local economy. It's the least a company can do if they want to creat more jobs that would allow people to stay in the hobby.

NorfolkSouthern

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Some people just can't understand that R&D costs money. I don't know if they think that because, say, two Edge 540 models look the same they are the same, or if they just don't understand that those who design ARFs have families to feed. It's like any sort of intellectual property dispute. There will be people who get it, people who get it but won't admit it, and those that just aren't capable of understanding. I've got no problems with people who can't cognitively understand the concepts involved, just as I don't have any problem with people who aren't as bright as I might hope for them to be - - we all are what we are. It's the people who attempt to justify their theft (or their role in someone else's theft) that bother me. Most of them wouldn't think it is alright to buy stolen electronics out of the back of a van, but because they're purchasing a stolen design in what appears to be a legit way, they don't see it as wrong. There's a moral disconnect there that can only be ascribed to character issues and greediness. If you can't afford the real deal, that's life. Change your priorities, your life situation, or accept that we can't all have what we want all of the time.

This is why any American-made ARF would likely fail. People would expect outstanding performance, design, service, and support for a price that they pay for products built in slave-labor conditions.

People are always going to do what they're going to do. I just wish they'd be honest about it, and not attempt to sugar-coat the moral issues involved. Then again, I don't really expect someone like that to be honest. It's character, and you either have it or your don't.

As light industry slowly returns to viability here, it may be possible for US made ARFs to be viable, too. The trick is to produce them at a comparable cost to what it costs to produce them in China. If that can't be done, designs will be stolen and prices will be undercut by those who don't bear the burden of developing the product. There are just too many people like flaminheli in the hobby now.

NorfolkSouthern

It can be done, Mike. Robots can be set up to do the repetitive tasks of frame assembly, right down to the covering of some parts while humans can do the finer details and inspection. The main capital expense would be the machinery and technology. When I lived in Minnesota, there was a great demand for those who had CNC experience, and I believe much of that had to do with companies in your area, like Medtronic and Onan Corporation (is Onan still there?) to name a couple. From what I remember, Toro even had a factory in Shakopee for their reel-type mowers, along with an engineering facility there. In other words, there are people in your state with the necessary skills to set up and run a line, believe it or not.

But, should Medtronic and other medical device companies go overseas like the garment and toy factories, then all those skills will eventually be lost. That, and the jobs that go along with them. Sadly, I have this sick feeling that it's already starting to happen.

NorfolkSouthern

frank99

My Feedback: (29)

10000.00 for a dp p-18 super cub, cemark has his rights to the plane , some time in 09??? thanks frank

ram3500-RCU

My Feedback: (221)

I build Depron jets, designed by several guys here in the states, both ARF and RTF, in my basement. I use parts laser cut by 6MM FlyRC, also here in the states. Unfortunately, Depron can not be found domestically manufactured. It is a foam product that is very strong, very light, and used in other parts of the world as underlayment for example, but it is highly flammable. Probably why we don't widely use it here. Works great for model construction though.

Now I don't consider myself a 'manufacturer' as all my creations are hand made, one at a time, but part of the reason I do what I do, is because I personally hate not having an option. I think my planes are better than the most of the foam mass produced crap coming out of China, because: I am also a pilot, have 40 years experience with RC, understand today's systems, have an eye for detail, I select the best materials and supplies, enjoy what I do and sincerely want others to enjoy what I do. Many of these reasons were present in the beginning, for most of the domestic manufacturers of old.

That spirit is still around, but 'free trade' has made it economically difficult to afford. I still insist, and one of my club buddies and also a hand builder of quality wood planes, Miles Reed says, the average modern ARF will not see 100 flights before it falls apart. All too many people care more about price than quality. We have become a throw-away society. In the hobby, that translates into guys having 15 'cheap' planes, instead of two or three quality ones. With only one exception that I know of (you know who you are) you can only fly one plane at a time.

This country has moved from a 'manufacturing consumer' base, to a 'consumer' base. Unfortunately, it is industry that fuels the middle class, which drives the economy. I see the present situation in our economy to be like a good fast Nascar that always ran up front. Always at the top, from Superior engineering and manufacturing, to skilled driving, and professional support. But now, the owners have bought cheap mass produced foreign parts, hired cheap labor to cut overhead, and lost the support of the industry it represented. As a result, this car has lost it's edge, is breaking down, and is receding back through the ranks it once led, taking other cars with it, and isn't winning anything.

My little building efforts and those like mine persist because of pride in what we do, a desire for quality, and the support of others who feel the same way we do, and are willing to pay a little more to get a better product. You know who you are. Don't give in. Hopefully, that will continue.)

Zippi

My Feedback: (10)

I've been flying for a pretty good while and most of the time I don't look at the price as much as I look at the style of plane I'm looking for, quality, and how it flys once I research it. Now, I do have to say that a $1,500 high end plane is about like a $50,000 car and me buying it. It ain't going to happen. It's not that the product may not be worth the money it's just that I'm not going to pay that much money for it. We all know that manufactures of ARF's are trying to make products that people will like and fly and most of all be affordable but sadly to say it's at the cost of quality. How many times have we heard are experienced ourselfs the covering pealing or the clear seperating from the pigment, not having enough glue in the joints, sheeting being to thin, and most of all support or I should say the lack of. If I'm going to pay a lot higher price for an ARF the quality and support has to come first.

IAMKAOS

i question the ethic's of some of the american vendors who sell the import arfs. i just got burnt bad by one of these mail order vendors a couple months ago. selling a product that they knew had problems but sell them anyway and at the same time telling me they have had very few complaints about the product which i found out later was absolutley not true. then i find out they recently they corrected the problem with the product. maybe if they manufactured their own this would not happen.

LuftwaffeOberst

If it was a Non-Union or Private Company and it could compete with the foreign market... and had scale aircraft in different sizes, and the quality was as good as a Hanger 9 or better, heck yea! [8D]

But the reality is... I don't think it's ever going to happen. Cost of living and taxes in the United States is terrible. My LHS lost money this Christmas season... I'll do my personal best to keep my friends hobby shop in business, and I hope the rest of you will with yours... as well.



www.redneckrc.com

outdoorhunting

Ya, I seen on the news this AM. Larry Flint,of "penthouse" & the guy that does "Girls Gone Wild" are asking for a gov. bailout !! The newsman said it was only for 4 billion !! I don't have a whole lot of faith in the Feds, but if they give into that, I think it's time to sell out & move to "Aussie Land".

tlandon

My Feedback: (15)

There will never be an American builder of fairly priced ARF's. They wont be able to come any where close in pricing. 99.9% of everything you buy for RC is made in China, Vietnam, Thailand or Japan. Thats the way its been for quite a while and is not going to change. If you want to pay more just because its made in America, knock yourself out.
In the mean time I will have just as good an airplane as you do, but more of them.

PS, I recently found a Chinese company that sells 3S 11.1 20C 2200 MaH batteries with Dean Plugs installed for $12.99 each. If you were to buy in the US they are anyhere from $60 and up. I also found another Chinese company that sell 325mm Carbon Fiber Main Heli Blades for $14.99 compared to $34 and up. Pretty much a no brainer for me. And by the way the quality is very good.

IAMKAOS

you hit it right in the bullseye........whats the name of the chinese company with those inexpensive lipos....do they sell edf jets?

tlandon

My Feedback: (15)

www.hobbycity.com
www.dealextreme.com

ChuckW

I agree 110% but good luck convincing people who don't get it.

vasek

My Feedback: (4)

I'lltell you this.
If a US company could sell an ARF where you wouldn't have to waste the retracts& all the hardware, where there wouldn't be much to "beef up" or "redo" "re-glue" and "re-think" the hinges and so forth... it could sell it for quite more and still be wort it.I think.

Just add up how much it costs to upgrade retracts, tanks, hinges, horns....

rclement

My Feedback: (1)

Well, unfortunately people look at price first and buy accordingly. I was at Chinamart, excuse me, Walmart recently and was in need of some food storage containers and there were some made in China and some made in the US. I bought US. We may never get rid of the overseas markets but it never hurts to buy US when you can. It's a small step but it took a lot of small steps to get us into the situation we are in now.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

There have always been USA builders services, even before ARFs. I just read the blurb from one who will build your plane to RTF or leave it for you to set up the control equipment.

He will build your small glow plane for $200 to $400,
50CC size for $500 to %750,
100CC size $800 to $900,
150CC & larger $1000 to $1500,
and perhaps a bit more for some composites.

I'm sure there are others. I would venture a guess that the labor would cost about the same.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson