We often gripe over the markup our LFS applies to their stock or the price we pay from an online store in our own country but my experience is a lesson to be learnt for everyone tempted to buy direct from cheap overseas sources.

For quite a while, I had been keeping my eye on a couple of giant scale planes from these people: www.cyclonetoy.com but they claim to be manufacturers of a variety of planes and also sell direct through their online store.
Being located in China, they ship their goods to you via EMS Express Post.

Needless to say, I bought this plane from them but they stated it was an OEMof the Aeroworks Pitts Python (in the photo below).

When the plane arrived, I excitingly opened the box to find that in the packaging they hadn't taped down the fuselage in the box and it had rattled around inside, badly breaking the canopy.
I also noticed that it is in no way an OEM of the Aeroworks Pitts because a number of thinfs are fundamentally different including airfoil on the vertical stab and a different cabane arrangement. Only thing similar is the colour scheme.
Nevertheless, I really liked the plane (OEM or not) and contacted Cyclone for a replacement canopy.
They gave me a lengthy spiel about how this had been their only unit and more production wouldn't happen for several months but offered to send me the plastic canopy only and I could glue it down on the formers.
I asked them if that part would restore exactly what I had purchased and they stated that was the case so I agreed to that.

The other plane Ihad really liked from the photos was their 50cc YAK-54 (photo below)

Previously, I had expressed interest in it and we came to an agreement that as they were being helpful on the Pitts canopy, I would buy the YAK and they would put the Pitts canopy together with it in the box.
This time around, I asked them to insure the shipment but they talked me out of that and said I could much rather rely on their excellent after sales service.

Anyhow, the YAK arrived yesterday. My heart sank when I saw the contents of the box. The Pitts canopy plastic was there allright, heavily wrapped into bubble-wrap and foam and squeezed into the box together with the YAK. They had also jammed two pieces of styrofoam into the box between the YAK canopy and the Pitts one, putting enough pressure on the YAKthat it's canopy was also broken.
The replacement canopy for the Pitts also was not the "exact replacement" but simply a clear uinpainted and untinted piece of vacum formed plastic - raw material actually.

I immediately contacted Cyclone for their "excellent after sales service", - sent them several photos of exactly what was in the box including photos of the outside of the box to show that the box itself was fine.
They completely refused to help in any way and said "take this up with your post office".

My problem is that because of advice from Cyclone, the parcel was not insured and it actually came via Chinese EMS, not Australia Post so I have no case there.
Cyclone refuse to help at all so now I'm stuck with two large planes, one with a broken canopy that Icannot have replaced and another where Ihave to try to get it to fit, try to get the same colour paint and hope it actually fits.

If you purchase in your local country from a local dealer, at least you have some legal consumer protection. I don't believe you have any such when buying direct from an unscrupulous supplier in China.

<u>Let my experience be a warning to everyone not to get carried away by lower prices and order direct - at least not from Cyclone Toys.</u>

Does anyone here know a supplier of the same YAK-54 who can sell me a replacement canopy for it?</p>

Getting parts for a "copy" of another company's model can be almost impossible.
Chances are good that the factory does not make any spare parts.
Some of the models on the Cyclone site appear to be identical to those imported to the US by nitrplanes and several other dealers.
From what I read in these forums (and it must be true if it's on the internet), parts availability is poor at nitroplanes.
I've seen a couple of the models nitroplanes sells and they do look good and seem to fly well.

You could try getting the Aeroworks parts but it's anyone's guess if they would fit.

Thanks Carrell,

In regards to the canopies, Ithink Imight be able to fix the situation with the Pitts - with the YAK, I have found a store in the US that seems to import a lot of the same plane. I have sent them an e-mail and am waiting to see if they can help.

Another idea of mine was to try to glue up the YAK canopy the best I can and then make some sort of a mold. I could then get a clear Lexan sheet or similar and try to use a heatgun to form it into the mold.
I'm not much of a handyman when it comes to making clear canopies but I think there are a couple of guys in my club who are a far side better at that stuff than I am.

Iguess the moral of the story was a warning to anyone who wants to take the risk and order direct from outfits like the one that burnt me (twice).
I feel like a right fool being taken for a ride twice in the span of a few weeks and by the same people.

Stores like Cyclone are only interested in mass exports to resellers and don't seem to care much about situations such as mine.
Consumer protection under those circumstances is also non-existent and they know it!

I've said several times, and will say again:

What do the SOMETIMES higher prices at your LHS buy you?

RELATIONSHIPS.

You get a relationship with people you can see and talk to face to face.
You get a relationship with the other hobbyists that frequent that store.
You get the benefit of their relationship with their supplier(s).
You help them to maintain a relationship with your community.
Along with you, they form a relationship with your airplane(s).

These things pay dividends in so many incalculable ways...sometimes immediately (if, say, you need to replace a canopy), sometimes YEARS down the road (when you just can't quite sort out that little problem with your OS .61). Sometimes you don't even SEE the benefit of the relationship...like when your LHS donates a trainer to a local school who's teaching aviation and aerodynamics to local kids...who go on to become modelers, or pilots at the local FBO.

I'll certainly admit...very few of us have unlimited budgets for our hobby. I certainly don't. There ABSOLUTELY are times where the dollar amounts can not be overlooked. You have to examine your own budget, your own willingness to save money, whatever...and decide for yourself where that "I can't pass up $X or X% of savings" point is.

But just remember...every purchase at your LHS buys something more than an airplane or a part...

They buy relationships.

Well said!
Like others, I got sidetracked by the potential savings but look where it got me ! - Two large planes, both damaged and no resolution in sight.
I saved up for those planes and the shame of it is that I could have bought locally for an amount not much higher than I ended up paying.

I even offered Cyclone to pay for the postage of a replacement canopy but they made it abundantly clear that they were not replacing anything!

I'm trying very hard not to post any inflamatory statements here and stay 100% factual but underneath, I'm boiling with anger !

This may not be the right forum for thaat but can anyone make recommendations as to how best to make up a new canopy for this plane?
It is basically a clear plastic sheet vacum formed and sitting on a plywood frame.
The frame is OK but the plastic is broken (see photos)

I also included a photo to show how they packaged the plane. See the white styrofoam that has been pushed down next to the canopy? It is bent from the pressure and has pushed back the far side of the box

if it were me id take it up with my credit card provider! keep all emails etc.. I've done it before and gotten refunded.

I, personally, happen to be a fan of dark canopies you can't see through. That being the case, I'd probably just go at it with some sort of filler/glue, glass/etc, not worrying about the inside, and just smooth and then paint the outside.

Obviously not an option if you wish a visible cockpit...but if not, it might be an easy/inexpensive alternative.

I paid them via Paypal but the problem is that their protection only applies if the goods don't show up - period.
Damaged or unusable good, they don't care about !

Cyclone have e-mailed me again and reiterated that they don't feel any responsibility - nor to they see any responsibility with EMS but lay it fairly and squarely at my feet.
They claim it must be the courier who delivered from the post office to my place!
Absolutely ridiculous statement !
I'm located 5 minutes away from the mail distribution centre and I personally received the parcel. I saw how it was handled and there was nothing abnormal about that. Nor did the packaging have any damage to it!

I admit I'm pretty cheesed off!

I'll copy in some snippets of correspondence for everyone to make up their minds: (I have taken out my personal e-mail address for privacy reasons)

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: Arial">From:<span> [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, 31 May 2009 7:08 PM
To: </span></span></span><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: Arial">
Subject: Re: RE: Package - from Cyclone,Amanda</span></span><o></o></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: Arial"></span></span></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: Arial">And the Yak54 50CC is with good package actually, so please do not worry about it. And we are trying to find the best way to make the package well enough to protect the two items. </span></span></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: Arial">As for the insurance, we also have such experience before, for multinational trade, insurance works well for ocean shipping etc. It offers comprehensive service. But for express shipping order, due to the involve of express agent, the thing is a little complicated. When damages happeded, the insurrance company will fly from China to Australia for investigation, you will be the target to help them on it, which often takes a long time and much energy.I am not sure what is your opinion on it. But now, on order(shipped via express), what we do is strengthen the package and offer good after-sale service.

<font color="#000000">Note the comment re after sales service

I responded:

</font></span></span></p><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt"><span style="color: #0000ff">From:
To: sales804@cyclonetoy.
Date: 2009-5-31 17:36:11
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Package - from Cyclone,Amanda</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #0000ff">Hi Amanda,</span><span style="color: #1f497d"><o></o></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span><o><span style="color: #0000ff"></span></o></span></span></p><span style="color: #0000ff"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o></o></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt">Many thanks for all of that.</p></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #1f497d"><o></o></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span><o><span style="color: #0000ff"></span></o></span></span></p><span style="color: #0000ff"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o></o></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt">In that case, I will forget the insurance and take the Red YAK.</p></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #1f497d"><o></o></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #0000ff">I will forward you the payment tonight or tomorrow morning.
</span><span style="color: #ff0000"><span>
</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span>After I had reported the damage and sent them several photos showing exactly how the packaging had damaged the contents of the box, I got this reply:

</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: ">From:</span><span style="font-family: "> [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 5:54 PM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: Payment for AG014 YAK-54 50CC</span></span><span style="font-family: "><o></o></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o><span style="color: #ff0000"><font face="Calibri"></font></span></o></p>

</p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: ">I am sad to hear that. The foam between the two canopies are to protect them better, it is workable all the time. Unfortunately it is accused by you as a wrong packing. As you said, bad delivery could ends damage with the outer box. Try to imagine, if the box is throwed onto a tough surface rudely, apparantly it will not cause any problems with the box, but badly to the inner items. Do you agree with me?</span></span></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: ">And now the key is that we should make sure there is a normal delivery to despatch the box to you. If they despatch in the same way, no matter how many pieces we compensate to you, how strong the package couldbe,the result is still the same -they comes to you damaged. Isn't it a vicious circle? you pay -we send -bad handling - damaged - compensate - bad handling - damaged - compensate........ It is unfair to both of us, do you agree with me?</span></span></p>

<span style="font-family: ">And later this:

<span style="font-size: x-small"><span id="1244622653811S" style="display: none"></span><span style="color: #ff0000">From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 7:17 PM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: Payment for AG014 YAK-54 50CC</span></span><o></o></span></p>

<span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ff0000">We understand your feelings. But now we should stand by to solve the problem together. Don't you think delivery handling is also an important factor? We now discuss with you to solve it together, but you refuse any suggestions. If we send the canopy again, it is broken again by wrong delivery, shall we compensate once again? It is a vicious circle as I said in the previous e-mail. Unfair to both of us. The foam is to protect the items. It is also why all fragile products such as electrical appliance,PCare packed with foam to protect them. And it seldom broke under such a packing way, so we need your help on it.</span></span></p>

<span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ff0000">As for the insurance thing, at that moment, we suggest you on it also to save time and energy for you, it is just a suggestion. Because you found long time investigation takes time and energy, so you discard it. We are trying to help you on it now, but if you refuse any suggestion, it will make the matter hard.</span>
</span>
I guess the outcome is that it is an $1,100 lesson for me in the basics.

(if this wasn't a public forum, I'd add some less than polite words here)
But .... everyone judge for themselves
</p>

Sorry - I just had to add ths one .... classic!

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif""><font size="2">From:</font></span><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif""><font size="2"> [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 June 2009 5:29 PM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Payment for AG014 YAK-54 50CC</font></span></span><span style="font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif""><font size="2"><o></o></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o><span style="color: #ff0000"><font face="Calibri" size="2"></font></span></o></p>

</p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Sorry for the late reply.</span></span><o></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Maybe you are not so familiar with the EMS network. If they ship parcels oversea, there should be local courier for them to deliver the items to customers' door. So they shouldhave the contract with Australian post office. Nowa seldom(actually happened the first time)incident happened twice, apparantly it is the problem caused during the shipping. Yes, good after-sale service could be fine. I guess you have felt it last time. We compensate one for you though we understand it is caused by rude delivery. And thistime, we discussed for the best way to pack them,good protection. But it is stillbroken.Everybody knows that damages during shipping will be not in the range for guarantee. I beg your understandings. And some customers repair it withgluewater, is it ok for you to try it?</span></span><o></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Best regards!</span></span><o></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">Amanda

</span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"">So their customers just fix the mess with "gluewater" ? ...... LMAO
Excellent aftersales service?</span></span></span></p>

I deal with Chiese Engineers (from the UK) on a daily (well hourly I suppose) basis. I'm an electronics engineer.
My experience with them is that I tell them, tell them again, and again; reject the first set of samples, tell them some more, explain that what they supplied is (a) not better than what I want and (b) not anything like what I want, reject the second batch of samples, have some made in the UK to keep the project alive, lose the will to live and eventually design in what they can give me.

I'd never, EVER, buy from China without credit card protection and then I'd only use the card that I have authorised for a few hundred bucks credit limit and internet transactions only.

Think of this as an opportunity to become a real aeromodeller by vac-forming your own canopy!

I guess the reason Ibought an ARF was to avoid having to work on that

Further e-mails from Cyclone:

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-family: "><font size="2">From:</font></span><span style="font-family: "><font size="2"> [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 June 2009 8:01 PM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Payment for AG014 YAK-54 50CC</font></span></span><span style="font-family: "><font size="2"><o></o></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><o></o></p>

</p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: ">Thanks for your letter.</span></span><o></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: ">Now the key is not compensation etc, but how shall we do if they are broken again?We havementioned it several times, but no response from you.We pay for their faults once again? We suggest you give a feedback to the post office, you refused. So after we send the two canopies to you, if they are broken once again,what shall we do for you?What we said are all suggestion, but the final decision is up to you. We should make it clear.</span></span><o></o></p>

<span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: ">Waiting for your news.</span></span><o></o></p><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: ">Amanda</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "> <br style="mso-special-character: line-break" /></span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "><br style="mso-special-character: line-break" />I admit I'm tired of them now. I have told them I will not pursue the matter any further and I have also told them I reserve the right to share the story (including correspondence) with fellow modellers so that they can judge for themselves.
Now is not the time for compensation?????
If we send you replacement and they break that too????

I operate a small services business. If Ido a job for a customer, stuff it up, - do I tell the customer that I won't compensate them in case Istuff up again!
I'm sick of these people! </span>

psuguru - I sure can relate exactly to your experiences and have been chuckling ever since reading it.

You should try living there sometimes

Here is a quote from a business I dealt with last year (not an RC related one - it was a tractor manufacturer). I have translated it into English so more can have a laugh at it.

<u>"You think we cheated you? - Ha - any other supplier would have cheated you a lot more"</u>

Yep - can't beat that argument can we.

That quote was over a tractor that I imported (for a customer) - I went to the factory, witnessed the items being tested prior to shipping and took photos of everything - Lo and behold - most of the Implements that arrived had mysteriously changed color and didn't actually fit on the machine. (Yes, I know, I should have witnessed the container being loaded and sealed, but didn't have the time to be there for the extra days it would take to clean everything down prior to loadout.

It cost me about an additional A$8000 to rectify all the faults that mysteriously happend "during shipping" (Including a steel cover for a rotary tiller that hadfitted on the test implement but had "mysteriously" grown to be over 2" too long to fit the implement that arrived). A lot to fix on a contract that had an original total value of about A$50,000

When I finally got my "retribution" on them (They no longer have an export license for their goods - mind you - I was never compensated for my loss) - they told my Manager over here that "Steve doesn't understand Chinese people and is bad mannered" - Yep - they got part of that right at least- hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

sometimes, I think there is more culture in a tub of yoghurt.

Having said that, there are some truly GREATpeople and businesses there - it just takes a LOTof effort sometimes to find them and when you do, they are genuinely good to deal with.

it is sad to hear that you have such poor experiences with china. i am part of a management team that runs a chinese plant and let me tell you, it is with great effort and pain that we are able to produce quality products. the internet has opened up a whole new way of scamming. i'm not saying that they are out to trick you but that they simply don't need to be responsible for their actions. we deal with suppliers that are happy NOT to sell to you as there are many other people out there that are easier to work with. when you catch them cheating, they simply ask "so what now?". some of them will laugh it off with a compliment "you're pretty smart". the attitude is simple "i do what it takes to make myself money. you pay me so little so i have to cheat you. if you catch me at it, so what? what are you going to do? sue me?" in china the whole attitude is caveat emptor. don't come whining to me because you didn't see the tractor all the way into the container and something went wrong. don't whine at me that your little itty bitty canopy has a weetty bitty cracky in it. don't yell at me because i decided to change some parts because the stock room was so messy that i couldn't find the one on the BOM.

there is a reason why trading companies based outside china are still so prevalent. that is that chinese (mainlanders) are tough to deal with. even those with higher education, speak excellent english and have posh offices aren't to be trusted. of course, as in all areas of the world, any rash generalization would be... well.. rash. i've had the privilege of working and dealing with wonderful chinese as well. but even they grow eyes in the back of their heads.

caveat emptor - a chinese rule of thumb!</p>

Hey forestroke

Ain't that a fact - for sure

I can relate to every single word you wrote - (Plus some)

That's one way of putting it

I guess you have to learn to deal with those guys in order not to be scammed. !

Forestroke,
Dude,

I couldn't work out whether you were defending people who sell plastic powder as baby feed and drain cleaner as penicillin or not.
The whole Chinese economy seems to have an utter lack of ethical responsibility, from top to bottom, the basic ethos being "So what are you gonna do about it?"
And everyone keeps on doing business with them.

I recently bought the Seagull Spacewalker II 1.20 ARF from my localhobby shopand the price was cheaper than I could have bought it on line with the over sized shipping. I used to by airplanes online, but have switched to my local hobby shop now. I would hate to see any of them go belly up, as they are the people who got me started in this great hobby.

I buy my large items through AussieSteve (RCU member) with the embarrassing exception of the above and get top notch service.
Smaller items are bought from the local store in my town.

All of that mess can be avoided by buying from reputable companies.... I have never purchased a plane locally, the main reason is selection. HTown doesnt really carry much

GBoulton; Hey, its nice to have a hobby store like Hobby Lobby close by as well. Boy, I sure miss TN. I use to belong to MTRCS out of Nashville. Not sure how old you are, but I may know you????

Drop me a line,

juicesqueezer

Joe,

To be honest, I'm almost NEVER at Hobby Lobby. They just have almost nothing I'm interested in flying, and being down in laVergne, it's a bit of a hike out there. Good folks, don't get me wrong...just not well suited to my tastes.

I'm EXTREMELY lucky, however, to have PAC RC right down the road in Smyrna. Not sure when you left this part of the country, so they may not have been here when you were. They opened about 5 yrs ago, and have made themselves a real going concern. It's owned by Mike and Maureen Dunphy (you may know them, or their son Scott....the family's been big into RC for years, and Scott/Mike have laid up/sheeted/cut more foam wing cores and glass fuses than I knew existed *heh*). They're AMAZING people, and I'm lucky to call them friends as well as "my" LHS owners.

As for MTRCS, that's where i do much of my flying these days. Don't know if we've ever met or not...i've been flying 'regular" there for a couple seasons now...prior to that, I spent most of my time out at cane Ridge. If we haven't met, though, i'd sure wager we've flown with many of the same guys.

Thanks for the quick reply. No, I have not heard of the folks you buy from now, but will be heading up to TN in October and planning on bringing a plane with me, if I have room. I left there in 2001 and now reside in warm and great flying florida now. Hobby Lobby use to handle many kits and they were a constant source for parts, etc. Looks like they have gone more the electric route now. Just not into that. Just love the smell of glow and gas in the mornings. I am sure that we know some of the same folks if you fly with MTRCS.Saw Doug Whiteacre last year at the Castillian Springs field. Not sure if Jim Shacklett is still around. Some of the others I knew are gone now. Cane Ridge was just finished when I got out of the hobby for about 14 years. Our club split and went several ways and just lost interest. Motorcycles took over. Hope to bring up a Bucker Jungman that I am buiding now. Going with a 26cc for movement. This is an old CG kit.
Am planning on visiting a few of the clubs while I am up there. Hope to see you and your great looking Pitts.

regards,

Joe

By all means, as that time grows near, keep in touch. I'll introduce ya to the best LHS you could hope for, and treat you to the best burger and fry combo ever down in Murfreesboro...heck, we might even get a little flying done!

Agreed. Again, as I say, tehy've got some great people out there, and some folks that REALLY know the electric game. In fact, I fly with L.A. Johnston every so often, who retired from out there not long ago, and is probably one of THE best electric guys in the biz. So, like I say...sharp folks, good company...like you, though, I just don't have much interest in what they do.

Doug i know vaguely, Jim's name rings a bell, but I can't place him. I'd guess you probably ran across Tom nelson in your time out there. He's still around, and as much of a cantankerous craftsman as ever.

REALLY looking forward to seeing that airplane!

Don't hold out too much hope! *heh* First, I can tell you, pictures make it look a whole lot better than it is. It was one of my first builds, and a real challenge...fit and finish is nowhere near what I'd like it to be. It was a fantastic project, and I'm sure glad I did it...but I'd never let it see the light of day if I turned out something that clumsy these days.

Second, it's currently "in hibernation". I recently gutted nearly everything I own, including the motor from the Bulldog, to fund my current project, a 102" Red Bull Edge. Eventually I'll probably slide a 100 into the big Pitts, and at that time might just strip it and see if I can polish some things up, and put it on a bit of a diet...but I wouldn't bank on that happening THIS year. *heh*