Once we get to the plateau or level that we can take off, fly till the tank is empty, land safely then fly again and again till we get bored. What should we be able to do to demonstrate with our Autogyros we are certifiable as an Autogyro pilot. What is a beginner? What is an expert? Does it matter? Should we have particular manuvers that we are able to demonstrate to qualify as a pilot at any particular level? We have a few friends in our circle of friends that have many hours of piloting Autogyros and have what might be considered considerable skill and expertise. Is it possible these people might like some form of friendly competition when we gather in Muncie next September? What kind of events could we invent to expand our skills and interest in our very small part of the total RC hobby. Would the Autogyro event ever be part of the AMA competition in the future if we don't make something interesting out of our hobby? If we did have a competition, would commercial interest be willing to donate prizes to make the event something more than a gathering of friends?

Think about it, lets have some feedback and ideas to make this thing more than it is today.

Joel

In no particular order.

Minimum takeoff distance. (Favors high power)
Minimum landing distance. (favors low loading).
Combined takeoff/landing distance (add the two). (favors best compromise).
Full stop Spot landing.
Spot landing Touch and go.
Constant altitude/radius turns left and right.
Minimum radius turns.
Stall turn.
Loop.
Barrel roll.
Split S.
Immelman
Deadstick autorotation landing including a turn to a
bulls eye.
Hovering flight (wind allowing).
Low speed figure 8's
Ratio of maximum to minimum airspeed
(max and min averaged
upwind and downwind).
Longest time over 10 yards ( min airspeed)
(averaged upwind and downwind)
Rotor stop and restart in flight.

my 2 cents ...

Hello Mickey,

You have a fertile mind! I like all of your suggestions. The stopping the rotor and restarting is a good one. I accomplished that one day when I had a midair collision with a electric glider. My Simple G (Jim Baxter Design) and the glider came together for a short time when neither of us expected it. The glider spun down, the Simple G stopped forward flight and the rotor stopped at the same time, as it fell, the rotor resumed rotation and I made a controlled landing with no roll. The only other time I've been able to stop the rotor has been while holding inverted flight at the top of the loop. I can't say It stopped very long because I haven't got the nerve. To attempt any sustained inverted flight might be another challenge to anyone who's crazy enough.
You've got a lot of great Ideas, keep that creative mind working. I wonder if any other guys have any input?

Joel

Joel & Mickey,

AT Spring Hill a few years ago or last year HAL DeBolt had suggested that we do something simular..Very few had even gave it a thought. I tryed some of the maneuvers at my local field..Loops,Spot Landings, Touch and Go's, Figue 8's, Slow flight should be fun.. I would not want to scare pilots..
Some seem to get very nervious when they are being judged..
I know that Joel flys like he has an arcobatic biplane sometimes and needs to have some competion.. And I would not want to fly again Mickey on an ospicale course as he has all that time flying in the street dodgeing the trees, telephone poles, Mail boxes, garbage cans, etc.

WE could make something simple to start and have something to shoot for as maybe some prizes..

Jim

Inverted flight is a good one to add.
An autorotation landing with a roll in it is possible also.

I imagine you could have a couple skill levels.
Level 1: Takeoffs, spot landings, slow speed, constant altitude 8's,tc.
Level 2: Min/max speeds, Split S, immelman, hovering,Dead stick touch and go(electric), etc.
Level 3 : All the more difficult stuff.

Probably would have 3 categories of aircraft also:
Fixed pitch twin rotor.
Fixed pitch single rotor.
Collective pitch single rotor.

Seems like we know enough now to not have wings
except beginner models. I'd suggest wings would
only be allowed in level 1.

Jim suggests some important points, namely competition is not for everyone.
In the beginning competition spurs development, in the end competition is
excluding.
The number of people who fly pattern or competition helicopters is miniscule
to the number of people who fly for fun.
Fun fly events are always better attended, and the hot dog sessions at the end
of competitions are usually much more fun than the actual competion.
I'm all for both, fun fly and real competition.
A fun fly event with
bomb drop, limbo, touch an goes, slow flight, climb and glide, slalom course,
would be just as fun, as long as it does not take up to much free flying time.
I'm not going to suggest obstacle course since I have a head start.
I'll post video some day of the obstacles we fly through at the park,
Loops through soccer goals, over 8' fences under oak trees, through
pavillions, etc.
mickey

Hi,

If you have enough power, do a prop hang with the top of blades toward the wind and the blades will stop. It's the only way that I have been able to get the blades on a single rotor to completely stop. However, a nice altitude is required until you determine how much time is required to restart the blades and it will get your heart pumping the first time you try . Another nice maneuver is to place a tall pole in the center of the field and with a combination of throttle and elevator hold the gyro pointing toward the pole and walk it around 360 degrees. Spring Hill Florida has a pole in the middle of the field so it became a challenge for everybody.

Phil

Helllo Jim,

I hope the concept of "Fun Fly" dosen't get lost in our discussion of "what should we be able to do?". After all we are there to have fun and fly together with our friends. The purpose of this thread was to explore what other people who have some knowledge on the subject of autogyros have to say about making the Fly-ins more fun. We don't have to have a competition but it might make part of our time together interesting. Most of the people who attend our gathering are content to fly, land and still be able to do it again without making repairs. I was that kind of person three years ago in Martinsville. Now that I've been flying gyros for a while I've reached the point of "what can we do, what are the limits of what we can do?" The more we learn about how these machines fly and what they can do, the more we can progress and have fun at our gatherings. Lets still have fun!

We need everyone's input,

Joel

Hi Guys,

Hal came up witha schedule of slightly aerobatic manoevers for a fun competion at last years gyro meet at Spring Hill. I tried a few of them.

Anybody still have a hard copy.

Bob G

Joel, At the Cincy Auto gyro meet I did a loop with the Giant Whistler and Rick thought that was neat.. Rick was doing some dead stick landings after going up about 300 feet and I thought that was neat.. Those things are a lot different then just flying around.. It's just having fun after you became comfortable with your machine.
The one that Phil talks about hanging on the prop is fun too.. Useally the sky's are not crowded at a Gyro meet so alot of things can be tryed..

Lets still have fun.
Jim

Joel mentioned commercial interest, and Jim mentioned having some prizes... well, I would be more than happy to offer one set of AeroBalsa RotorBlade Airfoils to the lucky winner of the competition. The winner would pick whatever size they desired.

Whaddayathink?

Mike Smith

Whoah! Is that possible? Wouldn't you need to stop the blades and get them spinning in the opposite direction? Even then, there wouldn't be enough angle on the rotor to keep it spinning. I don't fly gyro's so maybe I'm missing something.

Hello Gravityisnotmyfriend,

You might not think the gyro can sustain inverted flight. I think there's one guy from Florida who just might be able to do it. What do you think Mickey? If a helicopter with blades that are not flat bottomed as our autogyros are can autorotate to a safe landing, why couldn't an autogyro with a helicopter rotor, swashplate, stalilizer bar etc be set up so that as the blades reverse their pitch via the collective control as the gyro goes inverted? Just a thought. Maybe Mickey could give it some thought and make it work. His G3P0 has a helicopter rotor head that seems to work fine. I don't know enough about standard helicopter hardware but it seems that if the collective control would allow enough pitch change in both directions it's possible to give it a try.

am I crazy?
Joel

Hello Mike,

Your offer is most generous. As of now we don't really have any competition or any structure other than "We're getting together for a fun-fly" next September in Muncie. I started this thread to try to get a discussion going to consider what we might do or just what are we capable of doing. I'm not sure if anyone is sincerely interested in trying some sort of competition. From what I have seen so far, it dosen't look too promising. Maybe after people have time to digest and think things over some sort of structure will evolve. As Mickey said earlier, competition can exclude some people from participating, I don't think we want to discourage people, any people, from coming and having fun in an enviornment where they can learn about our autogyros. These meets are possibly the very best source of hands-on information for aspiring gyro pilots.
We need to give this some time to see what people desire after giving it some thought.

Thanks for your reply,
Joel

Mike, We wil keep your offer in mind..Maybe just as a pilot drawing.. I believe I may be able to get a PT Gyro kit with a little twisting of an arm..Maybe even some other prizes to encourage others to fly or try something new..Maybe a Hotdog session. Just something besides the race track pattern..

In another thought: Would anyone out there like to write up a story for a model magizine about this years Muncie and the one coming up?
Just a thought..

Thanks,
Jim

You're not crazy, already working on it.

Hello Mickey,

I had a feeling you were capable of making it happen but didn't know if was possible due to range of motion limitations in the hardware.

Get it done!

Crazy

Hi Jim,

Count us in for donating a kit or two at Muncie.
We have already sent a kit to Phil as a donation for the Spring Hill event in Feb.............

John

Collective pitch should be good for +/- 10 degrees of pitch, this isn't a problem.
The Issue is going to be thrust line...

Hello Mickey,

Good point! thrustline will be the biggest problem with your design that does not require a horizontal stabilizer. However, if a horizontal is included in the design there would be a immediate trim change required as the aircraft went inverted. Another problem might arrise as the mass of the aircraft is now above the rotor. No pendulum effect for stabilization? If the mass of the airframe was light enough it might not be as much of a problem.


Maybe this won't be too easy without a fly by wire system utilizing a flight control computer,

Joel

First pendulum stability is not what you think it is. Helicopters are more stable upside down than upright.
The pendulum effect is actually de-stabilizing.
The problem is the angle between the motor and the rotor, in my case 112degrees. This would
need to be 68 degrees for inverted. The stabilizer angle is not an issue for me as I don't have one.
I'm thinking of rigging the motor parallel to the rotor so it won't change inverted.
Perhaps a pusher would be better for this.
I have to give it a think. Maybe by february at spring hill....

Hey guys... would like to know who to contact for the Spring Hill event for a prize donation.

Cliff Manspeaker is the CD for SpringHill

His email and address is:

[email protected]

6208 Hillview Rd
Spring Hill FL 34606