Please help
 

This recent Saturday I tried to fly the Ciervia given to me. Contrary to what "Kwmtp" said, I tried to take it off from the ground. Every time it would veer off to the left on the left wheel. Bob Haines who gave me this rotorcraft said that the rudder and rotor tilt need to be at 5 degrees to the left. Is this true? If the plane would veer to the left, wouldn't it need right rudder and rotor? A couple of heli pilots came over and tried to help, but they really had no idea what they were talking about.

Kyle

Please help
 

Hi Kyle,

I'll give you my recommendation but I have never tried to fly the Ciervia. Some autogyros are very difficult to take off from the ground and it's better to hand launch but I don't if that's the case with the Ciervia. The 5 degrees head tilt may be correct for that gyro, however I always set everything at zero and then trim once it's flying. For ground launch I stand right in back and try to keep it straight into the wind using rudder. If it starts to veer to the left I would give it right rudder and some right rotor tilt. Also keep pressure on the tail with up elevator until the rotor looks like its getting up to speed and then let off on elevator.

Best of luck,

Phil

Please help
 

Hi Kyle...

I surely agree with Phil...taxi take-offs with gyros are tricky. Side wind gusts can tip it over before the rotor is up to speed and frequently you run out of runway or by the time it lifts off it's so far away it's easy to lose orientation.

One approach you might find helpful is to hold the gyro with the nose up at about 45 degrees, while walking slowly into the wind. Give the rotor a spin by hand and keep walking until it really is pulling upward. Then lower the nose to a level flight attitude, give it full throttle and "feel" if the plane wants to tilt one way or the other. Correct the tilt tendency with lateral trim of the rotor until the plane feels as if it want to fly level. If it feels as if it wants to fly....go ahead and release it with a GENTLE push...better if is just wants to fly out of your hand while still walking into the wind.

Once you have it trimmed properly, then taxi take-offs will probably be easier.

Good Luck!

Bill

Please help
 

Hi,
During my recent Giro developements the initial problem was the
craft tilting at lift off time of the take off run.
Full scale Giros would be tough to hand launch, so they all have
had to take off themselves. If our objective is to emulate full scale then take off is a primary part of it
To cure a problem one needs to know what it is and the cause. Research found the tilt was caused by retreating blade stall, more precisely a differential in lift between the advancing and retreating blades.
A rotor accelerates from zero RPM to flight RPM. In that process a point is reached where sufficent lift is present to leave terra firma even though flight RPM has not been achieved, It is in this RPM spectrum that retreating blade stall occurs. Fortunately the spectrum is small and is not present during flight
The obvious solution to no tilt take offs would be to get through that RBS spectrum quickly, full scale learned to do it by prespinning the rotor, that should work for models also if there was a means.
Happily a simple means was found. We wind the prop up to start the engine why not wind up the rotor to start take off?
Proved to be easily done, add a prop spinner to the blade hanger, use the engine starter motor or better still a power drill and simply wind the rotor up. Question could be how many RPMS is sufficent, Easily determeined. Use wind to wind up the rotor, tach the RPMs, the speed where lift starts to occur would be the minimum spin up rpm.
Proof of the pudding? Since using prespin for 100s of take offs there has not been one abort of any kind!
Hope I have been of some help, do have fun !

Please help
 

Kyle,

Did you get the manual with the "C.4"? It's very explicit about 5 degrees left tilt and 5 degrees left rudder as THE starting point for the "maiden" on the "C.4".

If this is your first toy autogyro and the "maiden" flight for this "C.4" by all means do what the manual says and hand launch! Did you receive the video for the "C.4" with the model? It shows precisely the proper hand launch takeoff technique.

Where do you live? (Perhaps we can get you paired up with an experienced toy autogyro pilot?)

Please help
 

I live in Colchester, Ct. About 30 minutes off of hartford.

Please help
 

Hi.
This appears to be a Giro newcomer and newcomers need guidance?
In the past Model Aviation ran an introduction story on Autogyros. Responce to that by interested modelers was unblieveable. Question from majority was how does the rotor work? Good question, if you are to use something you would do
well to understand it's workings, right?
An Autogiro rotor self rotates, in the process lift is created.
A windmill's "blades" are vanes, basically flat. An Autogiro's blades are airfoils, wings. Thus the lift is created by rotating wings
and must be thought of as such
As with an airplane moving wings create lift, with a Gyro the
wing movement is rotation.
What creates rotation?>>>Two factors are used, first the rotor is arranged similiar to a windmill and as such the airstream striking it causes it to rotate. Rotation increases until rotor drag equals the airstream force.
Remember Giro blades are airfoils and that an airfoil always lifts
vertical to the line of flight. Knowing this the rotor is arranged so
that the vertical lift produced also has a forward force vector. This
forward vector tends to pull the airfoil, thus increase rotation.
Know that lift increases as a square of the air speed, rotation speed Giro-wise.
Thus as the windmill action increases rotation speed lift is increasing as a square of the speed. Thus as the windmill force
reachs it's maximum that forward lift vector has increased dramatically, this is labeled "autorotation" and it takes over the
rotation accelerating it until drag creates a limit
Happily for the Autogyro once airborne with the rotor autorotating forward speed is not required. it can be halted in a
hover and the rotor will still maintain it's RPM and lift
This explaination is neceesarly brief. Should say a report in depth and detail is scheduled for a coming issue of R/C Report magazine. Publication date? Ask editor Gordon Banks at E-Mail ([email protected])

Please help
 

Yes i am very much a newcomer. But I have read the Construction artciles on the DC Giro, and Whistler. I also have all five or six of the autogiro series in RCM. So I kinda get the idea of this, just haven't been able to get it to work yet. If i got Hal's explanation correct, I think that was what would happen. It seemed like the right side, as you call it advancing blade was creating more lift than the retreating blade. So the right side would lift off first causing it to tilt.

Please help
 

I can't seem to find how to put help on the main menu (index?
what ever) So will "post" some more on this help spot.
Some have said wings are for wimps. Reply could be if being a
wimp creates a fine performing Giro perhaps it is worth it??
A bit of background: The most numorous and successful Giros were Kellett and Pitcarin. All but the very last of them featured wings. so why were they left off?
Know that this was the deep depression, along with many others aircraft sales plummeted. A possable help would be lower
price. Structure is costly. History indicates finding a means to
eliminate the wing would be cost effective Evidence in no way
suggests a wingless Giro had improved performance relating to
the wing removal.
Model-wise: the first most successful R/C Giro used a wing mostly for lack of Giro knowledge and to ease transition from
airplanes. At the time this concept was developed unril the
performance was easily the match of anything today
With my recent Giro developments at times the road was rough
finding solutions. The road was smoothed by adding a wing until
the mystery was solved . That created another question, why did
adding a wing make flight tolerable? Know that Autogyro wings
featured sharply up turned tips. The answer was found withj Giro
"kites", needing lateral stability they got it with forward vertical
stabilizers (fins?). The autogyro up turned wing tips acted as FVSs?
This concept was investigated and developed demonstrating dramatic additional stability. The final p roduct havine no wing.the forward vertical stabilizers being seperated by a rod instead.
It would appear that a winged Autogyro has the finest potential performance compared to anything else. If "trying to keep up with the Jones" or ego is not your cup of tea use of a wing would
be a good choice.
Winged Giro assets observed:
With an aileroned wing the rotor can be "fixed" sinplicity itself
Capable of all Giro maneuvers with ease
No tilt tendicy on take off
Easily airborn in 10 ft or less'
Will climb vertical endlessly
We are now flying wingless and sorrowfully these assets just
are not there, so we do have a message in the above?
A neat thing about Autogiros, there can be differences, things
to try, they are not stuck in a rut!
Do enjoy, have fun!

Hal deBolt

Please help
 

and there is more>>direct control versus lateral only finding.
Giro V was presented two years ago as a fully developed Giro
very suited to the average R/Cer. Question, was it confucious who
said there never is a finale?
Investigation and development continue so there are new findings and improvements. Giro V featured lateral rotor control
and there was an ongoing desire to investigate D.C control completely. Later in the year a how to for a simplistic infinite control rotor head was reported and this head became "the one".
For evaluation the origional head on Giro V was simply replaced
by the new infinite had retaining both rudder and elevator controls.
Rudder versus lateral rotor had been previously compared, there
was no contest, lateral rotor was quite superior.
Something similiar was hoped for with rotor pitch control versus
elevator. The disappointment was unexpected. finding:
Using elevator responce was the same as with an airplane. A small amount of "up" elevator created a shallow climb angle with
no loss of air speed. More up increased the angle without marked
speed loss. Finally the Giro could be put into a vertical climb for some distance. Very smooth and desirable pitch control
For comparison the same routine was followed using rotor pitch
control. Actually we never got to the vertical segment, the ability
simply did not exsist.
From level flight the rotor angle of attack was increased creating
a climbing flight path, however, unlike the elevator useage, there
was a marked decrease in air speed. When the attack angle was
further increased the air speed loss was drastic. Increasing the
angle of attack further reduced forward speed more putting the
Giro into a hover mode.
Conclusion: for normal style flying elevator does just fine while
rotor pitch control left much to be desired
Should be said that there may well be flight situations, especially at very low speed where rotor pitch control may be an
asset. indications suggest that. So, the next evaluation will look
into that situation.
Hope is that this may be of interest and help, good luck!!

Please help
 

Hal...

It would be appropriate to point out that for several years now, the Autogyro Company of Arizona has made available autogyro kits that feature lateral control of the rotor for banking and elevator control for pitch.

These aircraft have been successfully flown by a large number of builders.

Bill

Please help
 

Hi Bill,
Yes, mentioning ACA would be a substantiation. I know Steve
has stayed with this arrangement, I just have never bothered
to ask him why, stupid me? In my mind I felt it was for simplicity.
lower cost or the lack of available infinite heads Perhaps if he reads this he will let us know
Anyhow, our findings would suggest he has been in the right ball park, correct?
How about your knowledge, maybe you have some experience to add. All this sort of info is needed to acquaint people with Giros
and thus encourage them to join what we are enjoying, OK?
Be good,

Hal debolt

How Long can we Beat this Dog
 

I do believe its time to start another thread fella's......the original creator of this thread has long since been put to sleep.... :o

In defense of ACOA's control system......This is the most economic means available to produce an "AFFORDABLE" gyro model kit that folks can buy and not break the bank.

Rick

How Long can we Beat this Dog
 

I do believe its time to start another thread fella's......the original creator of this thread has long since been put to sleep.... :o

In defense of ACOA's control system......This is the most economic means available to produce an "AFFORDABLE" gyro model kit that folks can buy and not break the bank.

As for making all this gyro information available to the public...!!!!...

I do believe this info has been available for many years on the 3 Gyro modeling websites that exsist today.....

Sorry, woke up on the wrong side this morning.

Rick

Please help
 

Hi Rick,

Also, make sure you have your socks on right

Phil

Please help
 

Hello Rick,
First it is nice to see you found time to comment on my posts.
I do not believe we have ever met, if we did it would have been
my pleasure !
I have attempted to contact you via E-Mail numerous times but,
unhappily, I never got a reply, that I am aware of.
To thje theme of your replies: I am aware that there is an Autogyro "fraternity"that has Gyro experience and my posts have
been made for two purposes.
First in hope that someone of the fraternity would respond giving
us their thoughts and experiences, would be very helpful.
Secondly,Autogyro modeling is a small sebment of R/C activity. Yet it is an exciting different way to model and fly that should
intrigue many seasoned R/Cers. The responce to the Model Aviation "introduction to Gyros" would certainly suggest that and
from those inquiries comes suggestions for what is the hold up!
Anyone who has been with Gyros knows that airplane knowledge is a small part of them, until recent times Gyro needs
have been mysterious. Common sense might say before attempting something unfamilair, learn what it takes to make it tick. A few people have asked for help and got it. They found success.
I have been modeling for a while and learned. The last 5 years
with Aurogyros. During that tenure obstacles were encountered
and had to be overcome. If that was my experience it could easily
be that of others, To help my posts have been concerned with
what could be called the "Toughest". The posts may not be the
only way, but be assured they are a successful effort.
Further: If the Autogyro movement is to grow it needs exposure.
It appears the media's attention is given to numbers of participants, also so does AMA.
Would seem a chore for the "fraternity" would be to entice new
people to join them and do all possible to ease their path.
Along with the other Web spots it is good to see RCU is willing
to help as best they can. As part of their broad coverage more
should be made aware of the enticing Gyro activity.
Should also say I have asked good friend Steve if he has had
experience with rotor pitch control, no reply as yet.
Incidently if you would check the 10/2000 RCM you would find a
simplistic infinite control rotor head that any school boy could
assemble and has proven indistructable. Retail cost. less than $15
Good to see you here, lets all do our best to get Gyros in high gear, ya'll hear?
Best wishes,

Hal deBolt [email protected]

RE: Please help
 

Hi Kylenlord I have been exp. with Benson & walls type Gyros for two years now and have not had a good flight yet, However my first and third did take off but both tipped to the left, the first due to the rota not reaching autorotation, the third due to the rota being tipped back to far and taking the tips off of the tree bladed prop it lost thrust / power and just sank to earth. I spin up the rota by power prior to letting them move forward to take off. I have write up and photos if anyone wants to view My E Mail is [email protected] I am in the UK.

RE: Please help
 

Hello Folks

I know there was an original point to this posting somewhere ? I would just like to know if Kyle has solved his take-off Gremlins. If you are buried out there amongst all this text Kyle how are you getting on with launching ?

If Steve Tilson gave you recommended settings then thats what you should go with. I mean he did design the thing after all :D

I am in the UK and will help if I can. I have 5 autogyros 2 of which are my own design and I think I know what I am doing by now. The image is my Whirling Dervish which I believe uses the same method of control as the C4 ( Works really well btw).

My Dervish gyro requires a slight trim to the retreating side to be trimmed correctly and ALL my first flights with my models were performed by hand launching.

Good Luck

Sean