What causes a brownout?
03-13-2012, 02:14 PM
#51
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RE: What causes a brownout?
I too fly large planes. Here is some MA use on my 42% plane. On the ignition, this a twin 150cc I use 150ma per 10min flight. On the same flight doing IMAC I use 400ma from two A123. That's about 200ma per pack. If I do hard 3-d for the same time the ma use on the receiver battery's doubles. Dennis
03-13-2012, 07:45 PM
#52
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG
There are a lot of questions to answer. What was the MA of the battery? How many flights on the battery? How new or old were the switch and servo extensions? Have you cycled the battery?
On another forum there was a thread on power needs for Gs planes with hi-end servos. This probability doesn't apply to you, but it was found that a 100cc plane at idle was drawing 2 to 2 1/2 amps at idle on the runway and after a hard 3-d flight the power piked at 19amps. We also showed the the standard servo plug caused a 1/2v drop each.
On our 2.4 receivers power is everything and must be watched very closely. A 4.8v battery must be recharged when it shows 4.8 because under load it will drop lower. Same goes for 6v.
Standard servos won't have the amp draw as the high end ones, but still old wires, old switches can cause a voltage drop before it even gets to the receiver.
This apply s to all the 2.4 radio systems. Dennis
There are a lot of questions to answer. What was the MA of the battery? How many flights on the battery? How new or old were the switch and servo extensions? Have you cycled the battery?
On another forum there was a thread on power needs for Gs planes with hi-end servos. This probability doesn't apply to you, but it was found that a 100cc plane at idle was drawing 2 to 2 1/2 amps at idle on the runway and after a hard 3-d flight the power piked at 19amps. We also showed the the standard servo plug caused a 1/2v drop each.
On our 2.4 receivers power is everything and must be watched very closely. A 4.8v battery must be recharged when it shows 4.8 because under load it will drop lower. Same goes for 6v.
Standard servos won't have the amp draw as the high end ones, but still old wires, old switches can cause a voltage drop before it even gets to the receiver.
This apply s to all the 2.4 radio systems. Dennis
03-14-2012, 02:37 AM
#53
RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG
There are a lot of questions to answer. What was the MA of the battery? How many flights on the battery? How new or old were the switch and servo extensions? Have you cycled the battery?
On another forum there was a thread on power needs for Gs planes with hi-end servos. This probability doesn't apply to you, but it was found that a 100cc plane at idle was drawing 2 to 2 1/2 amps at idle on the runway and after a hard 3-d flight the power piked at 19amps. We also showed the the standard servo plug caused a 1/2v drop each.
On our 2.4 receivers power is everything and must be watched very closely. A 4.8v battery must be recharged when it shows 4.8 because under load it will drop lower. Same goes for 6v.
Standard servos won't have the amp draw as the high end ones, but still old wires, old switches can cause a voltage drop before it even gets to the receiver.
This apply s to all the 2.4 radio systems. Dennis
There are a lot of questions to answer. What was the MA of the battery? How many flights on the battery? How new or old were the switch and servo extensions? Have you cycled the battery?
On another forum there was a thread on power needs for Gs planes with hi-end servos. This probability doesn't apply to you, but it was found that a 100cc plane at idle was drawing 2 to 2 1/2 amps at idle on the runway and after a hard 3-d flight the power piked at 19amps. We also showed the the standard servo plug caused a 1/2v drop each.
On our 2.4 receivers power is everything and must be watched very closely. A 4.8v battery must be recharged when it shows 4.8 because under load it will drop lower. Same goes for 6v.
Standard servos won't have the amp draw as the high end ones, but still old wires, old switches can cause a voltage drop before it even gets to the receiver.
This apply s to all the 2.4 radio systems. Dennis
I think your figures are somewhat out of whack. The models that fly at the Lockheed Martin sponsored Aerodesign competition are built to fly under extreme conditions by rank amateurs often using 1000 or less mA. These feature oversize control surfaces, abnormally long servo leads to get to the ends of 14 foot spans and 8 foot fuselages. I see standard switches and servo leads often cobbled together with other wires. Last year the advanced class also had data acquisition as well as brakes where the servo operating the brakes fully stalled out when the brakes were applied. If we were to apply your rational then many of these models should have suffered some sort of brown out. Two days of flying with a model taking off every 5 minutes and I saw no brown outs. Radio gear was exclusively 2.4 and every make and manufacturer was represented. I don’t think your rational holds water myself.
Dennis
03-14-2012, 05:51 AM
#54
RE: What causes a brownout?
If you read his previous post. It was his "friend" not him. This is typical 3rd party response of someone trying to be a resident expert without 1st hand knowledge.
03-14-2012, 05:58 AM
#55
RE: What causes a brownout?
Lets be clear. The only way you will get a 1/2 volt drop from a servo extension that is new, undamaged and not shorted is to have a drop resistor to reduce voltage to the servo. Period.
03-14-2012, 07:06 AM
#56
RE: What causes a brownout?
Before 2.4 came into wide spread usage there was enough incidences of loss of connection. Most could be traced to poor battery maintenance or poor installation. I remember ignition interference. Along comes 2.4 and the hue and cry to switch and all your problems will be solved. I wondered if we are only masking problems with the 2.4 systems and at some time they could possibly swamp the system and cause loss of contact. I wondered this because many of the same players who had problems with the 72 Meg stuff were beginning to have problems with the 2.4, a common denominator perhaps.
On the other hand the trainer arfs that are readily available come with a spectrum/jr or futaba radio. I hate to say it but more than what I consider normal of the sectrum/jr have had problems resulting in loss of control. We recommended that everyone switch out the 4 cell packs that came with the systems and use 5 cell. For the most part the problems have been reduced significantly.
At our field we have Futaba, JR, Hitec, Airtronics, Assan, Hobbyking, Multiplex, one XPS conversion I am aware of and unfortunately the only ones having issues seem to be the odd Spectrum/JR and no one can pin point for certain why.
Dennis
On the other hand the trainer arfs that are readily available come with a spectrum/jr or futaba radio. I hate to say it but more than what I consider normal of the sectrum/jr have had problems resulting in loss of control. We recommended that everyone switch out the 4 cell packs that came with the systems and use 5 cell. For the most part the problems have been reduced significantly.
At our field we have Futaba, JR, Hitec, Airtronics, Assan, Hobbyking, Multiplex, one XPS conversion I am aware of and unfortunately the only ones having issues seem to be the odd Spectrum/JR and no one can pin point for certain why.
Dennis
03-15-2012, 09:13 AM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: kiwibob72
I have been running that exact AR6200 receiver on a 50 sized nitro heli for over two years now (5 high torque digital servos and a gyro all running at once), but with a 6v Nimh pack that was new at the time, and not once have I suffered a single brown out issue or something even remotely related to a glitch. On that basis, I'd say you have hit the nail on the head re your problem!
I have been running that exact AR6200 receiver on a 50 sized nitro heli for over two years now (5 high torque digital servos and a gyro all running at once), but with a 6v Nimh pack that was new at the time, and not once have I suffered a single brown out issue or something even remotely related to a glitch. On that basis, I'd say you have hit the nail on the head re your problem!
Yup.
A lot of newbies, and some "old timers" forget that a signel standard server can draw close to 2 AMPS (!!!) as it approaches stall.
A bit of binding, times the number of high draw digital servos you are running, plus the age of the battery pack and you have a WONDERFUL recipe for brownouts. One or two servos alone can cause the problem.
Upping the voltage is not a bad idea, but not exactly required, upping your battery capacity however is a MUST to avoid brownouts, or do both to be safe.
03-15-2012, 09:54 AM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: Propworn
I think your figures are somewhat out of whack. The models that fly at the Lockheed Martin sponsored Aerodesign competition are built to fly under extreme conditions by rank amateurs often using 1000 or less mA.
I think your figures are somewhat out of whack. The models that fly at the Lockheed Martin sponsored Aerodesign competition are built to fly under extreme conditions by rank amateurs often using 1000 or less mA.
While often total draw remains pretty low, pushing the limits can over tax the battery packs quite easily. The rather scientific methodology used in those articles bares that all out.
You can try it yourself, by putting a resistive load on the control surface or three ( push it in the other direction ) while you have a watt meter connected.
03-15-2012, 12:09 PM
#59
RE: What causes a brownout?
From the OP's description of his problem, I highly doubt he had a power problem.
Problem occurred at the exact same spot, twice. Another poster nailed it! Multipath distortion. The RF signal was lost, not the rx losing power. When the RX came back into range, he regained control.
These are digital signals, and when you get MPD, signals arrived out of order, k nd f l e wh you a e tal ing to s eon and th v ice bre ks up.
If it happens in a certain time span the RX drops and reconnects when it regains the proper order of the signal. Using 2 channels helps eliminate this, but does not 100% prevent it.
From what I gather the OP was also pointing the tip of the antenna at the plane, where the weakest part of the signal is at. He was basically flying outside of the donut. If the plane entered an area where it received garbage on those channels, or in that spectrum that was stronger than the TX, that will cause the exact problem he had.
No need to blame Spektrum, just about any brand TX/RX in these situations can have this happen. I fly a DX6i and have never had any problems with any of my planes, including the Ultra Micros. I flew my Corsair out so far it was a tiny speck and I still had 100% control of it.
2.4Ghz has excellent range, and is very tight, but it is still capable of being interfered with. For all we know that small portion where he flies may be in direct contact with a wireless internet tower that provides home internet over 2.4 Ghz like mine. That can easily shoot a plane down with just the right conditions.
03-15-2012, 12:32 PM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: acdii
From the OP's description of his problem, I highly doubt he had a power problem.
I don't think so, not that what you are saying can't happen....From the OP's description of his problem, I highly doubt he had a power problem.
Problem occurred at the exact same spot, twice.
I've had the same issues as him with the same "Orange" RX he tried. This with the plane no further than 40' to one side of me.
The plane was well within the donut.
The "Orange" RX seems to have been more sensitive to such problems than the Spektrum.
I can reproduce the reboot/loss of control easily if I use a low capacity & voltage battery pack. It mimics what he and I both saw.
03-15-2012, 01:27 PM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: opjose
I've had the same issues as him with the same "Orange" RX he tried. This with the plane no further than 40' to one side of me.
The plane was well within the donut.
The "Orange" RX seems to have been more sensitive to such problems than the Spektrum.
OpJose, Ihad the exact same issue with TWOspektrum 6200 (original)receiver as well. In fact Isent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
ORIGINAL: acdii
From the OP's description of his problem, I highly doubt he had a power problem.
I don't think so, not that what you are saying can't happen....From the OP's description of his problem, I highly doubt he had a power problem.
Problemoccurredat the exact same spot, twice.
I've had the same issues as him with the same "Orange" RX he tried. This with the plane no further than 40' to one side of me.
The plane was well within the donut.
The "Orange" RX seems to have been more sensitive to such problems than the Spektrum.
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane (I wish Iwere a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear Icharged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR(less convincingly)about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! ) Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although Iam more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
I can reproduce the reboot/loss of control easily if I use a low capacity & voltage battery pack. It mimics what he and I both saw.
(P.S. My inveterate son flies these things Iam his builder, chief financial provider, cheering squad and chief mechanic. although Ihave been making attempts at flying myself and starting to enjoy it tremendously. )
03-15-2012, 01:33 PM
#62
RE: What causes a brownout?
Hi
Little off topic here , Quote
P.S. My inveterate son flies these things I am his builder, chief financial provider, cheering squad and chief mechanic. although I have been making attempts at flying myself and starting to enjoy it tremendously. )
This is what it,s all about ,............... there are things money cann,t buy
Michel
Little off topic here , Quote
P.S. My inveterate son flies these things I am his builder, chief financial provider, cheering squad and chief mechanic. although I have been making attempts at flying myself and starting to enjoy it tremendously. ) This is what it,s all about ,............... there are things money cann,t buy
Michel
03-15-2012, 01:43 PM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: mranga
OpJose, I had the exact same issue with TWO spektrum 6200 (original) receiver as well. In fact I sent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
OpJose, I had the exact same issue with TWO spektrum 6200 (original) receiver as well. In fact I sent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
ORIGINAL: mranga
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane ( I wish I were a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear I charged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane ( I wish I were a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear I charged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
For the donut theory to have a large effect you have to be flying the plane out to an extreme.
In my case, EVERY time it happened the plane was pretty close in.
ORIGINAL: mranga
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR (less convincingly) about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR (less convincingly) about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
I wonder if the firmware of these particular "orange" RX's are at fault?
I've had absolutely NO such problem flying the cheaper, shorter range 4ch Orange RX park flyer receivers out to ranges far in excess of when I had my problems. But I've given up on the 6ch version and the AR6x00's.
I also just picked up the 9 channel Orange to give that a go and see if things are different.
BTW: I also tried the 6ch with the satellite RX's with exactly the same results.
ORIGINAL: mranga
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although I am more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although I am more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
Every time someone dips below sight, we all expect to see a fireball arise!
ORIGINAL: mranga
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative? Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative? Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
It's not the AMP draw per-se. It's the resulting voltage drop.
Normally draw spikes from servos are fairly quick. The filtering caps should deal with it so the RX never sees a drop.
I'll bet that they are not doing their job causing a reboot.
03-15-2012, 02:02 PM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: opjose
Interesting... I've never had a single problem with the AR7000's.
I can second that. No problems with AR7000 (my son flies them in a couple of his planes) but my woes were with AR6200.
In this case too, the plane did not seem that far away (maybe around 200 feet). In any event, so as to not take further chances, Ipulled out the old antenna and ordered a new one. Interestingly, at least two times of three, Ican swear the incident happened in about the same spot. Is there a way to measure radio interference ( any instrument ) that one can walk around the field and chart such things. ( It might be my imagination at work here but Icould swear the incidents were around the same spot anyway.)
This was also a satellite RX setup.
I'd say out of the last 30 or 40 flights ( which were on different receivers but all of them were "orange rx 6 ch. with satellite"), this is the first such incident.
I am also wondering if this happened because the binding of transmitter to receiver (i.e. solid red light on the receiver)did not happen before takeoff and would it make sense to put a little hole and cover it with clear monokote so as to see the device before take off and thereby ensure the link is solid.
ORIGINAL: mranga
OpJose, Ihad the exact same issue with TWOspektrum 6200 (original)receiver as well. In fact Isent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
OpJose, Ihad the exact same issue with TWOspektrum 6200 (original)receiver as well. In fact Isent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
Interesting... I've never had a single problem with the AR7000's.
ORIGINAL: mranga
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane (I wish Iwere a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear Icharged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane (I wish Iwere a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear Icharged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
The "donut" theory is interesting, but you have to remember that in most cases if you point the antenna straight out, the plane still tends to be relatively close in and gets a strong signal.
For the donut theory to have a large effect you have to be flying the plane out to an extreme.
In my case, EVERY time it happened the plane was pretty close in.
For the donut theory to have a large effect you have to be flying the plane out to an extreme.
In my case, EVERY time it happened the plane was pretty close in.
ORIGINAL: mranga
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR(less convincingly)about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR(less convincingly)about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
ORIGINAL:OpJose
yup identical to what happened to me.
I wonder if the firmware of these particular "orange" RX's are at fault?
I've had absolutely NO such problem flying the cheaper, shorter range 4ch Orange RX park flyer receivers out to ranges far in excess of when I had my problems. But I've given up on the 6ch version and the AR6x00's.
I also just picked up the 9 channel Orange to give that a go and see if things are different.
BTW: I also tried the 6ch with the satellite RX's with exactly the same results.
yup identical to what happened to me.
I wonder if the firmware of these particular "orange" RX's are at fault?
I've had absolutely NO such problem flying the cheaper, shorter range 4ch Orange RX park flyer receivers out to ranges far in excess of when I had my problems. But I've given up on the 6ch version and the AR6x00's.
I also just picked up the 9 channel Orange to give that a go and see if things are different.
BTW: I also tried the 6ch with the satellite RX's with exactly the same results.
I'd say out of the last 30 or 40 flights ( which were on different receivers but all of them were "orange rx 6 ch. with satellite"), this is the first such incident.
I am also wondering if this happened because the binding of transmitter to receiver (i.e. solid red light on the receiver)did not happen before takeoff and would it make sense to put a little hole and cover it with clear monokote so as to see the device before take off and thereby ensure the link is solid.
ORIGINAL: mranga
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although Iam more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although Iam more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
ORIGINAL:OpJose
I don't think it's a Spektrum problem per-se. We have guys flying their Spektrum RX's BELOW a line of site to the plane, ( our field is up on a plateau ) without any signal loss, frame drops or other glitches.
Every time someone dips below sight, we all expect to see a fireball arise!
It's not the AMP draw per-se. It's the resulting voltage drop.
Normally draw spikes from servos are fairly quick. The filtering caps should deal with it so the RX never sees a drop.
I'll bet that they are not doing their job causing a reboot.
I don't think it's a Spektrum problem per-se. We have guys flying their Spektrum RX's BELOW a line of site to the plane, ( our field is up on a plateau ) without any signal loss, frame drops or other glitches.
Every time someone dips below sight, we all expect to see a fireball arise!
ORIGINAL: mranga
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative?Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative?Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
It's not the AMP draw per-se. It's the resulting voltage drop.
Normally draw spikes from servos are fairly quick. The filtering caps should deal with it so the RX never sees a drop.
I'll bet that they are not doing their job causing a reboot.
03-16-2012, 09:01 AM
#65
RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: mranga
Would it make a lot of sense to attach an external capacitor ( I think I've seen something like this advertised on HobbyKing) to deal with such spikes in current draw?
ORIGINAL: opjose
Interesting... I've never had a single problem with the AR7000's.
I can second that. No problems with AR7000 (my son flies them in a couple of his planes) but my woes were with AR6200.
In this case too, the plane did not seem that far away (maybe around 200 feet). In any event, so as to not take further chances, I pulled out the old antenna and ordered a new one. Interestingly, at least two times of three, I can swear the incident happened in about the same spot. Is there a way to measure radio interference ( any instrument ) that one can walk around the field and chart such things. ( It might be my imagination at work here but I could swear the incidents were around the same spot anyway.)
This was also a satellite RX setup.
I'd say out of the last 30 or 40 flights ( which were on different receivers but all of them were ''orange rx 6 ch. with satellite''), this is the first such incident.
I am also wondering if this happened because the binding of transmitter to receiver (i.e. solid red light on the receiver) did not happen before takeoff and would it make sense to put a little hole and cover it with clear monokote so as to see the device before take off and thereby ensure the link is solid.
ORIGINAL: mranga
OpJose, I had the exact same issue with TWO spektrum 6200 (original) receiver as well. In fact I sent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
OpJose, I had the exact same issue with TWO spektrum 6200 (original) receiver as well. In fact I sent it back to Horizon hobby and they replaced it with a AR7000 and an AR600 after claiming there was nothing wrong with the reciever.
Interesting... I've never had a single problem with the AR7000's.
ORIGINAL: mranga
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane ( I wish I were a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear I charged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
The two most compelling pieces of evidence are :
1. In both cases, the antenna was pointed straight at the plane ( I wish I were a bit more aware about radio wave propagation shame on me!) and (2) in both cases the receiver was using a 4.8 volt 1500 mah battery (I could swear I charged them well each time) but your point about amp draw is well taken.
The ''donut'' theory is interesting, but you have to remember that in most cases if you point the antenna straight out, the plane still tends to be relatively close in and gets a strong signal.
For the donut theory to have a large effect you have to be flying the plane out to an extreme.
In my case, EVERY time it happened the plane was pretty close in.
For the donut theory to have a large effect you have to be flying the plane out to an extreme.
In my case, EVERY time it happened the plane was pretty close in.
ORIGINAL: mranga
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR (less convincingly) about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
In the latest crash the plane went out of control, came back into control and went out of control again. It appears to have something to do with radio signal OR (less convincingly) about battery. I'll say in the Orange's defence that this is the first such incident after many flights. ( However, one is enough! )
ORIGINAL:OpJose
yup identical to what happened to me.
I wonder if the firmware of these particular ''orange'' RX's are at fault?
I've had absolutely NO such problem flying the cheaper, shorter range 4ch Orange RX park flyer receivers out to ranges far in excess of when I had my problems. But I've given up on the 6ch version and the AR6x00's.
I also just picked up the 9 channel Orange to give that a go and see if things are different.
BTW: I also tried the 6ch with the satellite RX's with exactly the same results.
yup identical to what happened to me.
I wonder if the firmware of these particular ''orange'' RX's are at fault?
I've had absolutely NO such problem flying the cheaper, shorter range 4ch Orange RX park flyer receivers out to ranges far in excess of when I had my problems. But I've given up on the 6ch version and the AR6x00's.
I also just picked up the 9 channel Orange to give that a go and see if things are different.
BTW: I also tried the 6ch with the satellite RX's with exactly the same results.
I'd say out of the last 30 or 40 flights ( which were on different receivers but all of them were ''orange rx 6 ch. with satellite''), this is the first such incident.
I am also wondering if this happened because the binding of transmitter to receiver (i.e. solid red light on the receiver) did not happen before takeoff and would it make sense to put a little hole and cover it with clear monokote so as to see the device before take off and thereby ensure the link is solid.
ORIGINAL: mranga
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although I am more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
Three incidents are enough to start me wondering about the Spektrum Technology itself although I am more inclined to beleieve it was my fault if others are having good luck with it.
ORIGINAL:OpJose
I don't think it's a Spektrum problem per-se. We have guys flying their Spektrum RX's BELOW a line of site to the plane, ( our field is up on a plateau ) without any signal loss, frame drops or other glitches.
Every time someone dips below sight, we all expect to see a fireball arise!
It's not the AMP draw per-se. It's the resulting voltage drop.
Normally draw spikes from servos are fairly quick. The filtering caps should deal with it so the RX never sees a drop.
I'll bet that they are not doing their job causing a reboot.
I don't think it's a Spektrum problem per-se. We have guys flying their Spektrum RX's BELOW a line of site to the plane, ( our field is up on a plateau ) without any signal loss, frame drops or other glitches.
Every time someone dips below sight, we all expect to see a fireball arise!
ORIGINAL: mranga
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative? Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
From the looks of it would it suffice to test your battery with a two amp current draw (for how long?) ? Is that being too conservative? Is there a ball park number one can use to test out before going airborne?
It's not the AMP draw per-se. It's the resulting voltage drop.
Normally draw spikes from servos are fairly quick. The filtering caps should deal with it so the RX never sees a drop.
I'll bet that they are not doing their job causing a reboot.
03-16-2012, 10:36 AM
#66
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RE: What causes a brownout?
[quote:ORIGINAL:mranga]
Would it make a lot of sense to attach an external capacitor (I think I've seen something like this advertised on HobbyKing) to deal with such spikes in current draw?
[/quote]
Thanks for replying. Perhaps it does not help. Two quick questions:
1. How does land RCdiffer qualitativel from the types of radios and receivers used for "air RC"?
2. Why would adding a capacitor to the receiver bus overload the circuit? (Does it really consume much power to charge that capacitor?)
Again, not doubting what you say but just trying to understand.
Thanks
Would it make a lot of sense to attach an external capacitor (I think I've seen something like this advertised on HobbyKing) to deal with such spikes in current draw?
The capacitors you see advertised are for land RC. It would do little more than add additional load to the circuit. It is designed to remove "electrical noise" from the power leads usually caused by electric motors and has been proven and admitted to by many, including JR, to be of no help in a brownout condition. Simply not enough capacity. Don't waste you money.
Thanks for replying. Perhaps it does not help. Two quick questions:
1. How does land RCdiffer qualitativel from the types of radios and receivers used for "air RC"?
2. Why would adding a capacitor to the receiver bus overload the circuit? (Does it really consume much power to charge that capacitor?)
Again, not doubting what you say but just trying to understand.
Thanks
03-16-2012, 11:12 AM
#67
RE: What causes a brownout?
It's not WHERE the RC device is operating, it's how it's powered. Elec or combustion. Elec motors tend to generate "noise" on the power lines. The better the quality of the motor-the lower the noise and the less a capacitor is needed. A capacitor large enough to carry the unit through a brownout would be too big to carry efficiently.
The capacitor should not overload the system but would apply a slight load. NO load is a good load just as NO drag is a good drag in flight unless you can trade the drag for lift like flaps can. Full size cars would be more aerodynamic with a smaller front grill but it needs to be big enough to let in cooler air.
The point is - the capacitor is going to do nothing good enough for you in a combustion powered situation so why bother? If electric-it won't hurt much besides making the plane heavier. As long as the capacitor doesn't go bad and short out.
Every capacitor is a load. Much like there is no such thing as a perfect insulator-we simply change the point (voltage or temp) at which it becomes a conductor. Nobody has ever built a perfect capacitor and never will.
The capacitor should not overload the system but would apply a slight load. NO load is a good load just as NO drag is a good drag in flight unless you can trade the drag for lift like flaps can. Full size cars would be more aerodynamic with a smaller front grill but it needs to be big enough to let in cooler air.
The point is - the capacitor is going to do nothing good enough for you in a combustion powered situation so why bother? If electric-it won't hurt much besides making the plane heavier. As long as the capacitor doesn't go bad and short out.
Every capacitor is a load. Much like there is no such thing as a perfect insulator-we simply change the point (voltage or temp) at which it becomes a conductor. Nobody has ever built a perfect capacitor and never will.
03-16-2012, 11:32 AM
#68
Senior Member
RE: What causes a brownout?
The load the capacitor puts on the system is negligable, so small you would have difficulty even measureing it. However, it will not help much as anything large enough to handle the spike loads would be so big physically that it would not be practical.
03-16-2012, 02:29 PM
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RE: What causes a brownout?
ORIGINAL: opjose
Give Kiwibob72 a CIGAR!
Yup.
A lot of newbies, and some ''old timers'' forget that a signel standard server can draw close to 2 AMPS (!!!) as it approaches stall.
A bit of binding, times the number of high draw digital servos you are running, plus the age of the battery pack and you have a WONDERFUL recipe for brownouts. One or two servos alone can cause the problem.
Upping the voltage is not a bad idea, but not exactly required, upping your battery capacity however is a MUST to avoid brownouts, or do both to be safe.
ORIGINAL: kiwibob72
I have been running that exact AR6200 receiver on a 50 sized nitro heli for over two years now (5 high torque digital servos and a gyro all running at once), but with a 6v Nimh pack that was new at the time, and not once have I suffered a single brown out issue or something even remotely related to a glitch. On that basis, I'd say you have hit the nail on the head re your problem!
I have been running that exact AR6200 receiver on a 50 sized nitro heli for over two years now (5 high torque digital servos and a gyro all running at once), but with a 6v Nimh pack that was new at the time, and not once have I suffered a single brown out issue or something even remotely related to a glitch. On that basis, I'd say you have hit the nail on the head re your problem!
Yup.
A lot of newbies, and some ''old timers'' forget that a signel standard server can draw close to 2 AMPS (!!!) as it approaches stall.
A bit of binding, times the number of high draw digital servos you are running, plus the age of the battery pack and you have a WONDERFUL recipe for brownouts. One or two servos alone can cause the problem.
Upping the voltage is not a bad idea, but not exactly required, upping your battery capacity however is a MUST to avoid brownouts, or do both to be safe.
While I appreciate the offer and sentiment behind it .... I'll decline your cigar thanks .... cough cough cough
As for voltage, pack capacity etc, and taking into account the simple fact a DSM2 receiver can brown out at low voltage (which on a small capacity 4.8 pack can easily occur under sever servo load) - I never understood while people would EVER use a small capacity (1200mah or so) 4.8v pack on a DSM2 system akin to what I use.
Guys over on the heli forum I use have worked out that a nitro heli like mine for general sport flight will consume about 350mah off a pack in one ten min flight (5 high torque digital servos and a gyro under 100% movement all the time on a given flight), so even though I run 2450mah 6v packs, I still do not push the pack beyond 4 flights as I do not want get even remotely close to a KNOWN point of issue (brown out) that can be caused by the loads a big 7.9lb heli like mine can generate.
Currently I'm building a 65" P51 that will be running a total of 9 metal geared digital servos in it (including the two each in the flaps and retracts controls, so there are 5 for 'normal' flight controls), while I know from my heli that I can easily get 40 min of flight off my standard 6volt 2450mah packs with 5 digital metal geared servos in use, as I'll be running a gas motor that can run for + 30min straight on one tank, I am looking at putting a twin battery pack redundancy system on my receiver to compensate for the simple fact I'll want more than one flight in a day, and that I also have 4 other servos that will be drawing current at some point during landing and takeoff that I also must address.
The simple point is that IMO we all should be taking the time to ensure our battery that allows for control on our models is up to the task. Yes electrics are a dark art for most people, and while I am no expert or even close, I still have taken the time to learn that just because a power supply system I have in one model works fine, that that same syste m may not be even close to suitable for what I might need to SAFELY run another model. We all have a responsibility to ensure that what we set up is safe to run, and that failures to do so should never be acceptable in this hobby where we can and do have big 100kph 'bullets' at out control.
03-19-2012, 04:22 AM
#72
RE: What causes a brownout?
I have to admit, this is a series of very interesting replies to this problem. And, I hope everyone has learned something from this.
Since I bought my Spektrum DX7 system when they first came out, recall that the complaints of receiver brown-outs were pretty prevelant at that time, there was two solutions. One official, "send your RX back for a fix" and the second non-official made by many posters here, including me "Switch to 5 cell - 6 volt (nominal) packs of sufficient capacity.
Sufficient capacity would depend on the application (typical flying style and number and type of servos). For me it was 1200 mah. That worked pretty well for all but my Venus II and my Excelleron 90 pattern planes. I opted to use a pair of 1200 mah 6 volt packs (NiMh by the way. not that it matters). The pair was a safety issue and it proved to be a blessing when one battery failed in flight and I was unaware of it until landing and doing my usual post flight checks.
1200 mah usually gave me four comfortable flights. Then, I would usually switch planes, batteries, or recharge.
I have never.. NEVER experienced a brown-out.
I can say that I crashed two planes using 72 MHz when I flew them after flying all day on 2.4 GHz and that was from sheer stupidity by forgetting to raise the antenna..
but that was not the receiver's fault.. it was more of a transmitter problem, or more of a problem of the half-wit holding the transmitter. (don't get offended now.. I am talking about myself here and I am permitted to do that 
.
I have now moved two planes up to the A123 series of LiFePO4, both are 1800 mah in capacity. The only problem with these are that the discharge plateau is very sharp. When they are close to exhausted, well, you better get the plane on the ground. They will die pretty quickly.
I use Voltwatch 2 on all my planes which is a good tool for pre-post flight system checks but for LiFePO4 packs, well, they also work, but won't give you a warm fuzzy after, say, the fourth or fifth flight on that pack. You could be close to empty and not really know it unless you keep close track of your flights and agressive about keeping track of your flight activity. So far, I have had no problems at all with them.
To me, the bottom line of all this is to use batteries of sufficient capacity and voltage for your application. You really should know what servos are in use, and be aware of your flying style (are you heavy on the servos - someone pointed out that 3D uses more battery capacity than typical sport flying, and what should go without saying, but I will say it, make darned sure your servo linkage is free moving and that your servos to not bind at the end of their movement - that they are properly adjusted so that they operate in the range of movement that they can provide. Binding servos can, and will, drain a pack, and drain it much faster than most folks will realize - result... the least of the problem being brownout.
CGr.
Since I bought my Spektrum DX7 system when they first came out, recall that the complaints of receiver brown-outs were pretty prevelant at that time, there was two solutions. One official, "send your RX back for a fix" and the second non-official made by many posters here, including me "Switch to 5 cell - 6 volt (nominal) packs of sufficient capacity.
Sufficient capacity would depend on the application (typical flying style and number and type of servos). For me it was 1200 mah. That worked pretty well for all but my Venus II and my Excelleron 90 pattern planes. I opted to use a pair of 1200 mah 6 volt packs (NiMh by the way. not that it matters). The pair was a safety issue and it proved to be a blessing when one battery failed in flight and I was unaware of it until landing and doing my usual post flight checks.
1200 mah usually gave me four comfortable flights. Then, I would usually switch planes, batteries, or recharge.
I have never.. NEVER experienced a brown-out.
I can say that I crashed two planes using 72 MHz when I flew them after flying all day on 2.4 GHz and that was from sheer stupidity by forgetting to raise the antenna..
but that was not the receiver's fault.. it was more of a transmitter problem, or more of a problem of the half-wit holding the transmitter. (don't get offended now.. I am talking about myself here and I am permitted to do that .I have now moved two planes up to the A123 series of LiFePO4, both are 1800 mah in capacity. The only problem with these are that the discharge plateau is very sharp. When they are close to exhausted, well, you better get the plane on the ground. They will die pretty quickly.
I use Voltwatch 2 on all my planes which is a good tool for pre-post flight system checks but for LiFePO4 packs, well, they also work, but won't give you a warm fuzzy after, say, the fourth or fifth flight on that pack. You could be close to empty and not really know it unless you keep close track of your flights and agressive about keeping track of your flight activity. So far, I have had no problems at all with them.
To me, the bottom line of all this is to use batteries of sufficient capacity and voltage for your application. You really should know what servos are in use, and be aware of your flying style (are you heavy on the servos - someone pointed out that 3D uses more battery capacity than typical sport flying, and what should go without saying, but I will say it, make darned sure your servo linkage is free moving and that your servos to not bind at the end of their movement - that they are properly adjusted so that they operate in the range of movement that they can provide. Binding servos can, and will, drain a pack, and drain it much faster than most folks will realize - result... the least of the problem being brownout.
CGr.
03-19-2012, 05:32 AM
#73
RE: What causes a brownout?
Everyone claims there is no easy way to test life batteries for the remaining capacity at the field. I would like to relate my experience with a tester made by Hyperion. I purchased mine http://www.hyperion-world.com/produc...HP-EOS07SENTRY then tested it. With the push of a button it checks the voltage in each individual cell and rates the remaining capacity by percent. Several times now I have run different packs partially and fully down and checked the status of remaining capacity. For example one pack tested out that it had 50 % remaining. I charged the 3300 mA pack and it took 1800 mA to full charge. All the other packs at differing levels checked out within 10% or less of the checked capacity. I have used this individual cell check feature to recover several lipo packs that have become so imbalanced they fault out when I attempted to balance charge them. I simply charged each cell individually through the balance jack and in all but one case the fully charged cells were within less than .1% of each other.
Dennis
Dennis
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