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Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Old 07-30-2013, 05:27 AM
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carl24bpool
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Default Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

I'm looking out of my window and wanting to go flying but its too gusty.

I was thinking. Say the take off speed of my plane is 40mph.

If I went out in a 40mph wind would my plane take off on the spot without having to move forward as long as the thrust from the prop was enough to counteract the wind blowing it backwards?

Or is there something about momentum and mass moving in relation to the earth and gravity that comes into it somewhere?

I was just thinking that in a high wind you could have your plane just flying mid air next to you. Or is this a load of rubbish?
Old 07-30-2013, 05:36 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?


ORIGINAL: carl24bpool

If I went out in a 40mph wind would my plane take off on the spot without having to move forward as long as the thrust from the prop was enough to counteract the wind blowing it backwards?
Yes, if the wind were steady enough the plane would levitate like a helicopter. The difficulty is getting it "just right" so that it niether flys forward or backward. I made a hovering three point landing with a GP Dazzler at Speedfest III in Stillwater OK last April. Got a round of applause from everyone


ORIGINAL: carl24bpool
Or is there something about momentum and mass moving in relation to the earth and gravity that comes into it somewhere?
Nope, that's why aircraft carriers sail into the wind to get more airspeed on the aircraft's wings before they take off.

ORIGINAL: carl24bpool
I was just thinking that in a high wind you could have your plane just flying mid air next to you. Or is this a load of rubbish?
Not rubbish, just hard to find wind in air that is not too turbulent that close to the ground.
Old 07-30-2013, 05:50 AM
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jester_s1
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

The second that your wheels break ground your plane has no idea what's happening in relation to the ground. Flying is 100% about how air is moving over the wings. So yes, a plane can be in flight and be motionless or even moving backwards in relation to the ground. I've had several takeoffs with my Cub where a gust of wind lifted it 2-3 feet off the ground before I had even lifted the tail.

That said, with wind also comes turbulence, and if you are only flying at the speed of the wind, the turbulence is going to toss your plane around a lot. On a "gusty" day the turbulence can actually be more powerful than the wind itself, not to mention that gusty wind starts and stops. So if you are putting along in your trainer a gust of wind will hit the nose and raise it, which reduces your ground speed and puts the wing in a position to stall. Then a lull follows which puts the wing into a stall even though your engine is still running and the plane was flying fine a second ago. You have to work the elevator to keep the nose level or even down a bit when the gusts hit and keep more throttle in it than normal to prevent those stalls. If you don't you'll get a quick lesson in stall recoveries that hopefully won't happen too close to the ground.

I think it's fun to get up in 15-20 mph wind with my Cub and see how long I can hold it in one spot, but I'm awfully busy on the sticks doing it. Beginners normally don't have the reflexes or the understanding of what the turbulence is doing to keep up with it, so your chances of crashing go up substantially on windy days. I was lucky/unlucky depending on how you look at it in that I learned at a field that's right by a lake where the wind is always blowing. I didn't have a lot of flying field days (still don't) in any given month, so if it was 20 mph wind on the day that I had set aside to go out I either could chance it or I could go home and wait 2 more weeks to fly again. I wasn't willing to wait, so while many other pilots were putting up their planes I was getting mine out and having a go at it even while still on the buddy box. I leaned to play the wind before I learned to do loops and rolls. But since you're learning on your own, develop the discipline to say "no" on those windy days and save your equipment. Those are the times when a foamy sport plane comes in really handy (the Parkzone T-28 is outstanding). They bounce well and are aerodynamically designed to cut through the wind better than a trainer does.
Old 07-30-2013, 05:58 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?


ORIGINAL: MajorTomski
ORIGINAL: carl24bpool
Or is there something about momentum and mass moving in relation to the earth and gravity that comes into it somewhere?
Nope, that's why aircraft carriers sail into the wind to get more airspeed on the aircraft's wings before they take off.
To take this one step further, a loaded "Kate" torpedo bomber had a hard time launching from the aircraft carrier Kaga due to wind speed over the deck. Of all the Japanese "fleet carriers" used between Pearl Harbor and Midway, the Kaga was the only one not able to steam at 30+ knots so launching the heavy aircraft was problematic at best in no wind to light wind conditions.
Old 07-30-2013, 05:59 AM
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carl24bpool
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Thanks guys.

I'm looking forward to having a fly in that sort of weather but like Jester said its about preserving my equient at the moment. Once I'm flying the low wing I can use the high wing for those windy days to get more practicee on flying in the wind.

Its droppiing here so I hope to get out again tonight and get some video footage of my progress.
Old 07-30-2013, 07:06 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?



Smart man!



Old 07-30-2013, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Bev once posted a great photo of her out wind flying her trainer. During fueling on the bench it shows the plane a couple of feet in the air with the fuel line still attached while on the starting bench. I find the hardest part of wind flying is the landing. I have had my Extra 8 inches off the ground and just hovering in one spot right in front of me. I have one plane {the Daddy Rabbit} that I built just for high wind flying.
Old 07-30-2013, 09:43 AM
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BobFE
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

My last club was in Maine and we often had good winds and sometimes pretty gusty conditions. The thing I found with landing in the wind is often I would have to land power on. Not a big deal once you get use to it. If fact one day I was out at the club and we had no wind. I had a horrible time landing, constantly floating the plane down the runway because I was so use to the wind and power on I couldn't get use to power off.

Carl, remember, the plane does not care about the ground, it only cares about the air moving over the wing. There was a myth that if you put a plane on a large conveyer belt the plane could not get airborne because the relative speed of the plane would be zero. Mythbusters tried this out and busted the myth. I knew it would be busted, again because what makes a plane go flying is the lift generated by the air moving over the wings, not how fast the plane is moving relative to the ground. So the answer to your questions is yes, if the wind is moving fast enough the plane will take off without moving forward, but the problem is getting the plane there in the first place. When the plane is crosswind the wind will probably flip it, same with when you face the wind, the plane will probably flip backward. Like was mentioned above, that is why aircraft carriers turn into the wind before taking off, to increase the airspeed over the wings of the plane. Same with runways. All planes want to take off into the wind, makes for a shorter ground roll, and makes it easier to take off.
Old 07-30-2013, 11:31 AM
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RCKen
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

I live in Southwest Oklahoma, and like the song says... The wind really does come sweeping down the plains!!! But anyway, we learn to fly in a lot of wind that grounds other pilots. We have to otherwise would would rarely fly.

But to answer your question. In theory, as was said above. if the wind is blowing over the wing fast enough the plane will generate lift with no forward motion. it could just "pop" right up off the ground. Now to answer you question in practice. You mentioned flying in 40 mph winds. Unless you have lots of practice flying in wind you don't want to try and fly something like that. 40 mph steady and straight down the runway is predictable and you would probably be ok. But rarely does wind at that speed blow steadily. Rather, you will be dealing with a lot of gusts and "burbles" in the wind that is going to bounce the plane around as you try to land. And like I said, unless you're experienced in landing in that you'll more than likely go away from the ordeal with a broken plane.

Hope this helps

Ken
Old 07-30-2013, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

One of my favorite exercises on a windy day is to take a plane like an Lt 40 up and try and hover and better yet try and get it to go backwards... Well it only looks like its going backwards.. really its only flying slower than the wind is going.. It is a lot of fun and you sure find out a lot about what your plane looks like just before it stalls...I have never tried to lift off with zero ground speed but there is no reason that the plane would not do it.. Basically its almost the same as when the wind picks it up and blows it over .I would be a little scared to try and take off with zero ground speed because if it went wrong chances are the plane will receive some damage ..I do enough without asking for it..It might be kind of fun it tie one to a cord sort of like a glider and see if you could fly that way So taking off with zero ground speed is possible but ill advised in my opinion...
Old 07-30-2013, 11:48 AM
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carl24bpool
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Thanks guys.

its one for me to try in a year or so when i can actually fly.lol.

it would be great to start the plane and point it into the wind and throttle up until you can lift off.

possibly something to try with a foamie.
Old 07-30-2013, 12:13 PM
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BobFE
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

When I built my 4Star60 (sob )I wired it through the tx so I could use the ailerons as flaperons. I wanted to see if I could, with a good headwind, make it appear to hoover over the runway. I never got a steady enough wind to try this, but I do know the take off roll with the flaps down was about 3 ft. The plane seemed to rise like an elevator (you know, the one that carries people). I could see on a plane with a high lift wing, if you put flaps on it, taxi it into position with the flaps up, then when you are ready add some power and put down the flaps the plane could lift off without a take off roll. You should be a much better pilot, though, than you are now before you try this. Keep it up and you'll get there.
Old 07-30-2013, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Sounds like fun to me.......GO FLY IT !! Good Luck and bring it home in the same number of parts you started with.......



Just like Jester said,,,,,,,,,,The plane in the air doesn't know it's windy....if it does it don't care !!
Old 07-30-2013, 01:01 PM
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ssautter
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Study relative wind and angle-of-attack: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...lane_handbook/
It is also possible for a helicopter to experience effective-translational-lift (ETL) in a hover: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...ying_handbook/

As for RC models, if you have a simulator try slope soaring, or dynamic soaring. Hot-liners actually prefer more wind....

CRRCsim is a great soaring program if you already have a USB Tx: http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page
Old 07-30-2013, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

heck if the wind was eighty mph and the plane flew at 40 mph it would takeof ND GO BACKWARDS AT 40 MPH. I flew my 65 cub backwards more that once. thatwas full size, nota model. i never fly rc on windy days,,it makes me crash,,,hehe
Old 07-30-2013, 04:38 PM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

i had my cub tied down outside for a while and had some long 2X4s with carpet arund them tied down over the top of the wings to break any lift incase a high wind came along . i saw several planes wrecked from T-storm winds because they yanked the tie downs right out ov the ground and they were fliped over onto their backs.
Old 07-30-2013, 05:40 PM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

I flew in conditions as the one described by the OP. The problem occurred when I pulled the throttle back to idle after landing - the plane blew backwards down the runway at 40mph and rolled itself into a ball, never to be flown again.

Kurt
Old 07-31-2013, 01:22 AM
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carl24bpool
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

yeah I can see this happening easily. I think the key would be to maybe try and catch the plane with teh throttle cut, lol.

Easier said than done though in that wind.
Old 07-31-2013, 02:15 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

I had a H9 Twist years ago that I really only pulled out on windy days. I loved flying nearly vertical approaches with as little foward movement as I could get. About 1 in 10 though ended with the wind dropping off jsut as I was about to touch down and me not quick enough on the throttle to keep it in the air. I had the landing gear attached with nylon bolts, and kept a good supply of spare props with me. But there was nothing more satisfying to me than pulling off a perfect "perch and go" in the wind....
Now, I keep a STryker in the van for the same reason...
Old 07-31-2013, 02:48 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Yes, in fact it is possible to take off, fly backwards while pointed into the wind and land again.

Bob
Old 07-31-2013, 05:18 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?


ORIGINAL: jester_s1

1. The second that your wheels break ground your plane has no idea what's happening in relation to the ground. Flying is 100% about how air is moving over the wings.


2. So yes, a plane can be in flight and be motionless or even moving backwards in relation to the ground. I've had several takeoffs with my Cub where a gust of wind lifted it 2-3 feet off the ground before I had even lifted the tail.
While indeed the second part is true the first part is not. It all has to do with the misconception that the leading edge of a wing is not subjected to forces beyond the particle of air that is coming toward it. But this has been a subject that has been debated on the internet by flying enthusiasts since the old rec.model.rc newsgroup days.
Old 07-31-2013, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Well, years back i had an "electrified" 2m Olympic glider that was underpowered (like all electrics 20 years ago) and heavy. The day was windy, but steady. so, I launched the glider. It gained altitude like an elevator. Horizontally it went up, but did not penetrate the wind at all. I was afraid of turning, because I did not think it would be able to penetrate the wind to come back. so, It went up, flew for like 3 minutes and pretty much landed 10 feet away from the take off point.

On a windy day I taxied my pheaton 90 carefully out to the field, and when I turned into the wind, it lifted off, and flipped on the top wing before I had a chance to add power. That was a clear sing to me togo home and do something else that day.

Some days are good to fly 3/4" plywood kites, but not RC models.


Gerry

Old 07-31-2013, 08:01 AM
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jester_s1
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

rgburrill, are you talking about ground effect? If so, I agree with you that flying at 10 feet is different than flying at 6 inches. But that's still an air interaction, not something to do with movement relative to the ground.
Old 07-31-2013, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: Is it possible to take off in high winds without ground speed?

Like Ken, I fly where the wind howls at times. I have done what you described but not intentionally. When we have a fly in I make sure there is something in the air all the time because we get hundreds of spectators. The wind was getting it one year and nobody was flying so I broke out my Goldberg Ultimate bipe. May not seem like the best choice for wind but it is actually one of the best planes to fly in the wind. After my flight I brought it around and flew it in for a descent landing. My habit after landing this plane is to give it full up before taxi. This makes it easier to steer cross wind with the extra weight pushing the tail wheel down. So after my landing and the plane came to a stop I pulled full up getting ready to taxi in. Well as soon as I pulled up it jumped in the air about 2'. Luckily the 1.20AX came gave me good throttle response and I was able to fly out of it and land again. Had the OS stumbled it would have meant squatted LG or over on it's back with who knows what damage.
The thing I would caution for anybody trying to do this is the wind speed. It can gain or loss 5-10mph without notice in a split second. The gaining is not so bad, but the 5-10mph less at low alt can turn one back into a kit in a hurry.

david
Old 08-07-2013, 05:51 AM
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I have hovered my LT40 at times, and lots of stick movement needed to keep it into the wind and level. I have also done 3 point, no rollout landings with a T-34 PTS. Brought in, could not land it, flew around, and just killed the throttle(it was electric), and it settled in one spot at 6' up and just slowly came down, nice and level and plopped down on all three wheels. My two friends just stared at me.

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