I was wondering what the consensus was regarding the logical progression of aircraft for a beginner and secondly the amount of time spent with each one. I believe the old school logic would go something like this:

Trainer (PT-40, Superstar, Avistar, etc...) - First summer of flying.

Low Wing Trainer (Sig 4 Star, GP Ultra sport, etc...) - Middle summer of second year flying.

Tail Dragger (GP Mustang, etc...) - Fourth year?

Personally, I think with the awesome flying planes that are now on the market we need a new school of thought, for instance I started with a Hobbico Superstar, then went to a UCANDO 46.

Feel free to toss in your opinion, I am looking for the first 4 planes that a beginner should fly.

My list goes like this:

1) Trainer - (to learn basic flight skills) - Half of first year.

2) UCANDO 46 - (to learn slow speed flight skills and develop a higher comfort level with flying) - Second half of first year.

3) Low winger - Ultra sport, 4 star, GP Mustang - Middle of second year

4) ???

Well, I just blow your list all over the place. My first plane was a Tower Hobbies Trainer 40 kit. I started flying that and building my second plane (GP Ultimate Bipe) on the same day. Killed my trainer during a freak mid air conference between my plane and a big black bird. Finished building my bipe about a month later and started flying it. Went to an H9 Ultra Stick 40 next (had engine problems with the Ultimate, haven't gotten it back up since, lazy). Killed my UltraStick and bought another one. All in less than a year.

I think your first issue is to classify a "school of thought". I started off with a PT-40. Soloed after about 1.5 hours of stick time, and was flying my second plane (An UltraSport+) after about 5 hours of stick time. This all within the space of 4 months.

So, putting a time scope to things is an issue. 5 hours of stick time is actually quite a lot.

Anyways.... There is a lot of merit in the learn slowly and properly process. I feel that I progressed on to the UltraSport before I was ready. Sure, after my first hiccough, I could fly the plane, but am I really learning much other than collision avoidance?

I have progressed quite fast at RC Flying, and I have gone around a full circle...

I started with the trainer, and learned the minimum required not to crash (orientation, dexterity). I then started to throw the trainer around to get "thrills". I soloed at pretty much the same time. When I was comfortable on my own, I bought and built an UltraSport+. Lots of fun. Lots of thrills. Can do sooo much more. BUT, I can only do sloppy loops, quick rolls, and inconsistent landings (I can do a bunch of other thingsm but not neatly). I have realised that the thrill of flying has taken me beyond what should be the beauty of flying, so I am heading back to more trainer time to master the finer aspects of flying.

So, as a beginner, you can fly thrillingly, or fly gracefully, and the direction you choose will dictate the progression of 1st, second, and so on planes.

gus

My .02'Ss only: Start with a low wing trainer and instructor.Fly that sucker until you can fly level,inverted,high wind and cross wind take off and landings,and most of the basic aerobates.Then start with a mid wing plane [mid star,Venture 60 ,Edge,Extra 300]keep the rates down so the plane is still easy to control and a friend or instructor close at hand,then fly the paint off that type of plane,as you progress add more throw and move the c/g back as the skills progress.Then get what ever you want and hone your skills to the level you're happy with,I don't think there is a certain time limit,each person is different ,each person is happy at a certain level,the big thing to me is this is a hobby and one should have fun with it.

I just wrote an article about this for my website not too long ago. Instead of repeating it all again, here's a link.

Great comments. Very useful.

i did
superstar40 trainer 2 months
midstar 40 rest of year/superstar/ 1/2A pylon racing
second year...midstar / p51 1/5 scale /kyosho breitling cap 232/ 1/2A pylon racing / corona 120e heli
3rd year midstar / p51 1/5 scale /kyosho breitling cap 232/laser 1/4scale 300/ sig hog bipe / 1/2A pylon racing / corona 120e heli
and superstar for relaxing days

Well, I have been putting alot of thought in to this subject of "Second Plane" and have made my conclusion. I would think 50% will agree/disagree. I have been training for 3 full days and can perform all the required moves to fly solo (waiting on club card to get signed off).

So, I am going with a GP U-CAN-DO 60 with an OS91 FS and a 6 channel PCM radio. I plan on making all the rates as low as possible and go from there. I have come the this after much reading hear at RCU. I also feel that all the time spent on a sim has alot to do with the fast progress compared to on sim time at all.

HI MLC! The new generation of flyers with SIM TIME will be rewriting the books on how to progress, that's for sure. Everyone knows that there are no absolutes, and we all have different abilities. The only general statement I can make is that a lot of guys move up before they gain mastery of the rudder and of throttle management, and tend to fly with nerve damage in the left hand when quick thinking and automatic reflexes are needed to avoid a wing over, or a stall on final when the conditions are less than ideal.

OOOOhhhhhh myyyy goodness ... I agree with Combatpigg .... ;-O

Seriously, I was one of the people who progressed too fast.

In response to MLC.... I believe that you are making a mistake. Hear me out.

Go ahead, and get the U-Can-Do, but do not use the minimum rates. Use the high rate settings only, and never change between high/low.

Now, go fly!

I am really not joking. The most critical thing that I believe I am missing in my abilities is the fine control and dexterity needed to make aerobatics look good. You need to be gentle on the controls. You need subtle movements. Low rates is a cheap alternative to fine control. If you are flying fast then you need to adjust your control inputs appropriately. When flying slower, then the same is true. If you want to perform a gentle manouver then just use small stick movements. Aggressive manouvers need aggressive inputs.

Finally, If you REALLY do need to make maximum throw surface changes to help save your plane, or something even more important, then you don't want to be trying to figure out if you are on high or low rates.

I have never had a compelling argument for why dual rates are useful (other than perhaps in the 3D world). There is nothing that dual rates gives you that fine dexterity can't.

In my case (with an UltraSport), a full elevator deflection (full up elevator) will cause the plane to snap at 1/3 WOT, even at the "low" rate specification. I have had to learn that if I want to control the plane in a loop then I can not simply yank at the sticks. I have to coerce them. If I loose control, yanking at the sticks just makes it worse. You have to coax the plane. But, not having the full spectum of the control surface available when you need is is even worse.

So, your second plane should teach you how to fly gently!

gus

I don't believe there is a strict natural progression of RC plane types. However, in a general sense, there are natural learning steps.

For most, some forgiving type of plane is best for learning. How forgiving, depends upon the pilot. For some this may be a high wing trainer. Others may do just fine learning the basics on a low wing plane like a 4star. A second hotter trainer really isn't needed in most cases if the pilot mastered their first trainer in the first place. A person's second plane then should give the pilot a taste of what aspect of the hobby they wish to explore. Aerobatics: get a small aerobatic plane. 3D: Get a fun fly type. Scale: Get a semi-scale plane. Etc.

This point was mentioned in some previous posts. Many solo, and after a week they decide they need their second plane. I understand the enthusiasm, but rarely has a pilot really mastered their trainer before they look for a second plane. I think it is just human nature to want to move to the next level before one is ready. IMO, you really aren't ready for your second plane until you master cross wind landings, slips, rolls, spins, etc. and the pilot shows the ability to manage throttle and can use rudder. For most pilots this takes a whole season or more.

I think this is one reason why we see many levels of trainers. It really takes a long time for most to master the basic flight skills. People want to reward themselves for reaching milestones, like first solo, etc... but since they really haven't mastered their trainer yet, they simply get a little bit hotter trainer. There is nothing wrong with this, but the second hotter trainer really isn't needed IMO.

Cheers!

HI JOHN! Couldn't agree with you more! I knew a guy who even taped styro foam airfoil sections to the bottom of his trainers' wing to make it more aerobatic. He was one of the best pilots at our field in a very short time. His financial situation forced him into learning like you described, and he passed up all the other guys that started when he did. The advanced trainers are a marketing sceme, and like you say aren't necessary, [even if they might still be fun].

For ME here's the list I should adhere to.
1st plane/ trainer
2nd flight/ new trainer
3rd flight/ yet another trainer
5 yrs later/ anyones trainer

Well im going to blow this out of the water,it really depends how you progress and how natural you feel flying.Some poeple progress way faster than others.It just makes good sense to go with what you feel comfortable with.

Speaking for myself,now this was 27yrs ago.
started out with a Bridi kit,RCM trainer 60.with a enya 60 in it,nice plane a powerhouse,fly like maybe 2 weeks,said i have to do something with this,order another one,built the wings flat.clipped the ends,put STOL fences on it,( something I forgot,I was allready a pilot ),another Enya 60,now that plane would dance.

IN the first month orderd a P-51 Mustang,built that,,bougt two pattern planes, a Patrica,and Virgo,both really hot pattern ships,I just caugth on really fast,but I also flew every evening,didnt crash a plane till my second year,and then I wouldnt call that one a real crash,during the winter I build a Steen Skybolt.neat plane,fiberglass fus,built up wings.But found out I though biplanes flew lame compared to my mustang or pattern ships,had a bad landing one day,got bored with the plane,my brother said lets have some fun with the biplane,he didnt like the way it flew either,your gonna luv this,we opened up the wings,stuffed tissue paper in both wings,added a little 50% nitro fuel,with those real long M-80 firecraker fuses,

I fueled the plane,got it ready to start,started it,my brother lite the fuses and away I went,took longer than you would think to burn enough of the wings off to bring it down.

But it still boils down to what you feel comfortable and confindent with.
And lots of flying time.

NdFrSpeed

Sims are great for beginners and advanced aerobatics, there is a lot of stuff in between that you need to learn on an actual plane. I have seen guys got right to big aerobats and never understand that you have to use you left hand to do little things like throttle management so you don't blow the ailerons off which the sim doesn't teach you.

I have also seen guys go from trainers to overpowered warbirds cause that's what they wanted to fly in the first place and 3 or 4 planes later start to figure out about tip stalls and elevator induced snaps.

When people ask "what's a good second plane?", they usually want someone to tell them it's OK to get something that might be over their ability so they can justify getting it. If you don't agree with them they go find someone else to ask.

Trainers fly like crap for the most part so after you use them for basic flight (which includes rudder manuvers) it's good to move on to a low wing semi-semetrical airfoil to learn inverted, basic aerobatics and the such. After that get the warbird or funfly or whatever floats your boat and you'll have a better foundation to build on.

Why not have instructors hook up intermediate students on a buddy-box - to give them stick time on whatever second plane the student wants to fly?

I own a hobby shop and although we don't use a buddy-cord, we will let anyone fly anything we carry, that is if they first get some stick time on our trainer first. Only been open a little over a year, but we have successfully trained a few dozen newbies in that time. Many have purchased more advanced aircraft (kits and arfs) of which we successfully helped them transition to. I'm sure there must be other hobby shop owners out there doing the same.

nascarjoe

I agree BB, but let's not leave out the semi-symmetrical high or shoulder wing.

While I am a big fan of Great Planes, I think their claim that the US 40+ is a good second airplane is nothing more than a blatant marketing pitch aimed right between the eyes of gullible beginners.

Here's how I see the progression in a nutshell:

Trainer: Learn basic flight controls, so you can take off, fly around, and land without incident.
Length of time: AS LONG AS IT TAKES. (I have had 1 student solo his first day out, I have seen others that have been flying for 20 years and still need someone standing next to them.

Intermediate Trainer: Start learning to enjoy flying without the restrictions imposed by a trainer. Learn Basic aerobatics, Crosswind landings, and some of the other more advanced techniques.
Length of time: AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

And finally, a word about your "Second Plane". I have said this before, and I'll say it again: You are more likely to crash your second plane that your first. Airplanes that are built extra light, (like the UCD) break extra easily.

Excellent responses everyone!

Minnflyer, I first thought the UCANDO was pretty fragile, then I started landing it on the wheels!

When I advanced to the UCANDO from my trainer, I didn't use a buddy box because I felt I needed low rates and dual rates don't come through the buddy cord. But I did have an "instructor" next to me the whole time, kept me out of trouble. But, before I made the transition, I was doing tailslides, trying to fly inverted and all of the standard aerobatics with my trainer. The guys at the club felt it was time to move on to something that flew well.

The problem I fear is that I have a GP P51 .40 and both the trainer and UCANDO land sooo easily that I don't know if I am being prepared for flying a "Sport - Scale" plane. We'll see this spring!

Gus, on dual rates, I don't have expo on my radio so the sticks are already pretty sensitive, and with the "barn door" control surfaces, I think it would be a little much without dual rates.
I have flown on high rates a very little bit but truth is, at my skill level, I don't need that kind of deflection to control the plane. I'm still doing the basic aerobatics with knife edge and hover thrown in. It's a good point, definately teaches you to be smooth without dual rates but I think someone should have a fair amount of exponential before they scrap the low rates.

GUS, Thanks for the tip.

Also, I plan on flying my trainer as much as possible. I am fortunate that the flying field is only a few miles from work and that will allow me to go out on weekdays. If I can fly a few times a week, it will help me come up to speed much quicker. As for the U-CAN-DO, I will be sure to be flying that with an instructor until I have a good fell for it.

Thanks to everyone on there input.

I was one of those gullible believers.

After first flight I gave myself the reward of 2 months rebuilding (not bad for 30seconds of thrills!!!!).

BUT, now that I have some more time on it, I can mostly control the beast.

Still, IT IS NOT A "STEP UP" from a trainer! It is a giant leap.

gus

Now, that is a smoke system I have not yet heard of!

gus

Thanks for setting everyone straight on that Gus.

Look at it this way guys, if the US+ was such a good "Second Plane", why would GP come out with the new "Rapture"? After all, the Rapture is basically an Ultra Sport+ with a bigger wing area and a straight chord.