Well said, Sith...well described.

IMO, the sim is EXCELLENT at certain things. It teaches you (or at least taught me and others) :

1) Don't jerk the sticks around. Smooth, easy, slow control inputs result in smooth flight. Banging sticks around result in jerky and ugly flying that leads to trouble.

2) Control reversal. The sim accurately reflects the fact in various attitudes, some flight control surfaces are reversed. Originally, a new pilot may have to THINK about which surfaces are reversed, and how to compensate...but practice will make that second nature. The sim can give you that practice.

3) Muscle memory. It takes constant repitition to make moving the sticks a natural act. Originally, new pilots must again THINK about which stick does what, and which way it needs to go, etc. The sim can again give the new pilot the 'stick time' necessary to make these things second nature.

Sims, however, are lacking in a few key areas as well:

1) As Sith described...while several sims feature exceptional physics, they just don't capture the 'feel' of certain aspects of the overall experience. For example, runways have bumps in certain places, or grass grows differently, or local winds swirl over certain terrain features, etc etc. All of these things make the aircraft behave more 'live' than strict sim physics would dictate.

2) Nerves. Let's not underestimate this factor. Doesn't matter WHO you are, when you have spectators watching, a few hundred dollars of plane on the line, bugs buzzing around, and a REAL plane doing REAL things under YOUR control...it's just different. While it's very true one pilot may respond to said nerves/pressure differently from another, we ALL respond in some way or another...and that 'stress' is different at the airfield than on the sim.

3) Randomness. Things constantly change in the real world. Clouds move, birds wander by, loud vehicles in the background, wind changes, etc etc. It's easy to think that these things don't matter. I have one friend who's learning on a sim. I disliked the cloud display on the sim, so turned it off one time. Afterwards, he found himself having SIGNIFICANTLY more problems landing. We realized it was BECAUSE of the clouds...without realizing it, he was using the repeated (and more importantly CONSISTANT) cloud patterns to frame his turn to final. Random things happen, and they can disorient or distract you at the airfield.

============================

"How effective at flight simulators?"

IMO, the answer is:

'HIGHLY effective at teaching you the mechanics and tasks of flying.'

'Very INEFFECTIVE at preparing you for the EXPERIENCE of flying.'

I have been using the G3 sim for about 8 months and i love it. I started flying rc planes in 5/05 after a week of a trainer standing beside me , no buddy box, i did my first solo. I would say that the sim has really helped me. The training plane i started out with was a harrier 3D with low rates on. I love to fly and would recomend the sim to anyone that is new to R/C.

sims will save you money if you are a newby no doubt about it you will crash less and its grat to have somthing to do when the weather is bad i use the e sky controller that comes with the free fms simulator and costs abought 35 dollars with shipping on ebay and then i bought clearview for 30 buks so for abought 65 bucks i got a simulator i enjoy as much as my buddys real flight and is much cheape just my two cents anyway these sims heal alot at general control and getting over that o crap its backwerds when its comeing at me thing also good for take offs landings and messing around with high wind conditions with out tearing up your plane

OK here is a SIM trained pilot, I am 47 years old and never even touched a transmitter of an RC airplane in my life. I wanted to fly, bought a H9 P51 trainer, a Great planes Chapman 580 and a Real Flight G3 While I built the P51 I started using the Sim, at first I was convinced the Sim was too difficult, that flying could not possibly be this hard, after a half an hour I was actually flying for as long as I like but still could not land, 2 hours later I was not only landing but flying inverted, using the rudder and landing in both directions. I continued on the sim for the next week spending as much as 3 hours at a time just shooting landings and adding more and more realism from the Sims data base. I added wind, then cross wind, then wind gusts, I added random flight failures and performed countless deadsticks. I was very confident on the sim and flew every model in the thing. Then I grabbed my new trainer and went to a local soccer field. I fueled my plane checked my controls and taxied it around for a couple minutes. The ground handling was strangely familiar as if I had done it before. Hmm well I guess I had sort of. I re-fueled and with a big lump in my throat I rolled out and added throttle watching the plane bounce along in the overly tall grass. It continued to gain speed and as it hit a bigger then normal bump it was airborne. I pulled back on the elevator and pinned the throttle wide open. The plane was very badly out of trim but I was flying it and controlling the climb while holding almost full left aileron to maintain level flight. I reached across with my left hand and dialed in some right trim and the plane remained level and I made several large orbits moving the elevator and ailerons slowly about getting a feel for the plane. It needed a tad more trim in the elevator and once I did that it would fly hands off at 3/4 throttle. It flew exactly like the simulator. I decided to perform a mock landing shot at altitude to see how the low speed characteristics were so I turned towards myself and at 150 to 200 feet of altitude I pulled the throttle back to 1/4 the engine slowed and the plane did as well. It was flying level but very nose high with quite a bit of elevator needed to maintain level flight. This was awesome. I added throttle and made a nice banked turn using a slight amount of rudder to hold altitude and set up for my first landing. I lined up for a nice left to right shot and started pulling the throttle back, just as before the plane slowed quickly and this time I did not try to maintain altitude but just held attitude and let the plane settle. Then the engine died......Now I had been so tight and nervous this whole flight and when the engine died I almost did as well. However I was on a nice approach but a little further away then I wanted so just like in the simulator, I pushed the nose down and gained a little airspeed leveling off at about 50 feet up and again let the plane just settle towards the ground not bringing up the nose and as it got to about 5 feet off the grass I pulled the elevator back and the plane flared gaining maybe a foot of altitude but then settled right down and landed perfect on a nice 3 point landing as this is a tail dragger.


I had no instruction, no buddy box nada. Just my sim. I did not even have the experience of watching other flyers fly. ever.....Well that was 15 weeks ago. I have now graduated beyond the trainer, as well as the Great Planes Cap 580 to a 50 cc gas plane. I fly fairly well and have a ton of confidence. I still have never had a single lesson from anyone I have never had a buddy cord hooked to a transmitter I was operating. I am fully Sim trained.

So in closing, I fly a $2500 Giant Scale Gasser with less then 4 months of experience and owe it all to my Simulator.

Your results may vary

i think the simulator will learn ppl the sticks, flying plane in general.. some physics understanding.. and ofcourse train the smoothness of your thumbs..

some ppl just have.. thumbs that can build houses.. but no way they are ever going to fly cos all they can do is on off:P


well atleast i want R/C sims to work.. since i just bought a E-starter and some day it will fly with me

OK, now it's my turn. I have been flying R/C for 15 years. I fly anythig I want to, thanks to the G2 sim. I practice my sim 1 to 2 hours per week on the average. I like to fly with others online. Yes, I fly my P-51 at the field just like I do on the sim. I do notice however, when I am hosting a session folks will ask me to turn off the wind. Look guys, you need to practice flying in all types of wind. I live in Kansas and there aren't many dead calm days here. The sim will teach you all you really need to know; take off, fly straight and level, perform maneuvers, and perform silk smooth landings. Beginners should first use the "Behind the Aircraft View". This shows how little the transmitter sticks need to be used to make the aircraft maneuver. Once you get the hand eye coordination thing down, switch to the R/C view like you would be at the field. Don't stick to one aircraft. Learn how to successfully fly all of the aircraft on the sim. This will make you a better pilot. My P-51 takes off differently than my Waco Biplane. There ars those at the field who hardly ever fly anything but a trainer, and they have been doing so for years. Hey, if you're happy with that fine. I prefer scale aircraft, espescially Warbirds. I always practice new maneuvers on the sim. It doesn't cost anything extra if I crash on the sim. Remember to always conduct a preflight of your aircraft, make sure the control surfaces are set up correctly and working properly, perform a range check, and NEVER fly if you are tired. Good luck and Happy Landings.

This being a beginner forum......................

Sims don't teach you a thing about hooking up your control rods/servos/horns/etc correctly. Don't do it right and you could be in a world of hurt.

Sims don't teach you a thing about starting an engine. Don't do it right and you ain't gonna fly.

Sims don't teach you a thing about setting the engine once it's running. Don't do it right and the engine either won't fly the plane worth spit, or it might fly the plane worth spit while melting itself down.

Sims don't teach you a thing about flying an out of trim airplane unless you know something about setting the sim to give you a screwed trim airplane. And even then, you know what trim you screwed. Try to fly a real model in discovery mode. Where you don't have a clue ahead of time what the out of trim screwups are. World of hurt time.

Sims don't teach you a thing about balancing your model correctly. Or looking the thing over for warps and twists and misalignments.

Sims teach you to twiddle the sticks. They're excellent for that. If you plan to "learn to fly RC model airplanes" from twiddling a sim's sticks, don't bet on your own success.

Well not sure why you are so anti Sim ???

As far as learning the mechanics of Model aircraft most people will need some guiedance, but not everyone. Most models that are built today either ARF's or RTF's have very good manuals with important steps to allow a novice to set the CG as well as set up the control throws to the manufacturers reccomended start points. If the plane is an electric then engine tuning is not much of a problem as long as the builder follows instructions. If they choose a glow motor the Evo .46 comes out of the box ready to run with very little tuning needed.

Flying a plane dramatically out of trim is a handful but I overcame it, I am sure I am not superhuman.

There is a lot to say about being self proficient and capable of teaching oneself technical and high focus skills. The person that can teach himself has a fool for a master may apply to some. I just think that in todays era of high tech Simulators are the best thing that ever happened to this hobby.

The old grumpy guy that shows up at the field with his tattered trainer and a couple annolog transmitters tethered together with a frayed buddy cord looking for his next victim,..er student may have to take a break now.

It is a brave new world. Embrace it or be run over by it.

A simulator is just that --- a SIMULATOR. It is NOT a teacher.

A sim will allow you to fly an R/C airplane without the fear of crashing that airplane. It will allow you to “feel� what movements of the sticks on the controller will do to a plane in flight. It will help to “train� your fingers to do what is necessary to properly control the flight of an R/C aircraft undo a great many different conditions and situations. It is a great learning tool that properly used, can help tremendously with your learning progression.

I hadn’t flown for more then twenty years. And prior to those twenty years my total experience consisted of less then half a dozen flights all with an instructor standing beside me. After several hours on a sim I soloed after just one buddy-box flight. But, I practiced using a syllabus from a club I found on-line. Starting with large circles, to rectangular patterns, to figure eights, all while maintaining altitude … eventually advancing to landings. By the time I flew that buddy-box flight I’d already advanced, on the simulator, to an intermediate pilot.

All of that said, there is no substitute for flying in real life. For me, nerves are a huge issue. I can do torque rolls, hover, do harriers all day on the sim. I can fly the smoothest pattern routines ever … at the field I look like a beginner practicing landings, and not doing a good job. And that’s after about 6 months of flying the real thing!

i have a G3 and really enjoy it. i just got off the thing a half hour ago. it really keeps the brain/eye/thumb link operating during these non-flying weeks of winter. i just started flying this past summer. i had a terrific instructor who showed me then and is still showing me, that there's alot to this hobby. before i flew the club trainer, i did mess around with a couple of park flyers which helped me tremendously i'm sure. but this flight simulator really is a helpful tool. it's just too bad they cost so darn much. makes it hard for some people. just my 2 cents "lets fly!"

Remember, no one made fun of the dinosaurs while they were still alive. Your 15 weeks of actual flight time certainly impresses all the heck out of me. Doubtless you've run into every conceivable situation and condition and can relate those from the "real world" to the synthetic plane you have in your controled, distraction free simulated world.

I have FMS and the 2001 version of RCFS (Dave Brown's) and they are certainly helpful. I side with Da Rock that, while they give you a boost in thumb education, they stink at teaching you the other 60% of flying. Trims, balancing, airframe truing, engine installation, tuning and maintenance, battery management, judging wind and weather, testosterone, anrenaline, etc. Testosterone kills lots of planes. Showing off, refusing to admit defeat, backing down from conditions beyond you, bull-headedness, etc.

No matter how convincing a simulator may be your sub-conscious knows the difference and you fly differently. We call it "target panic" and or "buck fever" in archery. Same thing. A teriffic shoty at paper targets falls apart when facing a live deer.

Simulators are great practice, but they're no subsitiute for the real thing. Granted, I've only briefly played with the latest versions, and they're certainly good simulations, but they are still to "canned" and don't prepare you for the dozens of uncontrollable eventualities going on around you at the field. Winds, downdrafts, updrafts, grass height, change in C.G. from fuel consumption, other pilots, bugs,, other pilots bugging you, non-pilots who bug you, sun (never saw a sinulator that has the screen go all white fo 20 seconds when you "look" at the sun), bad fuel, aileron flutter, loose clevis, frustration from bad idle, dead sticks whan it konks out, accumulated battle damage from prior flights, etc.

Granted, having the basics down from simulator time helps you deal with the rest that comes along, but alone they don't make you a pilot.

i totally agree with this post..........experience is the best teacher. man, who ever said that, hit it right on the head, that's for certain. sitting here in your easy chair in the comfort of your home and flying....man, that really bites the big one...lol. well, guess i'll turn on the G3 and take a fly....chow everyone.

I'm surprised you guys let this one get by. Unfortunately, the manuals are only OK, and beginners may make errors they don't even realize. For example, three EVO46 engines I've dealt with in the past year were NOT ready to run out of the box. In fact, the limiters on both the high and low speed were way off. I've seen new RTF and ARF trainers that didn't have the hinges glued in correctly that would have come off in flight. I've seen horizontal stabilizers that wobbled and probably would have fluttered to death if flown. There are a host of things that can go wrong that an experienced instructor will find in a few minutes, but the beginner will only theorize about when he/she is staring at the remaining pile of balsa.

Simulators are a tool that supplement the instruction. I used one when I was learning, and it definitely shortened my learning curve. Yes there are those that have successfully learned to fly with the simulator without an instructor. But when it comes to learning, the most effective thing to swallow is your pride. Otherwise, you're wallet will suffer. Its been said that experience is a good teacher, but its better to learn from the mistakes of others. There are just to many mistakes to make to try to learn from just your own. Its also said that good judgement comes from experience - experience comes from bad judgement.

Brad

Sims rock

I used one years ago, flew for ages, mastered it... My pico stick was still a bit of a rush the first time i took it up

hehe, I'm very mechanically minded, i was taking everything apart from 6years, but the trick was i could put it back together as well, i think that has given me my systematical approach i have today.

My dad used to fly various types of RC plane, and alot of his knowledge helped me out, and i'd been messing about with rc cars for sometime before i got into planes, so the electronics were no problem.

I worked my way up from the pico stick, via some bigger electric's until i got to the point of taking up a 40size trainer, so much more power!, speed... well, you name it there was more of it. All flown with no real flight tuition, just my dad who hadn't by that time flown for nearly 20 years telling me kind of things to expect. I've been chasing the rush i got from working up each time ever since, good times



Anyways, the sim is great, but i wouldn't under any circumstances go from the sim directly to a big glo machine, it would be much like getting a mad ferrari as a first car, there would be a good chance you would pile into the nearest tree and maybe take someone out at the same time [:-] Just not worth the risk

Sims are great,
I learned completely on the sim, and not on G2,G3 or anything expensive ( G3 is great, if you can afford it of course), - no, I downloaded the free alpha version of FMS, and after a bit of juggling with setting up the controller ( I used a G2 controller ) and getting the screen resolution right, I found only one good plane on it and that was the Pitts Special, - it was very hard for a beginner to fly, but I persevered with it and after many flights, paying particular attention to getting the orientation right till it was second nature, practising landing again and again.
I used the throttle just a little over halfway, maybe two thirds open, as that was much more like the real thing - then I was a master - at least in my mind!

By the way, I found the sim is also great to learn how to trim the plane, - someone earlier said you can't do that!

When I went to the field with a scratch built 40 size foam & sticky tape trainer, I found the fresh air and the engine starting procedure a bit daunting, but flew it ok and was very pleased with the result, - takeoff was perhaps a tad harder than with the sim, but landing was a breeze - no real problems!

I had tried to fly a couple of times before finding FMS, with terrible results at takeoff - so the sim was the turning point of my flying career.

I could have gone to a proper flying field and found an instructor of course, but at 60 something, I tend to be a little too old and pig headed for that!

Almost agree...
Knowing how an aircraft works/flies is a great starting point.
Knowing what you need to pay attention to when building or assembling one is another.

I believe I had those down.

Then I got myself a free simulator and an electric foamy "kit" (high wing, with ailerons). Flew everything the sim could offer. Took my time putting the plane together. Went to a field and hand launched for myself. It was not pretty to start with but now, a few years later, that same plane is still in flying condition.

Glow planes tend to be bigger and faster and an instructor is definitely needed.

Oh, the controls on my planes are not "reversed". I just have a different point of view, compared with what a real pilot would see.

All the bristling and dislike for the Simulator training from some of the members posting above seem to have the same theme;

"A sim will not teach you how to build a plane, fix a plane or diagnose a problem with a plane, blah blah blah"

A sim is not about any of that, and this thread started asking how effective flight Simulators are....

If you are mechanically inclined, can build an aircraft from the instructions suppied and can leave your ego at the house, Yep You too can solo a trainer with nothing but proper Sim training. I think it is folly to ignore the good advice offered from everyone in regards to seeking assitance from local flyers but that is not always something that is available, heck some people do not have a proper AMA field within hours of their home. Some do not even know anyone that currently fly's. This is not some form of a Fraternity with secret handshakes and initiations. It is a hobby. It attacts like minded individuals that are fascinated with flight.

Today is a great era to join this hobby. with the amazing great ARF's pouring into the market, the true "Age of Electrics" turning any size plane into a quiet and clean design. And the fantastic Radio systems being developed that are eliminating the horror stories of old.

A new entrant into RC aircraft can go down to his LHS or just go online and order up a Trainer,Radio, Field Box and a Sim spend a week a couple hours at a time on the computer and be far more advanced then his counterpart of 10 years ago.

I love the comments from some how they "Never really spent any time on a Simulator" but still say they are of little importance...That is sad, and a little retarded. If you do not have any real expierance with something, well you probably should not have much to say about it.

I have no time with a buddy box, nor with an instructor, Yet I am not saying they are of no importance. I am only suggesting that they are not mandatory to learn how to operate a RC aircraft safely.

No argument there. I'm sure some percentage of 15 year olds could be handed a set of keys to a car with a 5-speed stick and make it safely from point A to point B without ever having driven before except at the NASCAR simulation at the arcade.

But certainly the transmission, fenders and surrounding drivers would be better off if some instruction was applied, and the learning curve would be flattened considerably. Some folks drive for years without realizing they aren't doing it right. I see that every day in my commute.

I've got RF G2, and I'm largely disappointed and bored by it. It doesn't model spins well at all. Straight and level? Sure. Loops and rolls? You bet. Sims have been doing those things since the '80s. Sims are a nice approximation of flying, but they're not flying.

I didn't have an instructor when I learned. Mostly because I was a stupid, prideful teenager. I'd been playing with model airplanes in one sense or another from a very young age on. Flew U-control at the park. Read RCM for years. I was familiar with glow engines from that. RC cars helped with the electronics and servo mechanics, and because of them the left/right reversal never gave me trouble. I spent a bit of time at a club field before learning to fly, picking up bits and pieces of knowledge. Built my trainer from a kit. I was very fortunate in my first flights, but in a very real sense I had spent quite a bit of time preparing.

It's all about what a person is willing to do. I think, for the vast majority of people, it's easier and more comfortable to get some help from people who have been there and done that. I would imagine everyone who uses this forum agrees with that. The more experience you get, the more you realize how many things can go wrong. When you're just starting, you don't envision any of that. You don't have any idea what problems are critical or not, or even if certain problems exist.

The other thing that a person doesn't know enough about when they're new is safety. Where is it appropriate to fly, and when? What kind of damage can this toy do if I'm not in control of it? What are the time-tested methods and procedures that are second-nature to those with experience?

The sad part is that sims can produce confidence out of proportion to experience. Logging dozens of hours behind the monitor just doesn't equate to dozens of hours of really operating a model airplane, along with all the problems and "oppsies" that attend that real-life time.

In the larger scope, sim-taught pilots can be very, very bad for the hobby. All it takes is for one--let's call him exuberantly inexperienced--fellow to harm or kill another person in a school yard, and what will happen to this hobby? Insurance rates (read AMA dues) for those of us who are "legitimate" flyers will go up. Certain companies may exit the market due to liability concerns. Some places will legislate or regulate the hobby to the point where it can't exists there. Flying fields will become harder to secure and keep than they currently are.

Large-scale ARFs and sims make the above scenario entirely too likely. There's a responsibility not just to ourselves as individuals, but to potential spectators/victims and the hobby as a whole. Please keep these things in mind.

There are a few models in both FMS and RCFS that you can invert and flat spin almost indefinately. Idle throttle and down elevator and they just drift like helium balloons. The 2000 version of RCFS would flip into an unrecoverable spin for models like Cap 232s and Pitts biplanes. Not quite how the real birds react. One (I can't recall which) had many models, warbirds included, that would land just beautifully every time if you cut throttle completely and applied full up elevator. Uh huh.

I must say the Sopwith Camel in the latest FMS is a handful (just as a scale model would be).

Worst part about FMS is that most of the WWI bipes seem to be electric and without . . . enthusiasm or charisma.

Sims also remove many pressures that can cloud judgement and complicate real flight. Imagine turning on your sim and seeing "frequency pin out - please wait 15 minutes and try again." Or, "Club loudmouth Joe Nemisis has just been overheard telling another flier that you fly like a lilly livered chicken turd and would NEVER try an inverted low pass in this much wind".

I think that the quick answer to the original question is that sims are very effective in getting you going with RC flight, but not in making you an expert flyer.
They are great fun when you've got a little spare time and bad weather.
I myself learned a lot with a sim, however I'll never be an expert flier ( who cares? - great fun).

EDIT.

SP2Pilot, you got it pretty right, - well said!

I think you can pretty easily give a FMS model a new sound.
The sounds (in FMS Beta 7 anyway) are .wav files in the 'Program Files\FMS\Model' folder. Pick one that has a nice sound, make a spare copy and rename it to match the model you want. For example, I took the 'CurtissR3C.wav' file and renamed it 'Su-26.wav' to give the Sukhoi a throaty sound.

Has anybody used the E-Sky Airplane/Helicopter Simulator kit or the PRE-Flight by Transcendental Technologies? I am looking for a good helicopter flight simulator. I just bought a Walkera 36#. I also need the interface cable.

I got RF G2, and practiced for about 6 months. After that I took my plane out and soloed it, and have had no problems yet. This isn't the recomended way to learn, but after my instructor moved away, I felt like I didn't have much choice.

LT-40

I am certain that there are several brnads of flight simulators in the market. Thus far RealFlight and Nextar has been mentioned by some of you. Are these the most popular? are there others, and how do they compare with one another? Which one would you recommend and why?