kukarzev

Hi!

I am new to RC planes, and I've just realized that it costs a lot not only to build a plane, but to fly it. I am talking about numerous fees.
As far as I understand, there is a $58 AMA membership fee plus my local club wants $100 entry fee plus $60 year membership fee.
This is over $200 in fees only, and I am not even sure what am I getting for it. It's probably more than my first plane will cost since
I am going to build a SPAD and get some used engine and RC because of cost efficiency. Can I be ok without a club?

I mean, I know that I am supposed to get an instructor, and it is virtually impossible to learn to fly on your own, but is it legal? Is there
a law that forbids me flying my plane on my own outside a club? That's one thing. Another thing is, can I possibly learn to fly on my own
using simulators? At least learn good enough, so I wouldn't trash the plane immediately on every takeoff? In principle even crashing planes
doesn't look that bad as long as the engine survives. I am about to build a BUHOR(www.spadtothebone.com) or something similar, and it
doesn't look too complex, I can build two or three of them.

So, what do you think? Thanks in advance.

FHHuber

The AMA fee goes partially to pay for liability insurance in case you damage something or hit someone with the model. Note that if you are under 19, you can get AMA membership for as little as $1.

Full membership (or the youth + magazine at I think $15..) gets the Model Aviation Magazine. This publication has a lot of information about what is going on in all aspects of model airplane flying. The Free Flight and Control Line sections CAN provide useful information for RC modeling... so I read ALL of it. The comparative value of the magazine subscription is about $20. (compare to Flying Models and Model Airplane News.)

The AMA "runs interference" with the FCC and FAA trying to keep the Federal government out of the hobby. Without the AMA, we'd probably have some stricter regulations on flying RC models than they have in Europe. (In some countries they have a flight training requirement to get a licence to operate the RC models. Sort of like the US driver licence system, with learner's permits and age requirements.) The AMA is often seen as trying to limit the hobbiests... they are doing the opposite. They are working to prevent stricter limits from being implimented.

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The clubs charges are uually based on the cost of maintaining thier flying site, and supporting one or two charitable functions. Some clubs don't actually use dues money for the charities, but almost all will support a progrm such as Toys For Tots with a toy donation drive of some nature. Some clubs pay the annual fee to get a newspaper subscription for a class at a school... (its not terribly expensive for the club to do soething like that and its good public relations.)

Keeping the flying site is normally the biggest expense for a club. 2nd in line is usually runway maintenance and making improvements to the site. Our club just spent appx $1500 for materials to resurface the runway.... just a tar compound that the club members spread with oversize "squeegees". That's a HUGE expense for a 40 to 45 member club that charges $40 a year dues... We are going to need a new lawnmower soon... that's going to cost about $3500 to $5000. Mowing 5 acres one to two times a month 8 months a year is tough on a lwan tractor...

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There's a lot of costs involved in keeping flying sites. The AMA providing insurance... and the clubs distributing the cost of the flying sites over the members who use it are the only practical method found to handle it.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

thats a high entry/dues fee mine is $35/year, unless you have 20 acres of land in the country ,you need to join a club , and in order to do that you have to join the AMA... your other option is to go with a parkflyer, check that forum, I started out that way flying in the schoolyard up the street on saturday mornings, you can get a plane and radio from gws for around $200,, never fly with anyone around!!!!!......Rog

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

While it is legal to learn to fly on your own. It is usually unwise and expensive.

HoboDog

My Feedback: (1)

I learned to fly my simulator first. Then I lost a firebird in a tree. Then I learned to fly a Slow Stick in my backyard (8 acres). Then I learned to fly a SoarStar in my backyard. Then I built a Dandy Sport. I joined the AMA and took the Dandy Sport to the local club yesterday for an instructor to test fly and trim. I have not flown it yet. I will be taking some dual instruction on Tuesday. I think the park fliers can be learned on your own if you keep safety in mind. Big field, no wind, no other people or property in harms way, and some luck.
When I went to ailerons and more speed I went for help and instruction.

goliath-RCU

My Feedback: (8)

You can fly anywhere you want. The worst thing that could happen is that you get chased off. Make sure you dont put any identifiing info on your plane in case it gets away and hurts someone or someone's property. You dont need an instructor because your flying those cheap junky spads any way,so what if you crash alot, you'll learn to fly without crashing soon enough.

C_Watkins

My Feedback: (10)

What?

Way to shirk your personal responsibilities there.
You most assuredly should have your personal info inside your planes, in case it does end up causing harm.
Advice like the above is exactly the sort of thing that can do irreversible harm to our hobby, eventually.
We should all be responsible for our actions.


Besides... there's always the chance that it won't do any harm at all... and that someone could find
it who would like to return it to you, if they only had a way to get in touch

SwampFlier-RCU

If you plan to learn on your own.. make sure you're not at least 3 miles closer to a flying field or you run the risk of interfering with other people's airplanes and cause them a loss.

Have you tried to go to your club's meetings, maybe they have a beginner's course or somebody would lend you a trainer to practice on and get you on the air, second hand equipment would make it cheap (SPADS too) but try to get some help.
Some clubs put off the fee until you've soloed

Crashem

kukarzev,

If You think the costs are high this might not be the right hobby for you

GTac01

I learned to fly on my own with only a sim. Ive joined the ama and joining the club soon... Even though in my opinion, it sucks to fly with all those old people, which brings the other reasons why it sucks to fly with them...

spokman

My Feedback: (2)

As far as liability goes and I hear about this on this board a lot. Most homeowners or renters insurance covers personal liability. Check with your insurance agent to make sure you are covered. That's one of the touted AMA things but it says right in the included information that your homeowers or renters insurance will be first in line for liability. Basicly AMA insurance is meaningless unless you live in an apartment without renters insurance. I'll probably catch flack for that statement but that's ok. The truth is the truth.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

First, Goliaths posts was a joke. Do NOT do what he suggested.

This is not a cheap hobby (is there even such a thing?) I generally tell most people that they should expect to pay $500 to start and it goes up from there. As with most hoibbies, there are many "hidden" costs, i.e. the plane is just a small part of your overall costs. For example, golf. You can buy some cheap used clubs, but you still need to pay the ongoing green fees to play. Basically what you are asking is if it is OK to go just anywhere, tee up and start wacking golf balls so you don't have to pay green fees.

On that, unless you own ground suitable for use as a flying site, I'd strongly suggest joining the AMA an a local club. $60 club dues and $100 entry fee is not abnormally high if the flying site is nice. My club dues are $95 per year. However, you may wish to look for a less expensive club. Many clubs offer dues under $50, no initiation fee. What do you get for the AMA and club fees? The club should be obvious, you obtain access to a safe, legal and insured place to fly your plane. The AMA provides secondary insurance as well as helping keep RC possible in the US in the first place.

Is there a law the forbids you from flying outside the club? Depends on what you mean. On your own property, you can probably do what you want within reason. Overfly properly you don't own without permission and your are trespassing, which is illegal. Even with permission, you can get into serious trouble. Crash your plane and injure someone and the $118 yearly dues for a safe flying site will look mighty small compared to lawyer fees and judgments. Laws will vary from municipality to municipality, but in many cities, (mine included) it is against city ordinance to fly in city parks. My guess is the fine is larger than our club dues.

Yes, you can learn to fly on your own. A sim is a great tool. But don't be fooled into thinking you will save fees this way. One good crash and you can total your entire plane, including the engine and radio, and yes, it can easily occur seconds after takeoff. The sim is just that, a sim. Real life is different. The only time I sugegst learning on your own is when it is impractical to find an instructor. I.E., newbie lives in BFE and nearest club is 100 miles away.

Cheers.

3D Flyer

My Feedback: (37)

Goliath-RCU:

I could not DISAGREE more. This is irresponsible and is just the kind thing that gets people
into big trouble. This kind of irresponsible action is also what gives the hobby/sport a bad rap.

Be responsible for your actions.

AMA promotes responsible actions by insisting that you place you name, address, and AMA number
in the plane .... this make sense. If you have an accident you SHOULD make good for it either with your
insurance or out of your pocket.

If you are not willing to take ownership of your actions, DON'T FLY.

My advise to the original question is to get the AMA insurance and if you find it is too high a cost you
should not be in the hobby. Insurance is VERY important in this hobby. Also, you should have an instructor.
You could have an accident and really hurt, or worse, kill someone. Again, if the club dues are too high, this may be the wrong hobby for you.

Be smart: get insurance and get an instructor.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

Spokman: Yes, AMA is secondary. However, it's limits are probably larger than what most people carry for liability. So, even if you have liability, in a serious (i.e. expensive) accident, AMA insurance may kick in anyway. What many seem to forget is that the AMA is a lot more than just insurance. But reguardless, lets look closer at AMA's insurance. They also offer clubs cheap liability insurace, which lowers club cost, they insure events, and they provide a simple way to verify insurance. Many may ho-hum these issues, but belive me, they are significant. I've seen clubs that aren't AMA that must buy site liability insurance on thier own and try to verify insurance on non-AMA members. It is possible, but it is more expensive not to mention a lot more time consuming.

spokman

My Feedback: (2)

I'm sure of that John. It just seems a little expensive for what you get from the AMA. Some stickers and insurance that you really don't need. Selling clubs inexpensive insurance is something I hadn't considered. I had figured that because all members were AMA they didn't need insurance? Isn't that like double taxation? Club has insurance and members do to?

FHHuber

Wrong... the worst that can happen is not just getting chased off... you can be put in jail for criminal trespass if you smash your airplane into something.

If you have no permission to be at the site and fly... then because you are trespassing, your homeowner's insurance (and if you have it your AMA insurance) is VOID. they woh't cover ANY damage you do when committing a crime. So having dmaged something (maybe hurt someone... you are not only in jail... you are sued and end up bankrupt for life.


THAT is NOT the worst that can happen.....

kukarzev

Guys, I appreciate the discussion but let's get something straight. I DO NOT hit and run, and I do not intend to do so. By cutting the membership fees I am not trying to rob anyone, I am just trying to make this thing less expensive for myself, at least in the beginning, while I do not know what to expect from all this. What I am talking about, is that I think I can find a piece of land that is unoccupied by people and property, where it is relatively safe to fly, spare my own well being. As I gathered from this forum, an engine usually survives a crash, and a radio even more often so. I am willing to take the risk. SPADs are cheap, and I do not mind crashing a couple of them, it is still cheaper than the fees. And now the simulators are available, and people speak well of them.

I guess, my question mainly is: "If I build a plane, and spend reasonable time flying simulators, do I have a good chance to start flying on my own, provided that I will have found a reasonably safe place to do so?"

And another thing. I really DO NOT appreciate remarks like: "If you do not have $500 to spend on RC right away, forget about it, you are too poor for us." If you do not have anything else to say but that, please just keep it to yourself. An advice on cutting the cost and spending money efficiently would be much more of use than bashing like this one.

Thanks for everybody who is willing to share their experience. Please keep it coming.

causeitflies

As was mentioned earlier, I would "shop" around for a less expensive club. You may have to travel a little further and the facilities may not be as nice, but you may be able to cut your costs some.

canmann

I too am new to the hobby so I know what you are saying about $$$
You probably can get started with a park flyer on your own but your missing out on the real fun of flying
Getting to know other people and sharing experiances is 2/3 the fun
Joining the AMA is a good first step
It tells people your serious about being part of a group dedicated to improving flying
There are probably public fields that you can fly at for free
An instructor will not only save money in the long run (crash = cash) but direct you to places and groups where you can get envloved at your own pace.
Most hobby shops can direct you to an instructor who will teach you for free without joining a club.
When you see all the high tech stuff ($$$) associated with the sport it can get intimidateing but it's not that bad if you exersise patience.

Don't give up - You'll miss the fun!

causeitflies

Just to use an example that may not apply to your area or situation. The club I fly with just "raised" dues to $45 last year. There is no initiation fee. The field is on state property and is maintained by the club. All that is required to fly is AMA. You do not have to join the club to fly at the field.

A couple of weeks ago a guy came out to fly his Nexstar with no experience other than the simulator. He was determined to fly or crash no matter what. I convinced him to at least let me take it up and trim it out. I did and handed it over to him. He proceeded to fly around without much help from me and brought it in for a no damage landing. I have heard that since then he has gone out and got a few more successful flights under his belt.

Now I'm sure that I will see him at the field and he will ask for some further instruction, but it only cost him the price of the kit, simulator, and AMA. Your mileage may vary.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

Spokman: No, it is not "double taxation." The club must insure itself and the land owner (if the club doesn't own the land) becasue they can be sued too. Your AMA insurance will not cover you if you trip and fall at the flying site and break your arm. But the clubs insurance would cover them when you sue them for medical bills.

Kukarzav: I really don't believe you will be saving much if anything. Most clubs offer free flying lessons. These lessons can save you thousands in busted airplanes. Instructors can also make your hobby much more enjoyable. The first time you can't get your engine started and you spend two hours brewing only to go home without a single flight you wish you had someone to help on site. RCU is great, but nothing beats a live instructor at your side. And, maybe most importantly, you'll meet a lot of really neat people at a club. Look for a cheaper club. The $100+$60 is at the high side of what most clubs charge.

"I really DO NOT appreciate remarks like: "If you do not have $500 to spend on RC right away, forget about it, you are too poor for us." If you do not have anything else to say but that, please just keep it to yourself. An advice on cutting the cost and spending money efficiently would be much more of use than bashing like this one. " - This obviouly refers to me and my post. First, I never said this and second, as far as I'm concerned, you are bashing me for pointing out the obvious: The average newbie spends $500 to get started. You don't save money by not buing insurance and not paying club dues for a safe place to fly. There are a lot of things all of us can't afford... that's life, deal with it. If you want to save money, JOIN THE AMA AND THE LOCAL CLUB... it could potentially save you millions.

goliath-RCU

My Feedback: (8)

Well seriously if you want to save money stick with the spad thing, look for a "public" flying field. and maybe invest in an FMA copilot stabilization system (I used this system when I taught myself to fly) You can also get a 90 day AMA card for $19 just in case.

kukarzev

John, honestly my remark was not pointing to you. Your replies are quite informative, and I am thankful for them. My remark was not pointing to any particular post in this thread. It's just that I read this forum only last few days, and I already saw tons of more or less rude comments of the nature that I described. I was hoping not to see much of it in this thread.

3D Flyer

My Feedback: (37)

Remember, you not only want to limit you personal liability but you
want to ensure YOUR safety too. Nitro planes have the potential to kill you if you are
hit in the wrong spot. I have heard of glider pilots hitting themselves and dying (the glider hit
the mans spline and he internally bled to death before he could get to the hospital)

I would suggest you get a park-flyer if expense is an issue. This way you can easily learn to fly,
you can do it from any open area park, its quiet, its relatively easy to fly, and it is not too likely
to hurt you or anyone else. No AMA required, no club required, no instructor required, but you can still fly.

A Firebird XL is a good choice.

Good luck, its a fun hobby and I encourage you to do it.

Crashem

I'll assume you were refering to my comment. Let me clarify every activity has some type of cost. From your initial post it appeared that those costs were out of your price range hence my suggestion I wasn't implying that you were too poor that is a call only you can make


After reading your other post it becomes clear that you are not interested in advice you seem to be looking for validation of a decision you have already made (i.e. going it alone with spads) If that is in fact the case why bother asking for opinions? JUST DO IT!!!!

The cheapest and safest course of action has already been explained to you... Feel free to choose another method just don't lash out at those attempting to help you!!!

BTW Don't bet the farm on the engine and radio survivng a crash!!! Its very easy and common place to break a needle valve assembly strip servo gear trains and rip out servo leads etc.. in a crash! all of these items can be repaired/replaced but it costs money!!!