Jumpnjoe

I have recently solo'd and was taught to use the rudder to line up with the runway and my ailerons just for leveling the wings. Some other guys at the field have since told me that is the "old school" way to fly. The instructor that taught me to land has been flying for about 20 years, so maybe he has taught me an "old school" way of landing. Also some people have have told me to not have the throttle down to idle until I'm going to touch down, but when I do that, I come in smokin' and bounce it everytime. I have a NexSTAR, which loves to bounce anyway, but other people have told me to throttle down as soon as I've made the runway. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have 10 solos and nothing more than a little smaller prop than when I started. I still have my speed flaps and airfoil wing extensions on even though the (old school instructor) says their not helping me. (whatever that means).

forestroke

I think that your instructor is right, though I'm no expert, either. The rudder should be used for landings once you've lined yourself up with the runway. This allows you to land smoothly in cross winds. If you simply use aileron, it can be done as well but it is likely that you'll end up scratching a wing tip or two. Ultimately, the best method is to use both depending on what is happening. If you are fighting cross winds, rudder will be more helpful than aileron... if your still trying to line up, then aileron/elevator is fine as well... but when you're close to the ground, rudder and aileron to level is best.

As for the throttle, when you mean throttle down, do you mean cut the throttle as in stop the engine? If that is the case, of course I won't recommend it. If it mean to idle it, then once you get above the front of the runway, you can idle. Of course, it really depends on the airplane... if those flaps do cause a lot of resistance, a little gas may not be unwarranted... but if it like everyone other trainer out there, then just idle it early and let it glide. my 2 cents

Jumpnjoe

Thanks fourstroke. That makes sense. I just meant throttle down to idle. Some guys are saying that I'm bouncing it because the throttle's not high enough. I think NexSTARs just like to bounce though. At the end of the runway, I cut the throttle (down to idle) when it gets approximately 3-5 feet off the runway, I gently apply a tiny up elevator to flare. If there's a little wind, sometimes it doesn't bounce. No wind, always a bounce!

Jumpnjoe

Sorry Forestroke, anyway let me clarify my last post. When I get to the end of the runway, I cut the throttle back to idle if it's not already there. I am gently moving the elevator to bring the plane down and slow it down, and when it's about 3-5 feet off the ground, I flare it with the elevator trying to softly let it down. If there's some wind, say 5-10 mph, sometimes I don't bounce it. But if there's little or no wind, it'll bounce every time. I think what he means (my instructor) by the speed brakes and leading-edge extensions not helping, is because it comes down pretty steep, because of the flaps. But if I take off the flaps I need to take off the leading-edge extensions to prevent a major adjustments in the elevator. I don't think I'm ready for that until I don't bounce the plane. Maybe I need to have them off in order to not bounce the plane! Help!

ifixairplanes

My Feedback: (9)

jumpnjoe: I am currently teachin 4 different people on nexstars. they are an awsome plane. What i have found with this plane is it does like to bounce. Best procedure with this plane is to decend on your downwind leg with throttle around 1/4 to 1/3 throttle try to keep speed low. Turn base and as you do go to idle. Turn final and guide your plane in. once above the runway, slowly apply back pressure on the stick. Get your plane about 6"-12" above the runway and try your hardest to keep it flying slow, keep pulling back on the stick and then it settle down gently on wont bounce. good luck, happy flying!

sean

taurus02914

What an awsome plane! I always try to slow way before final turn, then get back on the throttle slightly and try to be coming into the runway with some throttle, so you will get that driving forward motion, as opposed to that floating feeling, you might also feel a little more in controll that way also. Hope it helps!
Good Luck

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

jumpinjoe,
Not sure who it is that's telling you using rudder while landing is "old school", but they're full of crap! Are you sure they aren't pulling your leg?

The only thing old school about flying that way, is that too many people today aren't taught how to use the rudder, and that's not a good thing. Once you have a little more experience you'll be greasing in landings in virtually any conditions, while those "new school" flyers will be grounded, (or cartwheeling down the runway).

As far as when to throttle back to idle, it really depends on the plane, wind conditions, how far out you make your turn to final, and how long your runway is. Bouncing on landing can be caused by trying to land too slowly (the plane stalls, hits the ground a bit too hard and bounces some), or usually, trying to put it down when moving too fast (the airfoil sees a bit of positive angle of attack and wants to fly again). Springy landing gear will make the latter situation worse.

In most relatively calm conditions though I throttle back after I hit the runway threshold, as you do. That being said, I'm also slowly reducing throttle from the downwind, through base and final, which is what you should be doing. You want to control your descent rate with throttle, not elevator. (Or actually it's more a combination of throttle and elevator, but....)

Keep up with what you're doing, it sounds like you've been trained right, and that you have good instincts.
Dennis-

GTac01

Use your head, you know that in order for it to "not bounce" it has to come in slower, and the only way you can make it come in slower is to:

LOWER THROTTLE, but NOT before landing, do so AS NEEDED!

KantoModelAir

Personally I like to throttle to idle as I make my final turn. I usually have it a bit high, and cutting back to idle while turning brings it down with enough speed to keep from stalling. Just be sure to keep the angle of the nose pointing to the ground a little so you know you won't stall. Then a couple feet above ground, level off and use elevator to flare just before touchdown.
I have the Telemaster 40 and it lands great.
Mark

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Personally, I'd say that it depends on what stage of the landing you are at. For instance, when turninbg final(s), I will use mostly aileron & elevator, with some rudder added for co-ordination. However, once I am "roughly" on runway heading and am just adjusting the aircraft's heading then I will use mostly rudder, with just enough (opposite) aileron to ensure that the wings stay level.


I'd suggest that you ignore any such "blanket" statements. Whether you have the throttle at this setting or the other depends on the individual approach.

During the landing, you should bear in mind that the aircraft's speed is controlled by the elevator, while the throttle controls TDP (the touch-down point). That may sound counter intuitive, since it seem obvious that throttle controls speed, right ?

Well, bear in mind that sooner or later you are going to have to land deadstick ... probably many times. If you have to land without power, and the aircraft is about to stall, how do you increase your airspeed to avoid the stall ? By lowering the nose. So, pulling the nose up slows the aircraft down, pushing it down speeds it up. If you are deadstick, straight and level, then given that there is a certain amount of drag from the airframe, you will be bleeding energy off all the time. Sooner or later your speed will drop to the point where you are going to stall unless you drop the nose enough to trade potential energy (altitude) for some more kinetic energy (forward motion). if you drop the nose moentarily, you will get enough energy to fly forward just a little more before you stall ; if you keep the nose down slightly, you will keep replenishing your kinetic energy from your store of potential energy, until you have no more altitude to trade, and the aircraft has to touch down. So, elevator controls speed.

Now, if durng the above scenario, you could add a tiny bit of power from a running engine, your kinetic enery is being supplemented by energy from the engine & prop. If we ignore any additional drag from the prop for now, this means that it takes longer for your energy to run out, requiring you to touch down. The more energy you add from the engine, the further the aircraft can fly before touching down. So, adding energy (throttle) extends your distance to touch-down ; removing energy requires you to touch down earlier ; throttle controls your touch-down point.

Now think about your regular powered approach. Depending on varying factors such as the amount and direction of the wind, your height and position (which are unlikely to be identical in all approaches), etc., the amount of energy that your aircraft has and the amount that it needs in order to touch down at a given position on the runway, will vary. So, you line up on the runway, bring the throttle back to some (arbitrary, for now) position, then use the elevator to get the aircraft's speed to be a few miles per hour over the stall speed (which you will find through experience and/or guidance from your instructor). At this point you should be able to roughly gauge the glidesope that the aircraft is following, and you should be able to determine whether that slope will cause you to touch down before, on, or after the point that you want to touch down at. If you are going to be short, then you add a little power ; if you are going to be long, you remove some power. When the power change causes the aircraft to speed up or slow down, you adjust the elevator to regain your ideal airspeed. Keep making such adjustments until you are just about to touch down. So, whether you keep some power up at a given point in the approach should depend not on whether you listen to this guy or that guy, but on whether you already have enough energy to reach your touch-down point or not.

Sounds complicated, but it isn't really - it's just practice. There are other techniques that others use for their landings, but the above is (IMO) the best way to ensure that the pilot can land under all conditions and emergencies, and not just when everything is going perfectly. This is in fact the way that the RAF tuaght me to land full scale, but it works perfectly for models too.

Regarding your bouncing - there are basically two main causes for bouncing:

1) You stalled the aircraft before touching down, and it fell out of the sky and bounced as it impacted.
2) You touched down too fast ; the aircraft wasn't ready to stop flying, so it used its excess energy to bounce back up.

(2) is, in my experience of teaching students to fly, the most common. When you get the aircraft very close to the ground, don't just let the glideslope continue on it's downward trend - you need to "flare" by adding up elevator to both raise the nose slightly) so that you touch down on the mains first, not the nosegear), and so that you also bleed off that excess 5 mph or so that you are flying above the stall speed. BTW, flaring doesn't mean that you just yank in all the elevator you have. That will just make you porpoise and then stall. You gently (and progressively) feed in just enough elevator to slow the descent, doing your utmost to hold the aircraft level with it's wheels just an inch or so above the runway.

Good luck,
Gordon

quint-rcu

My Feedback: (24)

Very good reply Gordon! I too teach at our club and wanted to compliment your post.

quint

Jumpnjoe

Everyone is being so helpful. Thanks a lot Gordon. It does make a lot of sense, and I did actually have to land dead stick on my second solo. But I was up high enough that it was no problem. And for some reason, that was my best landing yet, no bounce at all. And I would say, Gordon, that my problem is #2 also. But I think I've got the basic landing pattern down since I did navigate it good on a dead stick. Just practice, practice, practice. The landings are generally good, on the runway, not running out or coming up short, just bouncing. Although my prop is getting shorter, no other damage has resulted.

The guys who told me not to use rudder except on the ground have been flying about a year. Very good flyers but that doesn't mean they have good habits. Thanks for setting me straight.

Hey MinnFlyer, how 'bout giving me my "atta boy", made out to Joe Canchola. Thank you very much in advance.

bentgear

Jumpnjoe, go buy your instructor a steak diner for showing you how to use the rudder. Keep using it. If it becomes natural you will find that it can get you out of a lot of hairy situations without you having to think about it, like having to make a turn at just above stall speed.

Think back about what made your dead stick landing so good, then practice it. You might want to replace that prop before one of the shortened blades leaves the plane.

But most of all, have fun

Ed M.

Jumpnjoe

I was taught to throttle down just about as I'm turning onto the base leg of the pattern with my nose continually slightly down, as Kanto said. I do try to plane it out right before touchdown, and it looks like it's not going to bounce. To me it looks slow enough, and even enough with the runway that it shouldn't. But it still does, almost everytime. Like ifixairplanes said, I think this particular plane enjoys "the bounce".

I'll just keep practicing, I'm pretty sure my speed is what's causing the bounce. I just don't know if it's too fast or too slow? I just know that when I waited to cut the throttle to idle until almost touching down, I would almost run off the runway everytime, so I quit doing that, and went back to cutting it on the base leg since I have plenty of altitude. Thanks for all your input.

taurus02914

Wow Gordon I wish you were around when I learned that has got to be the best explanation of a proper landingI have ever heard.
Good Stuff!

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

One easy way to control speed on the approach is to do some experimenting at higher altitudes with throttle and trim settings. I like to find out which throttle and trim setting will give me the desired glideslope without having to hold pressure on the elevator. This is similar to how I learned to fly real aircraft. Since it's hard to trim a model to a specific airspeed, we have to rely on observation and feel.

You need something that can be easily repeated for the model. One of my models would be set up for landing by reducing the throttle to idle and then add four clicks of throttle, and pull the elevator trim to the full 'up' position. You change the trim slowly as the model slows, and use the stick to keep the attitude of the model from changing too much. The model would stabilize in an ideal approach configuration. All I had to do was make the turns at the appropriate places. I only had to use the elevator to keep the model from going up or down as the wind changed. If I misjudged, I used throttle to correct, but tried to keep off the elevator as much as possible.

This is basically what's known as a "stabilized approach" in full-size parlance. You want to have as little as possible going on during approach and landing, so eliminating (or reducing) the need to hold back stick helps a lot. When you hold back stick, the tendency is to relax a bit, and then the model will nose down, and spoil the nice line you have. You want the model to fly "by itself" as much as possible. Then, when you near the runway threshold, you reduce the throttle to idle and start to add nose up stick to round out and flare.

Try for nose-high landings so the nose gear doesn't touch before the mains. You'll eliminate a lot of bounces that way.

bax

Mike in DC

As far as a certain plane "liking to bounce", I would recommend getting the best flyer at your club to land the plane once and watch carefully. My guess is that you'll see a glide path that is absolutely constant once the landing is set up, a touch down right in front of you, the wheels just kiss the ground and no bounce. Actually, I'm still not sure how they do that. But it's amazing the faults we ascribe to our planes that disappear with a great pilot.

One sentence in Gordon's post stands out for me: "It's just practice."

MikeMc

Why is landing an RC plane NOTHING like full scale? I have 24 hours in a C150 and soloed (ran out of money. so sad.) and never once did the instructor say, use the rudder only to stay linded up. It was always coordinated unless it was a crosswind slip. We got knocked to the side from a crosswind gust several times just before touchdown and my instructor whipped the yoke (aileron) all the way to the stop to get us back over the runway and we never stalled, crashed and died. Unless slipping for a crosswind landing it was always ball in the center... always always always. Rudder only won't keep the ball in the center. What's the deal?

wldcwbypilot

Gentlemen, real planes always use rudder to fly coordinated turns, slips, and keeping the plane level, etc. The pilot learning to use rudder will have less problems than those who don't, as you upscale into biiger planes you will have to use more rudder to make smooth turns and roll outs while flying. Landing try learning the military approach which is a descending circle pattern, this pattern keeps the plane at a constant speed. While going thru the circle pattern reduce your throttle when you roll flat over the thresh hold you should be at 1 or 2 clicks above low idle. Hold an increasing amount of up elevator until you have made contact with the ground.

Will

Jumpnjoe

Thanks for everyone's advice. I realize it's me making it bounce and not the plane itself. Its' just that I've had 4 instructors fly my plane, and 3 out of the 4 bounced it 99% of the landings, so I tend to believe this is a harder "trainer" plane to set down without bouncing than maybe some others. I definitely have some things to practice now!

jcflysrc

My Feedback: (50)

Exactly...and get used to using your rudder. It will make your turns so much smoother, and your approach much straighter. AND when using it becomes second nature to you, you will no doubt enjoy, and be better equipped to fly all types of "scale" aircraft. It sounds like you are on the right track...good luck!

forestroke

I think Bax has a great peice of advice... when I'm not too lazy, I also trim my plane for landings... normally for my planes I just land... but there's one plane that just loves to come in hot and for that plane I ALWAYS trim while I'm up high... otherwise I have to do 2-3 passes before I have just the right point of touchdown so I don't plow into the concrete lip of the runway (deserted parking lot)

Trimming for landing can make landings much less of a headache especially if you have a short runway or a plane that is noseheavy... However, the counterpoint is that should the engine stall, the glide path will be way too short...

Jumpnjoe

Well guys, as soon as I got off work I went to the field and flew 4 tanks of nitro. 2 of the tanks just touch and goes. The other 2 I did low fly-bys about 10 off the runway, straight over to see how my plane glides.

Thanks Bax, I trimmed for landing and it worked perfectly. My turns with the rudder and ailerons mixed made smooth, flat turns. They looked beautiful. Then I can idling in for landing and just kissed the runway by way of down elevator (ever so slight). The last 6-7 didn't even bounce!!! And I stopped them within 5 ft of me. Now I know what they mean by greased it in! Now I UNDERSTAND!

I want to thank everyone for their advise. It worked!!!

russellk

Having been through all this, my landings only really got nice once I stopped listening to all the talk about approach angles and glide paths and concentrated on riding the elevator to achieve that "greased in" landing. My trainer had a very low stall speed, so if I landed remotely hot, or tried to flare, the plane would "baloon" which would inevitably lead to a stalled landing as I tried to get it down before I ran out of strip.

These days, I drop the throttle to idle before the last turn, then aim the plane down such that it's heading for the start of the strip. When I get to about 4ft off the deck, I start to level progressively, but still let the plane drop, within about 6" I start to flare, but again, veeery gently so that the plane is still dropping - too much and the the aircraft will balloon. In time you realise that forward speed isn't really an issue, provided you ride the elevator carefully. With the engine at idle, as soon as the wheels touch the ground the plane will slow up very quickly.

siclick33

As far as I understand there are two ways of lining up your approach for crosswind landing.

The first is the 'Wing Down' method. This is involves pointing the aircraft on the runway heading with the rudder and 'dipping' the into wind wing down. Keeping the wings level is no good as the aircraft will get blown downwind. This has two consequences, the aircraft is cross controlled on the approach and the into wind mainwheel will touchdown first (Provided the cross controlling is maintained during the flare).

The second method is the 'crab' method. This involves using co-ordinated rudder and aileron to track down the runway centreline. This will result in the model pointing slightly into the crosswind. To get the wheels to point down the runway involves a carefully timed 'push' with the rudder to line to the aircraft up with the runway, with a little opposite aileron to keep the wings level. The timing of this is critical (and occurs during the flare). Too early and the aircraft will drift downwind and risk damaging the undercarriage. Too late and the aircraft will land sideways anyway and will still risk damaging the undercarriage.

I personally, naturally, tend to use the first method.

If you have no crosswind then just coordinate rudder and aileron throughout.

With regarding the actual touchdown, I agree with the other posts. I start the flare very gently at about 3 feet or so. I allow the model to descend to a couple of inches. With a trainer I would aim to keep 2 inches off the ground forever. Eventually the model will not be able to keep airborne and will settle on the ground. If it stalls then no worries (providing that you are no more than two inches) in fact this will be the slowest possible landing speed. After you get some experience of just how slowly your model will fly then you can set it down just before it stalls. Be wary of more high performance models, some need to be flown at speed all the way to touchdown. But I think this method would be ideal for your nexstar.

Also, see if it is possible to lower the idle of your engine. It may help to slow ypu down on the approach. Don't lower it so much that you sacrifice reliability though.

Hope this helps!