kukarzev

Guys,

how bad SIMs really are compared to a live instructor? I fully understand, that an experienced instructor is probably them best you can get in order to learn to fly. However, simulators exist and are becoming popular, but they are here only for the last few years, if I understand correctly. May SIMs be a good substitute for instructors, despite the majority of RC community thinks otherwise, especially older members?

My point here is that a balsa plane, a club and a live instructor always were a conventional way for a beginner to learn RC flying. As we can see in the "age thread", the majority of the RC community are 26+ years older. (I'm a beginner myself and I am 26 too.) People are used to this way of learning and tell younger people to proceed in the same way. But now we have computer simulators and SPADs, that are cheap, sturdy and fast to build compared to traditional fragile balsa planes. It seems to me that if you thoughtfully and patiently practice on a sim, and then gradually come to flying SPADs, it can be as effective as learning with an instructor. It may be slower, but gives more satisfaction, since you do all on your own. It doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't join a club. It's just an alternative way to learn.

So, what do you think? Is it possible, or SIMs are completely inadequate, so it is impossible to fly a real plane by yourself, even barely, no matter how well you do it on the sim?

jcflysrc

My Feedback: (50)

A sim can teach you SOME tings...but there is no substitute for learning from some one elses experience. You can learn how to move your sticks, and learn about control reversal and when it applies...but you can't learn the proper way to set up your plane on a simulator. That comes from "real world" experience. The perspective on your computer screen doesn't allow you to really "see" your plane as it will appear in reality.

I say as others surely will too...get an instructor...it will make the learning curve a lot sharper, and your "investment" a lot smaller in the long run, due to the money you will save on "crunched balsa".

Believe it!

Sims on the other hand can sure keep the old thumbs in tune when you run into down time (a result of "crunched balsa").

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

A simulator isn't a substitute for an instructor, just as an instructor isn't a substitute for a simulator. They serve different purposes, even though there is a small bit of overlap.

The purpose of a sim isn't to teach you about RC. It's to allow you to practice twiddling the sticks in the manner that results in the model doing what you want it to do, and that's it. The sim allows you to do this as often as you like, and whenever you like.

The purpose of an instructor isn't to allow you to practice constantly. His role is to put you on the path to success, which means more than just flying. RC involves far more than merely twiddling sticks. If you've never been exposed to it, things such as control throw, engine operation, and the culture won't immediately come to mind.

Ever play a fishing sim on the computer? It can teach you all kinds of nifty ideas as to how and where to fish, but it can't teach you to tie a knot, cast, land a fish, or to clean a fish. That may seem simplistic, but there's a grain of undeniable truth there. It's no different than RC.

It's entirely possible to learn by yourself. It takes many long hours of preparation, study, and thought. I'm self-taught, and was quite successful in teaching myself. What were the key elements for me? A lifetime interest in aviation, a solid understanding of the theory of flight, countless hours as a child building and flying free-flight models, experience with RC cars, and knowledge gained from control-line. How well prepared are you? Spads may be cheap, but engines and flight packs are not. Depending upon how you crash, those are quite easily damaged.

Satisfaction lies in success, not in the method you use to achieve it.

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

The problem with a sim is that it won't see things like, how you're approach to the runway is too fast, or too slow, or how you need to use right (or left) rudder to keep it centered on the runway in a crosswind. And it certainly won't explain how and why we do those things.

A sim won't tell you how to do a stall turn, or to add down elevator in a slow roll to keep the plane from diving for the ground. Sure, you might eventually figure it out, but you're more likely to try and do the roll faster to keep it from diving. In the long run you'll end up learning bad habits, and never really learn the right way to control your plane.

It will likely keep you from destroying 3 or 4 planes in the learning process, you may only destroy 1 or 2.

A sim will not show you how to set up your servos, control horns and clevises, or how to tune or break in an engine, or keep your fingers out of the prop. It won't explain how to repair crash damage, or easier ways to cover, or install components.

I could go on, but you get the idea.
Dennis-

wings

Do you have a sim DB?

I agree that learning with an instruction on a real life plane is probably better.

I recently got real flight and it seems pretty realistic to me. I don't think it tells you how to do all those things you stated, but it allows you to figure it out yourself without tearing anything up.

I'm not diasagreeing with you about the instructor, but don't cut the sim short either. If you havn't tried one out you should. I was sure impressed at the realisticness off it. And there is actually a virtual instructor that goes through the basics and even shows the stick movements.

canmann

I aggree that it's no substitue for an instructor and real life
But you can set RealFlight for a lot of variables (wind speed and direction just to name a few).
And if it cuts my losses from 3 or 4 plane to 1 or 2 I think I just covered the cost.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

It's realistic in some respects, but it fails miserably when it comes to spins. I've yet to be able to get it to spin as it should. How's a person supposed to know how to get out of a spin (let alone how they can inadvertently happen) if the sim won't spin? As for virtual instructors, there have been VHS tapes doing that for decades.

wings

How many beginners need to be doing spins before they solo?

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

All of them should be comfortable with how to get out of a spin before they solo.

wings

Maybe your right, I could never get my trainer to spin though.

FHHuber

A sim simply lets you keep making the ame mistake and never tells you WHY you crashed. Some of them show the wreckage, some let you review the last few secoinds of the flgiht (or even the whole flight)... but none tell the reason you lost it.

The sim can be helpful in some way... but it just can't replace an intructor's input about what is going on.

aimmaintenance

I have the computer program (NASCAR 2003)
I can beat the crap outta most of the drivers.
Should I be in a real race?

Seriously though. I love SIMS. I have one that I use occasionally and I think it helps alot.
As MIKEL states it's great for twidling sticks etc. It's easy to try new stuff out and find out if your capable of handling it. It's also great fun to push the limits without the worry of crashing and I believe that makes us better pilots. My point here is.
AT LEAST SPEND ONE AFTERNOON WITH A REAL PERSON THAT IS KNOWLEDGABLE IN THE HOBBY!!!!!!!!!
My reasons for this are endless /engine tuning/battery checks/control setups/linkage security/adequate protective foam/wing banding etc etc etc/
If nothing else an experienced helper can educate you on the proper (after crash beverage)

Also if you notice I didn't say "INSTRUCTER" many new guys think an instructer needs to be this AMA certified, NASA trained, FBI cleared, FAA approved, AA convert, that has been drillin holes in the sky since Jesus left his last footprint. NOPE!!!!!
Ask around a little and I'm sure you can find somebody (even if they have only gotten in one season of flyin) that'll give ya a couple hours of their divine intelligence... (It'll help a bunch)
Add that to your SIM time and you'll be flyin!

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Hey, I'm an instructor at the field, and I use a sim. Any time I'm learning a new maneuver, I try it on the sim first, and it always helps. I learned rolling circles first on the sim, and then at the field. Gave me a lot of confidence.

I always suggest an RC flight simulator to my students, in addition to getting stick time at the field.

Can you solo after you learn on a Sim? Ask after you've mastered landing with the simulator.

Welcome aboard!
Dave Olson

randy41

How about you tell us. Heres what you do.
Buy a sim and use it for 6 hours and then get
that pretty plane out and go fly it and tell us what happens.

After that episode get a instructor and fly with him for
6 hours with another pretty plane and tell us what happened.

jcflysrc

My Feedback: (50)

...you mean they DON'T?

FHHuber

There is no "official" RC flight instructor certification program in place for the AMA. Some clubs have instructor certification programs (and some say... you soloed... now you can instruct others. Thankfully, not many who have that little experience try to give lessons.)

Some Club's instructor programs are VERY detailed, and you can be certain you will get a good instructor at those clubs.

Some programs are fairly simple, and just about anyone that passes the better club's solo certificate program could pass some of the lesser instructor's programs. (and you'd still have a passable instructor... because the harder solo programs are REALLY detailed.)

But... no matter what training the instructor recieved... he learned one thiing (hopefully) and that is how to trim out a new airplane. (which the sim just can't teach.)

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

Wings,
Yes I have flight simulators. I had FMS but sold the interface (and a 4 channel TX) to a new guy in the club, and have had Real Flight for a few years.

Real Flight is the best sim I've used. (I've tried Dave Brown's and Aero Fly sims at trade shows.) But there are a number of things that just aren't realistic in Real Flight, or any of the others.

Spins and stalls are not realistic in Real Flight. I can fly a number of aerobatic planes with nasty stall characteristics nose high down to a walking speed and still prevent them from badly dropping a wing. I can just about hover the RF Super Sportster in windless conditions. Believe me, it's not possible with the real SS.

Taking off with a Cub in RF is much easier than the real thing (in my opinion anyway).

What I'm saying is, yes Sims are a great way to shorten the learning curve, that's been proven to me. But there are a number of things that the sim just can't teach you, or that they will teach you wrong. []
Dennis-

bhole74

I feel there is no substitute for an instructor. I'm not sure if the sim even shortens the leaning curve, it may just be the person learning. Some pick it up very quickly while others never seem to get it. I personally can't get myself to buy a sim for $200, I would rather spend that kind of money on a couple of good kits and enjoy them for years to come. A sim would be nice to have during the times when weather just doesn't permit flying, but that's when kits seem to keep me occupied.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

I've only been doing it since Pontius was a Pilot.

hgiles

My Feedback: (4)

I would be interested in seeing how easy it is to acquire each of the 'six hours'...

hookedonrc

A couple of things I thought of when reading this post. My instructor has become a good friend, and has helped me even beyond my training days. So I get more value out of the whole deal anyway. Another thing, I have been trying to get my simulator to help me do some work on repairs and building. To date, all I can get it to do is sit there. In my opinion, both an instructor and a sim serve their designated purposes. I wouldn't want to have one without the other. I have spent many bad weather days, just flying on the sim for practice so when I go to the field, my thumbs know instinctively what they should be doing.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I personally like the sim. It teaches the newbie and the oldie a lot of things, keeps him sharp and you can practice a new maneuver on it before trying it on the real plane. I use it a ton to learn new stuff on my heli.

They DO NOT replace an instructor though. A sim can not teach you how to tune the engine, how to start the engine, how to break it in, how to make sure the plane it built right, or the controls are going the propper direction. The sim can't help you fix problems you WILL encounter, or how to do many many other things.

Yes, you can probably learn on a sim and then go out and get lucky and have a successfull flight, but there is so much information that you need that a sim can't give you that an instructor is a really good idea. Go ask your sim how to fix your messed up covering, or how to deal with torque on take off or some of the other newbie questions.

Sure sims are a good tool, but that is what they are. A learning tool. Use them, and an instructor and you will be a pretty good flyer in a shorter time. Do it on your own and you have to re-invent all the knowledge you would have otherwise learned from someone who has been there.

wings

If you have never flown before, You would probaby crash in both cases if you soloed.

Thing is, you can use the sim as many hours as you want, night or day, rain or shine at your convenience.

If stick time with an instructor was as easy to come by as sitting down at your pc, there would be no such thing as simulators.


Wings

canmann

I wouldn't think of flying for the first time without an instructor
But I also wouldn't expect just to go to the field without being prepaired.
I read the books, mags, look on sites like this one for info and go over my plane trying to learn all I can
I spend time at the LHS and discuss things with other flyers I know
In the mean time the sim does offer a chance to get familiar with the radio and how a plane will be effected by various conditions.
I don't expect to know everything when before I do solo but I will understand a lot more faster.

randy41

WINGS: MY POINT WAS you will learn more from 6 hrs with a instructor
than you will with countless hrs with a sim. Like i said in my post and i will
state it again by the time you or any one else thinks that you are ready
to fly after using a sim I could have you flying on your own in a fraction
of the time by lessons. Now the question was SIMS VRS INSTRUCTOR. That says
nothing about not being able to get a hold of a instructor. It is very,very,very
unlikely that a person will crash while flying with instructor weather its your
first flight or you 50th flight with the instructor. Yes in a lot of case a instructor
is just as easy to get a hold of as the sim on your pc. SIMS ARE GOOD TO SCR*W
AROUND WITH but thats about there limit may help on cordnation a little.
Yes i do have real flight and no i dont train with it cause i dont need to. I also
dont recommend it as a training device. Now what i do recomeend is save
your time and money that you will spend on a sim and buy a plane and get with
an instructor if posiable. I think it should be reversed learn to fly with a instructor
first and than get a sim and use it for what its worth(Playing with).