Dano13

While I have not read every single response in this thread, my observations have been that the difference between ARF and RTF is that RTF comes with engine and radio systems installed. While I have no experience with the product in question, I would be willing to bet that there is also some type of disclaimer on the box that says "Some assembly required". If it's not there, you have a valid complaint. And as mentioned, you DO have to charge the batteries for 12 or more hours just to get started. As for adjustments, these should ALWAYS be checked on any aircraft. RTF, ARF, kit...etc.

I DO agree, many of the marketing ploys are out of line, and that many (but not all) RTF are no more than ARF with engine and radio installed. The adjustments still need to be made.

In my book, RTF simply means you don't have to buy anything extra to get the plane ready for flight.

just my .02 again

dano13

hookedonrc

In all fairness, it never said how well or how long it would fly after 20 minutes...lol BTW: I have had to reshrink the covering on every one of my planes. It is just part of the process as it has been indicated. I am finding that maintenance in one form or another is part of this hobby. I had an Avistar as my trainer, and it was one of my favorite planes. Those of us who build ARF's generally do a once over on everything and ensure that the plane's construction is what we expect it to be. As a standard process, I check the firewall, the area where the wing dowels enter the fuse, the tail area for good solid installation, and I check every glued joint for strength. It just comes with the territory. As it has been said, build one from the ground up and you will appreciate how little you really have to do to get into the air. For example, I have been building a Something Extra for over a year now. You can find posts here where some have done it in as little as a week. Well, what can I say, I am a slooooow builder, but I am installing the last of the radio equipment and should be ready to maiden this weekend. Oh...and I still have to go over a couple of spots with the heat gun to tighten the covering.

cde0214

Mike, I wouldn't be too apologetic about being critical. You spent your hard earned dollar on this plane it should be up to your expectations(within reason). I think if more people will be critical like that, the quality of ARFs & RTFs will only get better. As for 232CAP, I'm still wondering how it could take 60 hours to assemble an ARF, I built and covered my first plane in less time than that.

5_spot

My Feedback: (1)

I ordered my Alpha 60 RTF,when i got it i opened the box,looked at all the parts to make sure they were in the box,glanced at the instructions and put it together in less than 45 minutes.
HOWEVER,it took 24 hours to charge the tx and rx batteries which wasn't a problem for me.
Good luck

fasterthanlife

My Feedback: (2)

ok umm...
This is the funniest thing I Have ever read. I mean yall are typing these long posts about whos right whos wrong why they did this or that. I mean its a trainer it'll be banged up by the time your through with it. So quit worrying about what the box said. You can't always beleive money driven people. Nothing in Life is free, you pay for what you get. So Lets just and Go fly.


Keem em flyin

rc-sport

My Feedback: (12)

My Avistar was the first plane I ever even looked at and I had it ready in about 1 hour.

jalusa

I have this same problem with making pancakes... they say just add water. They forget to mention that I have to stir the mix, pour on skillet, flip, take off, butter, syrup... Are the instructions on the box of mix a lie, or just a clever marketing ploy?

Swager

My Feedback: (1)

My Superstar has some wrinkles. I put a heat gun to them and most of them went away.

The Superstar ARF is one sturdy plane. I have sort of abused it but it just keeps going and flying well. It brushes off all the stupid mistakes I make and comes back for more. I am extrememly happy with the Superstar for my first plane. Great trainer.

I have seen many Avistars at our field and I was always impressed by their look, and performance. I understand after their owners get used to them, they modify them to create a more agressive airframe for their second plane.

wings

Hey Mike,

This thread has turned into a classic newbie bashing thread and its a shame.

I agree with all the stuff about the monokote being wrinkled. All that was said is true. I just bought a spacewalker a while back that was severely wrinkled. Luckily I have built a kit and have the heat gun and iron to correct it. But part of the reason for buying an ARF of RTF is to not have to purchase all those tools. I would have been bummed out flying a wrinkled plane around if I had not already had the equipment. I probably would have burned a hole through it trying to heat it with a clothing iron.

Funny part is my LT 40 ARF didn't have a singe wrinkle. My spacewalker had the covering practically hanging off of it. So I know some are better quality than others. It can be controlled to a degree.


I find it amusing that cap states that he knows your a newbie about a 100 times, lol. Well, duh? You have a trainer and you are asking questions about it in the BEGINNERS forum. He caught on pretty quick that you were new. Obviously he's proud of that obersvation he stated it a 100 times.


I also agree that you get what you pay for, but in American there are laws against false advertisement. The Trade Commision. Doesn't matter if you pay 25 cents for it, if they advertise it as something it is not, its illegal.

You also stated several times that you weren't bashing the plane. You just didn't agree with what was advertised on the box. What does you being a newbie have to do with getting what was advertised? What does you being a newbie have to do with the holes being in the wrong place?

You were just making a point and everyone jumps your case.

I personally don't think its you with the attitude. Its the closed minded people that think just because they are more experienced their opinion is absolutely correct and if a newbie don't agree then he must be ignorant and won't compromise.

Don't sweat it Mike. Just remember this thread. Hopefully you will have a wamer welcome for newbies when you are more experienced and are helping people.


Wings

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

"However, that does not change the fact that words "just add fuel and fly" are printed on the box of this product. "

And was the box big enough so that you also assumed that the wings and tail surfaces were already attached? Personally, I think you're splitting hairs here (or trolling).

Almost Ready to Fly is a much bigger misnomer in my opinion than RTF. RTF's seldom take much more than an hour to screw the pieces together and get it ready to fly. Wrinkled Monocote won't affect the flight characteristics, so that doesn't even count.

You could also likely trim out the "miss-set" control linkages, and I'm sure that the setting of the linkages varies from plane to plane depending on which "family" assembled it.

I regularly advize people to expect a couple of hours to get a RTF ready, and at least 20 to 40 for an ARF first time out. A kit? At least 150 to 250 depending on your abilities with tools. A couple hours compared to the options sounds like RTF to me.
Dennis-

John Murdoch

My Feedback: (11)

Good Luck Mike....

Jeepindog

Well, good luck with your new plane. I hope you enjoy it immensely and have many successful flights. I suggest you give kit-building a try. It's a great way to really get into this hobby, and watching something that YOU built from a box of wood is truly enjoyable. Plus it won't look like every other plane in the pit area!

Lachlan McLean

bentgear

If Hobbico, Great Pains, Tower etc. could sell as many RTF Avistars as Traxxas sells monster trucks you would be able to buy them a lot cheaper and I bet your fit and finish problems would be reduced. If you are this upset over the Avistar, just wait, you ain't seen nothin yet.........

Ed M.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

If it is out in the sun down here the covering will get wrinkled. I can't believe that someone is complaining about a plane that takes a few hours to get ready to fly.

BTW, you forgot to complain about the battery charging times. How can they call it RTF when you have to charge batteries for it??? Don't forget the time it takes to fuel it up.

Golfer6464

I can empathize somewhat Mike. My first plane, different make/model arrived yesterday and is a RTF. The box specifically says 15 minutes from box to field. Problem I ran in to was some pre-drilled holes were off to the point they'll have to be redrilled. No biggie and the rest of the assembly looks like it lines up. But, even if everything did line up perfectly and I assembled and disassembled it 20 times to where I could do it with a blindfold, I still wouldn't make that 15 minutes. Actually I'm kind of glad for that and have been taking the time to look at everything to see where it's located, how it works and such. Not being an expert in anyway, I am pleased overall with the layout (seems logical) and the craftsmanship. One comment I've frequently read about in the short time I've been here is covering being wrinkled, fortunately for me mine didn't have a wrinkle in it, just one small what I would call bubble up spot I'm not even going to worry about. It looks sharp and know when I take it down to the field the experienced pilots are going to know I didn't do the covering job.

I guess the point Mike was trying to make and I'll have to echo it is a standard for the industry to have so that new pilots don't get a bad taste in their mouths right out of the starting blocks. New pilots who choose to go the RTF route did it for a reason, mine was that I wanted something that got off the ground in a short period of time since the flying season is upon us. Many choose the RTF route due too limited experience in crafting such items or they just understand they are not good at that kind of stuff at all. Having experience in building somewhat sophisticated models as a kid and working as a machinist at one point in my life I know that not everyone can pull off something like building a kit from scratch. It does take patience, finesse, hand-eye coordination and a host of other traits to competently assemble something like that and actually make it fly. Heck, the patience requirement probably eliminates half the world's population right out of the chute.

With ARF there is a reasonable expectation that some actual craftsmanship and tools will be needed to get it together if someone new does any kind of homework on what they are getting in to. RTF should stand for something and it would be nice if the industry came together to set a minimum standard. My plane says no tools required for assembly and if the holes that were off had been drilled correctly they would be right. Personally, making it standard for RTF's to be like that would go a long way in giving the new pilot who may be crafting challenged the confidence to make his/her purchase and not get a surprise out of the box.

Good luck Mike and enjoy your plane.

wings

Actually he should have complained. If it is advertised as "Ready to fly in just 20 minutes!" and it takes 24 hours to charge the batteries, that alone is false advertisement.

As I have built a kit and have had two ARF's I am well aware of the difference. Sure, 5 hours is nothing! Heck of a lot quicker than an ARF and massively quicker than a kit. But... The box says 20mins! FALSE ADVERTISEMENT!

raideron

My Feedback: (1)

Hi all,

Yes the times sure have changed!!! I can understand Wrinkles in the covering
but some of the other things most of us have run into on ARF and RTF's really
should not be... We all need to contact and advise them of their problem, But
it's like voting... Most will not ... We know what would happen if we all did,,,,,
prices would go up, but we'd get a better product...

Flightfreak777

Hey people
All i have to say is try building an kit! lol my first one is taking me a year to build so far and not close to finishing yet. id be totally satisfied it i had a plane in 5 hours... hell 20 hours is great! lol, yes the box may lie but hey, im sure if u made money cause it had a few extra words on it ud go for it yes? called false advertising and its everwhere so... oh well lol anywho i have a nexstar and the plane is literally RTF. charge fuel and fly done. oh with the exception of screwing in the wing and rudder.... what 10 minutes? i was impressed

~Matt

wings

This may sound rediculous. But if you got the right lawyer you could have sure over that. It is false advertisement. It is punishable by law.

I am sure nobody is going to sue. The fact is, you could.

Mike in DC

Mike, have you contacted Hobbico yet? This is where the Internet fails us, I think. In the old days, if you had a problem with a company, you told them so, usually with a written letter on paper. Perhaps they blew you off, but then you voted with your dollars for the next purchase. Now, you post something on a forum, a lot of hot air moves around, but nothing happens. I guess venting makes folks feel better, but for me, I love getting a letter from a company explaining why they did what they did.

I'll never forget the email I got from a Great Planes V.P. in response to a letter I sent them about letting AnnMarie Cross go. The fact that he took the time to explain his position in a thoughtful way was incredible. I disagreed with him, but developed great respect for the company.

jrpnde

Advertising for anything is usually frustrating to the consumer. If I could buy a Whopper at Burger King that even looked like the ones on the TV commercials......I'd probably eat one every day.

Swager

My Feedback: (1)

Yea Mike. Get this RTF in the air and learn with it. Then go buy a kit and start building. My superstar is a RTF but I have a 4 Star 40 kit that I am building right now. It is atually alot of fun. I have a BTE Venture 60 and a SIG Someting Extra in the waits! Im getting ready to start covering that 4 Star!!!

WOOOOOOHoooooooooo!!

I hate covering!! NO actually You learn alot when you cover your first plane. I did a PT 20 about 2 months ago. Oh joy!!

Yub, yub, cmdr!

The fact is, all RTF and ARF plane boxes have nanoscopic print that says

notRTF

For example, my Tiger II ARF said that too!

I also groused about the misdrilled holes, wrinkled covering, missing hardware, wrong hardware, and malformed hardware.

Also, the ARF said 20 hours for completion... took me five months, each month working 20 hours... I think it was worth it.

I'm a newbie also, and I don't want to bash you, but

Traxxas sells so much easier than any RC plane... the fact that Traxxas can make so many "high quality" (my rear) MTs is because demand is higher and so is the profit, therefore increasing the amount of $$$ that they can spend buying equipment and paying for better workers.

(uum, how can traxxas be high quality? My friend's nitro stampede is six months old and seldom used, but he has trashed (to my knowledge) 1. tuned pipe 2. front a-arms 3. clutch bell 4. steering servo 5. crap turnbuckles 6. pullstart 7. front shock tower (twice) He's spent so much money fixing the vehicle, too. It doesn't even come with a full set of BB's)

That HPI pro is a fairly expensive car. Also you have to take into consideration that graphite is easily made, easily filled. Plastic, aluminum, titanium, and steel are moldable, and the metals can be CNC machined. You can't do that with balsa and ply.

ICE_MAN

Mike,
I got a superstar ARF for x-mas.. It took me only 14 hours to complete. The parts quality was excellent and I built it per instructions. Very easy assembly and I had the airframe put all together with engine installed in about 2 hours. I know what you mean by it taking time to set throws and Cg and such But I honestly believe you got a bad one. My buddy got a superstar RTF <not mk II> and had it assembled and on the charger within 40 minutes time. I'm not trying to bash you or anything so please take no offense. I just honesly believe that you got a bad one for some strange reason..... You will be pleased with the flight of that aircraft as it's a real joy to fly..

My .02
Cody

Broken

I just read this whole thread. I want my twenty-minutes back...!



P.S. I hope the avistar flew well- In the end it's still a dam good trainer.