I've been flying for about 3 months now, and can do the sportsman patter as well as inverted flight fairly well. My only plane so far is a Hangar9 Arrow. It's a great trainer. Now I'm trying to find out how exactly do I execute snap rolls and spins, i.e. what do I do with the sticks, and does anybody know if those maneuvers be done with the Arrow?

Also, I'm looking at getting my first low wing acrobatic trainer. Any suggestions?

Sig Somethin' Extra?

The Goldberg Tiger 2 is a very good second plane. I had one that flew very well until a very gusty wind did it in on final. I'm building one now and it should do very well also. The only thing I have noticed with the new kit is the thinness of the wood. My other one was built about five years ago and I remembered it to have had much better quality wood. O well this one should be lighter. I guess the ARF will be just as good but I prefer kits.

UCD3D .46

You can do snaps with most trainers if you have them set up correctly. The throws must be adequate - IE more than the minimum the instructions list. So up your throws IF your confident flying that way. You may/may not have to move the CG rearward as well as most trainer types are nose heavy.

Fly straight and level (2-3 mistakes high - snaps are violent and you can get turned around QUICK) at about 3/4 throtle.
Give full up elevator, full aileron, and full rudder - all in the same direction which will make a positive snap. It may not look pretty but you can get some decent snaps out of a trainer type if you work at it. I wouldn't suggest trying negative snaps at first.

Pitfalls...your plane will over-rotate or under-rotate meaning your going 3/4 throttle straight up or worse straight down so practice up high.

Remember snaps are very violent manavuers and cause lots of stresses on a plane - if you use rubber bands on a plane put more than usual or you'll hear the whap whap of the winging banging on the fuse. Also a snap is a high speed stall where you stall one wing while traveling at speed.

Spins - make sure your comfortable with stalls first. After you do stalls - idle down holding more and more up elevator until it drops the nose - that's a stall..

Now when it stalls keep holding up elevator and throw the rudder and aileron over to the same side - all the way over. The plane should point down and spin around one wing tip with no forward speed - or something close thereof.

To recover add throttle and let off the aileron rudder or "neutralize" the sticks including the elevator - when you pick up speed pull up slowly to start flying level again.

Practice WAY WAY high - spins will loose altitude FAST.

Snaps are fun ... just make sure you are high in case you loose your orientation. Also the best is NOT to do a level flight snap in the beginning, climb at about 35* to 45* that will get you more accustomed to the way the plane handles. Try different stick combinations and see what the plane does for each. If you can try not to use full throttle, snaps with full throttle look great but you can also loose orientation fast. I love slow snaps (little to no throttle) with my plane set up with a lot of throw.

You will need a plane with a short moment (short rear portion of the fuse) for nice snaps. Something like a Sukhoi etc.

There are two trainer aerobatic styles:
Pattern aerobatic --- Tower Hobbies Kaos 40 or Cermark Javelin II
3D aerobatic -- Sig Somethin Extra, H9 Twist and about a hundred similar.

For general low wing second plane, I'd recommend the Tiger II or 4 Star 40

Im surprised you can competantly fly through the sportsman pattern after only 3 months flying! Great Job!

If you want to learn pattern the UCD is not the plane to have, its is an aerobatic wonder and a really forgiving 2nd plane if you tone the rates down but it dont like to fly straight and level if ya know what I mean.. It will do all the blenders, harriers, spins, snaps, hover, torque roll and all that stuff you want to do but it just wont fly in a straight enough line to be even remotely competitive in pattern speaking from experience.

If you want to fly pattern then I would either go old school and get something like a 4 star 60. They arent real pretty but they have a long tail moment which allows them to draw straight lines or the Kaos also a good choice for starter pattern but you better be real sure you can really do what you say you can before you move up to either. If you are totally 100% competant and borderline bored with your trainer, trying to defy gravity and physics in a way that trainers arent designed then stay with the trainer. Symmetrical wing planes like the Kaos, and 4 Star are easy enough to fly IF you really have the feel of it. The Giant Planes Swallow is an EXCELLENT choice if you want to go up to a .91 size as is the Composite ARF Widebody 60 for its class, these are real starter pattern planes by modern standards. The KAOS and 4 Star are antiquated but good flying planes..

Mike

This will go against convention.
If you are interesting in Aerobatics (IMAC) I would recommend that you go with a 50cc class plane and engine. It will be a big investment but you will eliminate a lot of the intermediate cost which will get you up to the cost of the 50cc rig in a year or two.

Do you know of a spot on this site, or any other, that would spell out the moves, and how to perform them? I can't seem to find a single location that does that. I printed out the moves above, and now I have something else to practice and work on, but I would like to see more. Thanks.

This is a good start --> http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

I can get my LT-40 to snap and spin with elevator and rudder input only. No aileron required, which is a sign that it is a true snap IMO. The CG must be back near the limits suggested by Sig, and the throws must be high. To get my LT-40 to spin I have to enter a snap at about 1/4 throttle and hold in the elevator & rudder. The plane snaps, then falls over into a spin. After a couple of rotations it I can idle the engine and it will stay in the spin.

I imagine that an Arrow would be even easier to snap/spin than an LT-40, but the CG must be back, etc.

They are not the crisp snaps one gets from a aerobatic ship, however.

I had a UCD, but found that it really didn't do great snaps. It has a very thick constant chord wing, unlike a pattern plane that typically has a thinner airfoil and a tapered wing - more suitable to performing a clean snap.

The Great Planes's Venus is one to consider if you are looking for an ARF.

I've tried and can't get a good spin from a Goldber Eagle or a Tower Hobbies Trainer 40. I have to add aileron to make it rotate and I think what I get is more like a diving spiral than a proper spin. I have heard that trainers in general won't spin. The LT40 may be the exception.

I've done full scale spins in Citabrias and Cessnas and in comparison to models they are entered easily and are well defined (no question of whether it is a spin or not). Somehow models aren't the same. Maybe some things don't scale?

To get trainer types to spin decently you need substantial elevator & rudder throw -- quite a bit more than the manufacturers recommended throws. Having the C-of-G aft of the recommended max also helps a great deal. It can be done however, & it is a ton of fun flying a trainer like a sport plane.

I was spurned on by this thread and went out today and did my first spins and snaps with my Avistar. I have the throws set pretty high. I am really happy tonight! They are a blast.

Thanks for all your input.

I'm looking forward to trying out the suggestions and will get out to the flying field this weekend for some snap rolls and spins.

Most if not all trainer type aircraft are designed for inherent stability. This design criteria makes them somewhat unsuitable for your stated intentions. Yes, they will roll, spin and fly inverted but they lack in performing more advance aerobatics. Choose a model that is called an advanced trainer. What you normally find in this aircraft is a semisymeterical wing airfoil and increased surface control area on airlerons, rudder and elevator flight controls.
The next step is to find an experienced R/C pilot who can instruct you in performing these manuvers. Last but not least is finding the time to practise.

I found this on accident....
http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/...vers/index.htm

I found this site a while back. [link=http://Manuever Cards]http://members.cox.net/moorman1/maneuver.htm[/link]

Trainer types can be fairly easily modified to do virtually any aerobatics, except the 3-D stuff (even that is possible with serious mods). The more that you want from them, the more work/mods it takes & the more skill it takes, but the flat-bottomed wing is not a serious impediment.

take out or lower the diehedral
extend the rudder

the avistar dose not have a flat bottom air foil.
it'll snap and spin easy without modifications
i had a hard time trying to get it to go flat. wiegth to the tail might had help...
recovering from a spin was a bit freakie...leave plenty of altitude

here sum'in i found out too late..
don't snap roll on a high speed dive or a dive on a high wing plane.
especially an arf
controling a missle was cool thou.

if you have an arf..you might consider adding fiberglass to the wing joint.
my avistar wing joint piece broke away from the spar an rip thur the sheeting,
i put over 50 flights snaping and spining...stressing the crap out of the wing.
being a noobie at the time...of course the throttle was stuck on high all the time.
a .46 and a high speed prop was another rookie mistake, but it pulled it to the moon !

The Arrow trainer that I'm using, does have a semi-symmetrical wing and is sold as an "acrobatic" trainer.

It does fly very well for a high-wing trainer.

Your arrow should do those maneuvers pretty good for a trainer
type model, My Avistar worked OK.. Once you get the hang of
it.. If your control throws are not maxed out start increasing
them. Then slowly start moving your C.G. towards the back
which will make it do the snaps etc. a lot cleaner.. BUT be
very careful... You know the saying about nose/tail heavy
planes.. And you'll get to re-learn Super light touches on the
sticks for landing... As said above, Snaps etc. are violent
maneuvers and puts alot of stress on your plane, insure your
plane is as ready as it can be on each flight you practice this
and try not to do them too many times with WOT...

Try this site http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/...vers/index.htm