Does anyone have any tips on how I can line up landings better? Or is it just a simple matter of practice. I tend to make my final turn to early. Thanks

Mo Lester

(just kidding, that's not my real name.)

Find landmarks for where to make the turns. The same landmarks will work with almost every airplane you fly at that field. At our field, approaching from the north there's a V formed between two trees. Just lining up in the V is perfect.

The turn onto final... you practically aim the nose of the plane at yourself. That final touch of rudder to line up with the runway will be easy if its comming straight for you an about 100 to 200 yards out.

I had a big problem with always landing 100 ft or more out beyond the runway until someone told me to aim for myself.

I may as well add my two cents worth...

I was taught to make my turn on to final 'late'. Turning on to final is a bit of an optical illusion. By turning late, you THINK that you are going to overshoot the field and come in too close, but you don't.

As noted above, once you have your turn where you want it, pick a spot (a tree, barn, etc) that will serve as a landmark for future turns.

Of course, make your first few turns at high altitude to make sure that your turn gives you the lineup that you want. You might want to do all this practice when there aren't many folks flying, just for your own peace of mind.

Hope this helps,

Bob

Understanding aerodynamics made the difference in my landings 12 years ago. I've since obtained my full scale license and models and full scales use the same aerodynamics. This is what we do with full scales.

Use throttle to control the rate of descent. Engine power makes the plane go up - not elevator. That's critical. If your descending too fast add power and if your too high reduce power. When I started using power, my landings began to work for me.

Use elevator to control airspeed. That's critical. Up (back) elevator slows you down and down (forward) elevator increases airspeed. You may be trying to slow the rate of descent with elevator and slowing your plane to a stall. If that happens you need to nose the plane down to maintain airspeed and if you're too low add power. At all times keep air flowing over your wings.

Use the suggestions in the other replies to get lined up right, they're good suggestions. Model Airplane News April 1992 has a nice article by Bob Gilbert that reviews some of this stuff. If you want to contact me I'll email you copies of the articles I have.

[email protected]

Go stand in your pilot box and look to your left at the end of your runway. There is a near corner and a far corner, correct? Or left and right, if that is clearer. Make your turn onto final when the model visually intercepts the left (or nearer) corner of the runway. Lines you up on the center every time.

And go up to at least two mistakes of altitude and practice the above advice about controlling rate of descent with throttle . Set your pitch attitude with elevator and leave it alone! Control your rate of descent with throttle. If you are too low, add a bit of power. If you are too high, reduce throttle. Remember: throttle controls ALTITUDE and elevator controls SPEED!

Start learning to steer with rudder-it is more effective than aileron at low speeds. Plus, dropping an aileron at very low speed can induce a stall on that side. Many stall-spin crashes are a result of improper use of aileron on approaches. With a little practice, you'll look like a real hero, with many greased-on landings down the centerline. Go for it!

OK, you can't steer with the rudder -- not directly, literally, technically. BUT you can use the rudder to induce a plane to do the things that result in a turn... and that will feel just like steering for most people, especially for a new guy. And when a plane's going too slow to use your ailerons, it may be a good thing to do. When you have to tweak the heading or attitude of a 4-channel plane that's just above stall speed, a good healthy aileron input may just snap your plane right into the ground. (Granted, the original question was about turning onto final where ailerons should be used, but it's the "never, never" thing I wanted to clarify, not the final turn thing.)

We also want to line up straight on the runway as early as possible on final approach, but the wind does blow... and for anyone who thinks that the wind ever comes in from a uniform direction or at a uniform speed, a day at a weather station would be a real eye-opener. A plane on final may need directional inputs right up to touchdown, and for a 3-point landing that means right down to stall speed.

I agree that ailerons are the preferred way to steer (or maybe the ONLY way, technically, to steer), but the only reason we can credibly tell people not to steer a plane using the rudder is because they are indeed able to give a rudder command to directly or indirectly cause their plane change course or heading... and there are times when that's how it has to be done.

I'm new at this discussion room business, but following this discussion has been both informative and entertaining. Entertaining in following the line of everyone's opinion and point of view and informative in that its confirming my understanding of aerodynamics.

HarryC is emphatic about the dangers of trying to turn a plane with rudder with very good reason. I believe he's got the classic stall/spin accident on base to final in mind which in full scale is fatal most of the time. If you're not lining up right on base to final don't use rudder to correct the situation - go around! That's true both full scale and models.

Bigheavy really hits it on the head though. We're not talking about one control surface. Its a coordination of all the control surfaces. Turns need to be coordinated and there are so many variables involved. No one has mentioned the effect of elevator in a turn but its involved too. Some have maintained it is the main turn control surface. Its just a matter of the way one chooses to look at the many forces acting on the plane in a turn. Horizontal component of lift makes the plane turn, but to get that one must bank (roll) the plane with ailerons and use rudder to counteract adverse yaw. When that happens, vertical component of lift is reduced (because the plane is banked) and one must do something to increase that component to maintain altitude. Ususally that is done with a touch of back elevator to slightly increase angle of attack and total lift.

Its a marvel that humans can take this screaming machine moving through the air at breakneck speed and balance it (with all control surfaces) on a pinhead called the CG while navigating, talking with ATC, conversing with passengers or fighting other aircarft.

Very interesting discussion


Roodester

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your posts. Very informative and entertaining.
Duke

This just goes to show you how far a thread can go, and the turns it can take. This all started with the question:

"Does anyone have any tips on how I can line up landings better? Or is it just a simple matter of practice."

I took my Air force training at Randolph AFB Texas...
The "Tweet" was a piece of cake.....The T-38 was a different animal....If you got low and slow in it, You were close to death anyway....It was centerline thrust...and rudder wasn't a big player, but rudder on base to final was a no-no except to coordinate the turn if needed.
I agree with Harry,

The key words here are low and slow.
One should learn to use rudder, it is a lifesaver, and a necessary.....Practice is the word.
I always turn my base to final over my left shoulder.....It looks wrong....but it turns out right.
Doc
Note: If you see the tail of your a/c under the airplane...you are setting yourself up for trouble...The tail should always be on top on your final approach.

N1edm,
Questions spark the minds of many professionals.
The thread may skew the original thought.......This is what makes the forum interesting....How boring it would be just to answer the question at hand.
One response may entice another to ask another question.
Thats the name of ths game called RC.
Doc

Hi Doc,
Just a short note to say that I agree with you.

You said "Questions spark the minds of many professionals. The thread may skew the original thought.......This is what makes the forum interesting...."

I just found it amusing how far the conversation had gotten from the original question.

I was wondering how this would develop if everyone who was a part of this thread were in the same room, face to face, discussing it. The possibilities are endless.

N1edm,
You are so right!
We should get a convention going in Vegas or somewhere and have an open forum. (with an agenda of course)...and talk our heads off.
The listeners would benefit, and the talkers could stand on the soapbox
Regards,
Doc

I have a question for HarryC.

I agree with you about rudder not turning planes. I took an emergency maneuvers training course and that was a basic concept taught.

My question is in reference to adverse yaw and differential lift on the wings. If I pump in left rudder, the plane yaws left. The right wing should move forward into the slipstream while the left wing moves back. The difference in the airspeeds over the respective wings should cause the right wing more lift than the left thus rolling the plane into a left bank. In theory the horizontal component of lift should then "turn" the plane. How can this be explained and tied into your previous statements that rudder "can not" turn a plane?

Granted that such a turn is uncoordinated and dangerous. However it ailerons should fail in a roll position, rudder can be used to compensate for the turn induced and the plane can be safely landed. I learned that in my EMT training. Also the use of the slip involves a yawing of the plane and an opposite rolling to counteract so that the plane flies in a straight line but is yawed.

Would you clarify that for me please?

Thanks

Roodester

HarryC is right, rudder can not turn a plane....alone. You are also right.....

When you kick the rudder on an aircraft which has some sort of dihedral, as you said, you end up with one wing lifing, therefore the lift vector will cause the airplane to make a turn. However, if a plane does not have any dihedral, just try to kick the rudder and watch what happens....nothing....except you will be flying through the air sideways.


This is how a 3 channel trainer flys....lots of dihedral.



My $0.02


SloFlight (Micah)

Thanks for the reply.

Makes sense to me.

Roodester

Depending on the airplane......The airspeed does not have to be increased.
Procedure would be to yaw the airplane with rudder, and opp aileron.....ex: right rudder, left aileron. In this case one is looking out the side to keep alignment with the runway.....airspeed is not a real factor if entered a few knots above approach speed.
The buff would "stray" many degrees and the landing gear was aligned with the runway......prior to touchdown we used rudder to align the a/c...(thank the big guy for AILS) .In Thiland , I once witnessed we were 20 degrees from the runway heading. (out of the envelope)
The buff was slow to coorporate with the input.......it was like too much negative expo.....Point: Rudder is a tool we need......it just depends on what we are flying.
Sub note: We always had to input aileron to complement the rudder.....
I hope I made sense of this difficult topic.
Doc

Sorry just plane wrong.

Rudder controls yaw, which is turning within the plane formed by the pitch axis line and the roll axis line. While its true you turn tighter by rolling then using pitch control to convert lift into a turn, the rudder will still give plenty of turning control.

Use of rudder should be stressed durring training on landings. At low airspeed the ailerons can cause severe adverse yaw effect and can cause a violent tip-stall on some planes. You won't see this problem as much with a 4-ch trainer, because the design is intended to prevent it from happening. Try using ailerons and no rudder for an approach with a heavy scale warbird... you'll be picking up pieces. Failure to learn to use the rudder is one reason for a lot of model aircraft crashes. Low, slow and using ailerons for correction is often a recipe for disaster.

The rudder can sometimes save you in case of aileron system failure too.

First thing I would do is after getting airborne I would find out how much power it takes to get your airplane to go as slow as possible without falling off course. Set your elevator trim tab so that your airplane flies level flight at this slow speed and note the throttle setting to memory.

Now fly the landing pattern a few times at a confortable height around your flying field.

On your 4th and final approach you already know how much power it takes to keep your airplane level so set your throttle to that position and bring your aircraft towards the end of the runway. Test your elevator to make sure that it is not too sensitive.

As you near the end of the runway your nose attitude should be slightly nose down and your speed should be enough so that you have positive control of the airplane.

As your airplane approaches touchdown you should be backing down off of the throttle and flaring (gentle back pressure on your elevator) your elevator so that you level out just before touchdown. At this point your stearing keeping the airplane straight will bleed off your speed acting as breaks until you stop the forward momentem.

Just to throw some "oil on the fire" of this conversation, let's consider a crosswind landing using a forward slip to bleed of altitude. Any takers on direction of movement using rudder?

If the wind is crossing from port to starboard, apply right rudder and left wingboard. Keep your nose toward the wind.
NO FLAPS when slipping!
Good Luck..

Doc

I wouldn't say no flaps... I did some major slipping with my Kadet Sr equipped with flap with flap settings from 0 deg to 80 deg deflections. The flaps helped maintaining stability... but the airspeed sure bled off quick at higher deflections. (which is why I wanted the flaps down anyway)

Nothing quite as interresting to watch as a 60 deg angle between fuselage and runway (and ground path) just prior to touchdown. You do have to know the airplane before you try it.

Rudder is held as if trying to turn downwind, ailerons as if upwind in a normal slipping crosswind final approach. The rudder is helping hold the nose up as a portion of the wing's lift is being used to counter the croswind.

FHH,
You might want to get in touch with the US Air Force and let them know that flaps are permissiable in a slip....They taught us wrong I guess....
Doc

My belief here is that there are very big differences between wing lodings on models vs full size, thereby allowing models to get away with many things that a full size cannot. eg: power-to-weight ratio and others.
My instructor use to yell forward slip! good for vision when you have big engine in front, good to bleed off altitude in a hurry, add flaps and slip into your GRAVE!

Power to weight probably has something to do with it too...

And... Air force rules aren't necessrilly the rules of aerodynamics and aerobatics. Lots of things aren't good ideas without a lot of practice and knowing the responses you'll get from the aircraft.

Taking a hint from Bob Hoover's biography... practice every manuver at altitude, with plenty of recovery room until you know how to do it perfectly every time. THEN you can try the maneuver (if the airplane is capable of it...) when low. Else... you break things. (and with models, you'll still break things occasionally when pushing the plane's limits...)

It'll be a few more flights with my new plane before I'm doing take-off rolls with it.