Well I was feeling pretty good about my skills until I read a post where a member claims that, to have mastered a trainer, one should be able to preform all of the following maneuvers. I wonder if some of these are even possible with a high wing / high dihedral trainer. What better way to find out than post a poll

If you can pull these off, offer any tips on how to do it. If not, maybe the tips offered here might help improve your skill.

Edit: I added the last option after 2 people had already participated. Everyone that takes the poll needs to select this option. The numbers will then have a basis, otherwise they may not mean much... Please be sure to select that option to keep the numbers meaningful!!

I'm flying a PT40. Here are a couple of notes regarding the items in the poll:

Fly inverted? Low inverted?
Yes. Need to really work the throttle to keep that nose up
4 point roll?
No way. I can't even pretend to get the PT40 to knife edge.
Slow roll?
Yes, assuming enough airspeed to begin with.
Rolling circle?
Yep
Loop?
Yep
Avalanche? Loop with a snap on top?
Yes, assuming a whole lot of air speed to start the loop. If not, the snap at the top never happens.
Snap roll?
Yep
Tumble?
Yep
Stall turn?
Yes, into a 6 or better mph wind. Otherwise, its really more of a fall rather than a turn.
Short approch?
Yep, especially into a wind.
Fly both left and right pattern?
Yep
Spot land where you want it to land?
Yep

Great Planes PT-60
Inverted, loop, roll, immelman, split-s, cuban 8. The plane will do more, these are all I know how to do.

Jason,

I also questioned some of the manuevers the other poster suggested to demonstrate having mastered a 'trainer' model. I have spent decades building and flying r/c planes, instructed beginners and basic aerobatics at each club I've joined, and flown most types of planes (trainer, sport, combat, quickie 500/200, pattern, scale and twin), but have no experience with helicopters, jets, QMs or giant scale. I do not claim to be an expert only stating that I have some experience.

Presuming proper set up and balance, and an engine near the top of the recommended power range, I believe almost all of the most common trainer aircraft are capable of inside loops, rolls (barrel and slow), stall turns, spins, Cuban 8s, Immelmans, Split Ess and short approaches. Depending on the particular model and the wing dihedral, snap roll and knife edge may not be possible. If not, then 4-point roll and avalanche will not be possible. Some trainers will not stall, they simply mush into a slow loss of altitude, and can not perform a spin.

In my opinion you are wringing the most out of your PT-40!! Regarding your comments on how you perform some of the manuevers;

I don't understand working the throttle. I fly inverted at the same 'cruise' setting I use upright, 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. With my Funtana 40 I need no elevator, a little forward stick with my Super Stearman, and a little more forward stick on the H9 Alpha. The Alpha is a little tough for me to keep inverted and I work the heck out of coordinating rudder with the minor ailerons during turns around the field. However, a recent student with lots of simulator and electric (J-3 Cub) flying kept his Alpha inverted during four circuits of the field...on his third flight with the Alpha.

I fly slow rolls as I would in a full size, non-aerobatic aircraft. Put the plane into a slight climb, then start the roll. Use elevator/rudder/elevator during the roll to minimize the nose drop. The amount of nose up climb required to be able to complete the roll with no loss/gain of altitude depends on the specific trainer/sport model being flown.

Without seeing you perform this, or understanding more, I can't comment. Please provide the steps you perform to do your stall turn.

Using a headwind is cheating! I learned the mechanics of 'short approaches' before I started flying r/c, while taking flying lessons for my pilot's license. The key is in losing altitude without increasing forward speed. The necessary manuever is called a 'slip.' Bank the plane (let's say left bank) and input opposite rudder to keep a straight line over the ground. With the wing angled you lose altitude, but since the nose isn't lowered you do not gain much speed. Bring the wings level, removing the cross rudder just above the height you would begin to flare for the landing.

That's great! Sounds like you're having lots of fun with the PT!! One manuever you haven't got there is the Stall Turn. I'm sure you can learn it. Mechanically it seems easy, but requires lots of practice to get it right... pull smoothly into vertical climb.... reduce throttle, holding vertical as the model slows the climb.... as the model stops climbing input full rudder to kick the tail around.... release the rudder input to enter vertical descent, and hold for a short time..... smoothly pull the nose to level flight, adding power for cruise speed. Difficulty comes in using rudder and/or elevator to counter any wind effect so that the climb and descent are actually vertical, instead of angled. Also timing of input/release of full rudder must be learned for each model. BTW adding some power for just a second as you go full rudder can help on some models.

Good stuff Tony!! I should probably apologize; my terminology is still very much in need of tweaking. I am probably not using the right terms/phrases. So, I appreciate your attempts to translate for me. Let me try and clear up what I mean (and it very well could be I'm not doing what I think I'm doing!!)

Inverted: The second I flip the PT40 over, it wants to take a nose dive. I find that odd since it does not want to climb when upright. It *seems* that applying more power in short bursts brings the nose right back up. Also, when inverted the plane seems to brake in mid air therefore simply nudging the elevator only seems to exacerbate the issue. For my particular build (this was my first kit build), the only way I can stay inverted seems to be by fluttering the throttle, along with the elevator and ailerons for turning.

Slow roll: Your comments make me think my issues with the slow roll might be the same issues with inverted flight. As soon as the plane crosses over the 90degree mark, it wants to nose dive. The airspeed seems to nullify this effect, to some extent.

Stall turn: It very well could be I don't really know what this is. I thought it meant flying vertical, stalling out vertically, then turning directly left or right. The plane then almost turns like a clock hand in mid air. In my case, again since the plane wants to tip when not upright, unless there is a wind pushing me back to vertical, the plane seems to fall over top then turn.

Short approach: Hehe you caught me. I need work on this. Thanks for your suggestions! Can you define "bank"? When I think of slipping, I picture the big 747s coming in, nose up, tail down... is that what we're talking about?

PS: See my plane below. Thats a OS 40LA up front, and the CG checks out right where the manual says it should. I probably built it a bit crooked, but she is a hearty girl and I love her to death. That nose dip thing when inverted has be puzzled though... and just to beat ya all too it... that busted prop is NOT the problem I was taxing around, you understand, showing it off to the neighbors... well lets just say those curbs sure aint forgiving...

[

Inverted: The second I flip the PT40 over, it wants to take a nose dive. I find that odd since it does not want to climb when upright. It *seems* that applying more power in short bursts brings the nose right back up. [/quote]



A flat bottom wing will always loose altitude when inverted, it dosen't really make any lift that way! The reason you seem to gain altitude when you hit the throttle is that you have downthrust in the engine.

You really ought to think about getting yourself another sport plane.....


Andy

i can crash my trainer!
its the best thing you can do! (if you hate your plane!)
LOL.
Na, i only smashed 1 trainer twinstar and superair while landing on its madien!
trainer = bin
twin = sold
superair = repaired!

Andy, a flat bottomed wing flies inverted just fine -- you simply have to have enough speed and sufficient AOA. Trainers are a blast to do aerobatics with because it is so difficult to do a number of maneuvers smoothly -- & when you can do them well, you really have accomplished something.

Only thing there I cant make my LT-40 do is tumble.

But it does hover nicely!!!!

When I was doing cuban 8's with touch and go's in the middle section, I was told to get a new plane...LMAO! !!!

LT-40 with a TT.46Pro spinning a 12.25x3.75 rocks !!!

Lately I've been doing flatspins with the trainer I keep around. And yes, they are true flat spins, not normal spins, and not spiral dives. Had to move the CG way back and add a ton of rudder throw, but it works. The entry is also tricky, since the wing doesn't want to stall, any forward airspeed at all and you don't get a spin, you get a mush.

I've had a couple of lawn-mowing saves while doing this, one that was actually an "out of sight" save, where the plane actually dropped in to a valley during the pull out, if I had been closer to the runway, it would have splattered. Turns out that once deep in the flat spin, just releasing the controls results in an exit from the spin 3-4 turns later! [X(]. Lots of fun.

Oh, as for the other acrobatics, moving the CG that far back also greatly reduces the tendancy of the plane to dive when inverted, so inverted flight is better, making the various rolling manevers work better.

Oddly enough, the plane spins inverted quite nicely, but won't do an inverted flat spin at all, at least I've not been able to flatten out an inverted spin yet.

I can do all of those with my trainer except for the tumble and rolling circle.. I can do about 1/4 or 1/2 of the rolling circleand have never tried the tumble.

SuperStar 40 ARF
Super Tigre G51
APC 11x6

Montague, my Superdupersuperstar is like that -- no inverted flat spin -- but killer outside snaps & inverted unflat spins.

I guess I should have added "Crash" as an option... Sunday was not a good day

I think I would have added a Knife Edge. With enough power and rudder I could get my LT-40 to KE but man did it take allot of aileron to hold it from rolling level from the dehidral.

Of the list manuvers I could do them all with the exception of the tumble and rolling circle with the LT-40.

In your description of your stall turn that is basically called a wingover. A stall turn in IMAC requires that the downline be flown within 1/2 the wingspan as the upline.

The way I do it is to climb and then cut throttle to about 1 or 2 clicks above idle. Now, during the climb I am watching the planes nose. If I went into the veritcal with wings level and no wind then right as the plane lost airspeed I would kick the rudder in the direction I wanted to go. If during the upline I noticed the nose going in one direction, that is the direction I gave rudder when the airspeed dropped off.

The key is to leave a little throttle on so you have rudder authority and to be as close to straight up as possible. Not enough straight up and the plane will nose over, to much vertical and it will roll over on it;s back. If you find yourself just doing a wingover you most likely started adding rudder to soon. If the flight path is to one side then all it will do is a wingover unless you give it rudder in the opposite direction and a quick/very short blast of power right as you give it rudder. You can also give it a blast of power (not full throttle but just enough to help it along) if you find that you need to help the rudder get it's authority.

I asked Don Szcur to trim my trainer for me last summer. He made that thing perform manuvers that were unbelievable. I am not familiar with the names of many of the things he did, however, to name a few: Inverted flight, Cuban 8s, rolling circles, and he actually almost got it to hover. Its amazing what a plane can do in the hands of a truly skilled pilot.

Victor

I didn't see hover on the deck?

Don has done the same for me many years ago.....I bet he could fly the novice pattern and score 10's with a 3channel trainer!

Jerry

When I started flying a couple of years ago. I had a 46fx on my Superstar 40 and was able to KNIFE EDGE the plane although it did not like to do it, but it was pretty cool. You do need a lot of engine and increase the rudder throw a little.

I am able to do rolling circles also.

I have seen a trainer hover only once. 40 size trainer with a .60 engine.