Flight #4 of the Skyshark Fantasay...I'm about 100 feet or so off the deck and moving from left to right just over the runway. She's movin at a very nice slow steady pace... I prepare for a bank to the left... and... stall. Time stops. The nose seems to drop in slow motion just as the turn starts and she just seems to hang there; nose pointed straight down. Down she goes in a blaze of prop parts, balsa, Ultracote and mudd. The front was stuck six inches in, the whole back half of the fuse broke off at the back of the canopy. The nose broke off in the ground at the firewall... the only thing holding the three parts together was the control rods. I wanted to cry.

So, here is the lesson: I am simply not ready to move beyond the trainer. I need to know how to handle those types of situations. I need to understand the warning signs, to know the triggers, to how not to have brain freeze.

Here is the question: what can I do to my Great Planes PT40 to take it up one level in terms of performance and learning potential. I've got it set to the more dihedral setting, its got a OS .40LA and standard Futaba analog servos. It really can't do many things in terms of inverted flight (the dihedral really prevents it), loops, flat spins... ect. What must I do to take this bird up one level, but not too far that I'm unable to handle it.

Maybe I am just bummed. But even before the crash I had the nagging feeling the plane was just too much for me. I'm not suffering from a lack of confidence at all... I'm just paying attention to the obvious lack of experience and skill, and am trying to understand my current limits and figure out the best way to slowly push them.

Your thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated.

There are things you could do to your PT40, but I would suggest a good intermediate trainer. The Midwest Aerobat would be ideal - it's builds in one day and won't break the bank. Or maybe even a duraplane till you get past the "Bang 'em up" stage (Just make sure to get one with ailerons)

Here's a review of the Aerobat:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=164

Sounds to me like all you really need to do is practice, practice, practice with the PT 40 until you get Super comfortable with it. From what I read it sounds like you tried to run before you could walk, very common with new people. Practice the basics, figure 8's, slow flight , approaches, passes, touch and go's etc. until they really feel good ---AND DON'T push the envelope until you are Really comfortable. When you get comfortable with it then ----- Increase the aileron throw a bit then the elevator then the rudder and learn how to use it. Then if you still want more, figure out how to get rid of some of the dihedral. I don't really care for the PT but it can do a lot if you just take your time and ENJOY what you have.
ENJOY RED

Mike, I'll check into it, thanks.

Red, thats just it. I was ready to move on. I've flow the PT probably 50 times now. I've basically mastered 8s, passes, touch and goes, landings against the wind, with the wind, in a cross wind... basically I, my trainer and all those that watched felt I was very ready to move on. I still think I am. Perhaps, though, the Fantasay was just too much of a move ahead.

The PT shouldn't have been to much of a move ahead !!!! it's a trainner !!! Talk to your instructor and discuss what you think is wrong . Maybe you need a different plane or just some coxing with what you are doing. I agree with MINNFLYER about the Aero Bat I have 3 of them and fly the living crap out of them. I don't agree about the duraplane though, it can be a rel beast to get set up if you don't know what your doing. Talk to your instructor first, then get an AEROBAT and thank us all later!!!!
ENJOY RED

[quote]ORIGINAL: JasonWilliam

So, here is the lesson: I am simply not ready to move beyond the trainer. I need to know how to handle those types of situations. I need to understand the warning signs, to know the triggers, to how not to have brain freeze.


Well, admitting you have a problem is the first step in the road to recovery. I suggest you fly the trainer for a while. After you stuff a few more planes, you'll catch on. You need to pay your dues. Dont feel to bad though. We have a regular here has gone through about 30 large planes in 4 years and still counting (seriously) He doesn't get it and never will, so he keep crashing them and buyimng new ones.

I can tell you that another plane is better for what you want to do, but what I did with my PT40 when I flew through a tree
after about its 30th flight was to order a new wing kit and I built it w/o any dihedral or washout,
it flew really good and quite a bit faster. It couldnt do knife edges but inverted flight was fun and really pretty stable and alot more aerobatic than the orig wing
Steve

Actually the Fantasay was the move ahead from the PT. The PT has been an excellent plane to learn on, however, I feel like I've gotten pretty much all I can out of it. One guy asked me if I could fly the PT inverted 20 feet of the deck at slow speed, and I asked him if he could? The point is the dihedral of the thing is now preventing me from gaining anything much further.

I love to build, but perhaps the Aerobat ARF is a good thing to grab, in efforts to get me in the air, with something that will actually challange me. I just think its time to move beyond the PT, and everyone that has seen me fly thinks I should have months ago.

Minn/Red/All... do you think a Thunder Tiger 40 Pro is enough engine for the Aerobat? I've got one laying around I picked up used for $40 and am thinking it might be a nice fit. What do you think?

jason the TT .40 Pro will do great in the Aerobat. An excellent engine with almost an inperceptable level of power differance from the tt.46 in that application.

Also I would like to suggest the Aerobat is an excellent choice for what you want and obviously need. The Midwest aerostar trainers are superb airplanes somewhat neglected and the new Aerobat is just an ARF that incorporates many of the little type mods that make for a better aerobatic trainer.

An oft neglected factor moving up in airplane performance is not speed, fast control response or neautral vs positive stability. It is in fact the ability to maintain orientation with an airplane of an entirely differant configuration. Not often mentioned as you know orientation is vital and directly related to airplane configureation. Arguably Hi wing cabin types are the easiest to maintain orientation with and low wings are further down that list (actually flying wings are at the bottom of the list). There is no doubt in my mind that orientation was the chief problem with your Phantasy and why you failed to maintain airspeed and stalled .

Its for this reason an airplane like the Aerobat can for some be a better stepup with the hi wing but also some of the more advanced characteristics like more responsiveness and more neautral stability (that stays where you point it character). Its also why the Ugly sticks and clones have been very successful as move ups.

John

Don’t be too hard on yourself and the plane. Yesterday I was at the field and was enjoying watching one of the more experienced flyers putting on an impressive show with a “Something Extra�. He had been flying for around fifteen minutes and done everything the airplane was capable of. During a low maneuver the airplane suddenly rolled and went in nose down. One model totally destroyed. He wasn’t looking for excuses, he said he just goofed.

The fact is even experienced skilled flyers sometimes make mistakes. It’s all part of the hobby.

Don't feel bad. This happens to all of us - "dumb thumbs", not thinking, etc.

As for the PT 40 - remove the dihedrahl from the wing. Change the landing gear over to a taildragger and move the CG back a little and you will have a "new" plane.

Put the AXLES of the LG even with the leading edge of the main wing. I have also had excellent sucess with Sullivan tailwheel assemblies.

If you decide you don't want the "hassle" of converting the PT over, take a look at the SIG 4* and World Models Rambler 30. Both of these planes will make an excellent 2nd plane and provide you with a nice aerobatic trainer to boot.

Remember, you have to learn to walk, before you can run.

I'd only add that 50 flights on a trainer isn't all that much in the way of preparation for a second plane, particularly something like a Phantasy.

You never mentioned aerobatics as being something you could do with the PT, so maybe you DO need more time with it. And yes, I could fly the trainer inverted 20 feet off the deck, but I have 9 years with a myriad of planes under my belt.

You should at least be comfortable with most aerobatics on the PT before you move on. The Aerobat is a good one, as is a 4*, or many others that have been mentioned as second planes.

Good luck,
Dennis-

I wish GP would do away with that "B" wing dihedral jig. I haven't found a single experieced flyer that recommends building the wings with that much dihedral. I've been told that the only thing that it does is make ground handling difficult in the slightest of cross breezes. It also seems to limit the plane so much that the pilot gets bored/frustrated quickly, though you say that you can't do loops, and the dihedral shouldn't prevent that. Are you sure you have enough elevator throw? If you're climbing too slowly, you don't have the power to prevent a stall before you get over the top of the loop. This would also make it very difficult to maintain inverted flight, as the PT is going to want a lot of down elevator to maintain level inverted flight. If you have 50 plus flights on this plane, increased throws won't be a problem. Try setting the elevator to maximum, take the plane up several mistakes high and half loop into inverted. If you lose control, just let it roll upright and fly out. You might need to go a little past the top and let the plane lose some altitude to gain enough airspeed to stay inverted, but it's going to pull level rather slowly, so keep the dive as shallow as you can.

I guess I should clarify a bit on what the PT can and can't do (more specifically, what I can and can't do with the PT). Loops are no problem. Rolls are no problem (they can't be called snap rolls). Controlling the stall after a vertical climb is no problem. All in all the plane is a good flier with extremely docile characteristics. Inverted flight is also no problem, IF you have enough height to pull out of it. There is simply no way I can figure out that allows for coming out of the inverted flight without the nose diving immediately and 20 + feet of altitude lost. This is why I (and others) feel the PT has served its purpose and I'm ready to move on.

Based on the comments here, I still feel very ready to move on. I think the Aerobat is probably a great next step. The Fantasy was... well... just too darn much plane for me at this time. There will come a time, though, when I'll be ready for a low wing. Just not today.

Besides, that BTE Venture sure looks like a nice one eh?

Ok, 'nuff said about the PT, Now let's move on...

The gist of what I said earlier is that you are past the trainer stage, so going back to the PT isn't going to help. You're an ideal candidate for an intermediate trainer. I suggested the Aerobat because it is: Good, Very quick to assemble (So you won't have much down time while you're building a kit) and inexpensive (About $150)

There are many others, but having reviewed the Aerobat, I know first hand how perfect it is as an intermediate trainer. In all the reviews I have done, this is still one of my favorites.

Of course, there are many others in both ARF and kit form that you could get, and while I like to build too, you could have an Aerobat flying in one day.

Then you can start building that next plane

Mike thats exactly it! I'd pick one up today if my LHS wasn't closed for the holiday. They are a Midwest distributor!

Help me select an engine / prop combo. I've got a TT 40 Pro on hand, but I'm thinking I wouldn't mind going with an OS 46AX. What do you suggest? What prop would you start with, and then where would you move to and why? Also I like the taildragger option. Anything complicated or non-desirable about it if I build it that way?

Thanks all for your help, and Mike thanks so much for your always helpful recommendations, hints, advice and guidance!

Two things that helped me along the learning curve.
1- built another wing with little diehedral.
2- move the cg back a little at a time, this did wonders for the aerobatic abilities of the plane.

Have fun, Mike

My firsr AeroBat had an OS 40 with 10/6/7 props and it flew fine, then I went to a 46 with 11/6/7 props and that was really fine, now 1 has an OS 52 4c and the other has a Sato 56 I use 11 & 12 /6/7 props and they are a ball. As far as the landing gear goes I have 1 that is a trike and the other 1 has a tail wheel. The tail wheel is a free swivel type, it takes a little getting used to but works fine and I've used this same swivel type on other planes. The neat thing about it is you don't have to hook up a lot of junk to make it work and it can be a good learning devise. I use a BuBRO # 375 tail wheel bracket and cut the wire off just above the wheel collar so it can swivel. By the way I still have all 3 and 1 was 1 of the first sold years ago. They are neat planes, it's to bad more people don't try them. They even make a great first time plane for most folks, it's that good.
What ever you do Good Luck and Enjoy

I'll probably be here again if you have any more questions for me. RED

Practice two crashes high! Don't care what your flying. Learn by doing, but try it out at a height that you can recover.

You stalled and was just one crash high. Next airplane learn how to recover from stalls, stall turns, inverted flight - I fly a 'mud duck' with lots of dihederal and no ailerons inverted. took a lot of tries befor I learned how to do it without ailerons TWO CRASHES HIGH.

Got the picture, you can almost do any aerobactics - a duraplane can fly inverted, but with a hight rate of climb towards the ground - as long as you give yourself anough air space.

Been there and done that, always recoverd with enough height. I even practice landing slow with a new bird two crashed high with recover from any suprises, and until you learn how there is aways a suprise!

Good Luck. Bill Drummond, Salem, Oregon. "Na, it doesn't rain all the time, just every day."

Just wondering whats the dihedral on that PT?

Another possibility in addition to the Aerobat might be an Avistar ARF with a 46. A bit " hotter " than the average flat bottom winged trainer. Balanced properly it`ll do lots of basic aerobatics while retaining enough trainer characteristics whereby it won`t get away from you. Learned to fly with one and still enjoy it.

I was just rereading this post and noticed that every time you mentioned flying inverted you said PULL OUT. That should be a big NO NO for a new pilot, you never pull out -- you ROLL OUT, until you have enough PRACTICE to know when it is safe to pull out, even then it might not have been enough PRACTICE. Hope by now you are ENJOYING your AEROBAT, let us know.

Well, what a weekend.

I took out my brandie new Aerobat and had a blast. This plane is no joke; she's a real screamer. That TT 46 Pro up front is a perfect match. I probably put 15 flights on it this weekend and by the end of today it was purring like a kitten.

Some of the comments from the weekend:

"Take it easy Jason! Your going to fly her apart!"
"I'd never have thought that plane could fly like THAT!"
"Wow that bird is fast."
"Who makes that? They call it a TRAINER??"
"That plane should keep you busy for some time to come."
"Man that thing sure flies nice. You're keeping up with the Funtanas!"

Minn, thank you so much for the heads up on this bird. I may just be basking in the afterglow (fuel but I'm thinking even when I'm ready to move on, this one will still always have a place in the hanger.

The only issue I've found thus far (other than some peeling covering; nothing a little dope won't cure) is shown in the pictures. It seems the vertical stab was not completely glued down. Should I epoxy that puppy permanently in place?

So where from here? I plan to fly this thing until I just cant take it anymore. I'm thinking almost every weekend of this California spring and well into summer. During that time, I'm going to build Bruce Thorpe's Venture. I've been in contact with Bruce and we both agree that if I can master the Aerobat, I'll be very ready for the Venture. The only question is... do I put the Saito 91 (from the Fantasy) in it. Bruce thinks thats a bit much, but I cant see letting this engine rust on the shelf.

So I'm one happy flier. Thanks to the support and encouragement from my friends at the club, and you all here, I've turned a bad situation into something very educational and productive. Thanks guys, I sincerely appreciate it.

-JW

PS: Can someone recommend some self help/training books/websites/any info regarding how to extend my flying abilities? Something that shows how to manipulate the sticks or maneuvers good for strengthening my abilities?

Hi Minn.

You hit the nail right on the head with that one. I bought the Midwest Aerobat and it is truly a great second plane, even though I do have a Tiger 60 and a Four Star 40. Both low wingers are great flyers, the Tiger is more forgiving and gentle, but the Aerobat is like an aerobatic trainer, which it is.

On Saturday, I was out when I should not have been. There was a pretty stiff cross wind and I mean stiff and I do mean cross... just about perpendicular to the runway. I took off anyway, and got into trouble when it came to landing it. I was headed into the wind to try a cross-runway landing, the runway is about 150 feet wide, so all was ok until at about 5 feet high the wind just stopped for a moment and the Aerobat dropped out of the air. It sheared the main landing gear bolts (nylon) and broke the prop. That's all, I was very lucky, fixed it at the field and cleaned it up and went home.

My point here is that it is a great handling and easy flying plane. It requires a little prop adjustment to slow it down a bit because it is much faster than the good old NexSTAR but will handle the slower speed pretty good.

IMO, Great choice for a second.