Have any of you newcomers used the "Co-Pilot" in your initial training? If so, did you like it? What were your experiences with it?

Jerry

There is a lot of differing opinion regarding this product. There are a few situations noted in the instructions that mention certain conditions where the produt won't work (minor for this topic).

I have set one of these up on a Cub for a club member. Being able to let go of the controls and have the plane return to upright level flight is a good thing. However if done close to the ground it could cause disaster. Flying at a reasonable altitude would give good results. If on a buddy box taking control and "righting" the plane is exactly what this product does. An opposing view is that training a new pilot to release the controls in a situation could cause problems later in the learning curve. For example if the plane is heading at the pitts and the controls are released in a panic the results may not be the intended ones.

Howard Matos (of FMA) has used this at the DC/RC field with good results.

Used as a tool for learning with this is a good question. Just how good a tool this is would depend upon the use it is given in a specificic situation.

EXCAP232

I started flying glow RC the third week of this June. I tried my hand at flying a Zagi foam wing during the fall of the previous year without much luck, but I did learn a lot about radio gear and push rods ,and batteries. I started using a Sim on my PC hooked up to my TX and decided to try My hand at motor planes.(I have to say the hours and hours of time on the ism helped a lot when I got to flying real RC) I finally found a place to fly and the following are My thoughts about FMA Co-Pilot:


I have used FMA co-pilot extensively over the last few months to teach myself how to fly RC. First off ,do not set it at 100% gain. If you get inverted at a low altitude the auto correction can and will do some bad things to right the plane and send it into the ground. 50% gain is plenty of sensitivity for the beginner. Secondly if the preflight IR check results in a reading of 1 the copilot will still level the plane ,but here again the lack of IR contrast between the sky and ground can confuse the unit and again bad things can happen. An IR reading of 1 occurs during weather you would'nt want to fly in anyway.(fog,low overcast, drizzle) Thirdly, set the unit up to utilize the remote feature on an extra channel, that way you can get it up to a safe altitude, turn the co-pilot off and learn how to fly. Fourth, do the leveling procedure accurately as this will improve the trim of the plane and greatly improve the dead stick quality of the plane(I use a small two axis bubble level on the horizontal stab. and a prop stick to get it right).

I started out using the co-pilot on My trainer(GP PT40),learning by Myself ,and I can say it really does help the new pilot. At 50% gain you do not have to fight the unit to fly. The copilot is great in windy conditions, and landings. I think it can only add to the safety factor of a beginner because if you loose control or contact with the plane and center the right stick, it will recover and fly level. So if your heading for the pits, panic, let go of the stick the plane will not fly into the pits but over them, giving time for you to recover your wits and start flying again.

The more sensitive the control surfaces on your plane ,the less gain you will need. I tried the co-pilot on My Extra Easy and turned the gain down to 30%, My Sig Something Extra needs less than 20% .

At present I use the co-pilot mostly for windy landings and "panic" situations the rest of the time I turn it off. I removed it from My trainer and can now fly this plane the old school way with out any problems.

The most valuable aspect of this unit is maiden flights. It will pay for itself many times over on the first flight of a new plane. the co-pilot reduces the pucker factor for Me on a planes first take off. You can get the plane up to a safe altitude, slow it down and trim it with out drama.


Larry Moore
Charlotte, NC.

Just courious How do you trim a plane with co pilot. Do you turn it on and to level the plane then off to see how far your trim is off. I understand that co pilot will level your plane. How do you know the amt of deflection it is applying to make level flight? I am ready to make a maiden flight on another and have a copilot that I haven't used yet. Would like to try it out for this purpose.
Al

[QUOTE]Originally posted by upnflyin
[B]Just curious How do you trim a plane with co pilot.

This pdf file explains how to trim with co-pilot: https://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1050.pdf

So we buy an ARF and stick a "Co-Pilot" in it

Are we ever having fun building and flying modelairplanes!

Ed S

I just found out by looking at my copilot that there is a later version update available which I will get. By the way Ed I see your point but this is a spad so not even a "kit" and definitely not an "arf". Not even any of that balsa in it. I guess its closer to scratch built than anything. Copilot is just for experimentation for me. Gotta try it.
Al

Mr. Smith ,,
From your posting of I can only guess you expect everyone to follow
your idea of "fun'...
I have been building/flying for quite a few years, yet I recently
purchased a FMA co-pilot which I will install on one of my Hobbico
ARF trainers..
And yes, I am having a royal blast doing this... One persons idea of fun may not be the same as another.. The overall picture is, that we are all in the same hobby.. HOBBY for FUN as
each of us defines it..
Thank you,
Robby

Robby,
I can agree with what you said about each having their own idea of fun, but looking back at the initial question on this tread it was asking about using the "co-pilot" in initial training for a pilot. I've flown a plane with the co-pilot installed and it was pretty neat to let go of the sticks and have the plane level itself, but I definitely wouldn't use one to teach somebody to fly. IMO the co-pilot would make the trainee lazy in having to level out the plane when they are in trouble. know what I mean?? why worry, just let go of the sticks and the plane will level out. so when does the pilot learn to bring a plane back level and upright?? or do you just keep installing the co-pilot in every new plane you get?? imagine trying to fly a 40% extra or and edge or a cap with the co-pilot in it. I firmly feel that learning to recover the plane is a major part of flying. I am an instructor at our field and whenever I am teaching somebody to fly I will not take control back from the student until the last possible moment. instead I prefer to talk the student through recovering it. yes, they aren't very good at it but after awhile they get the hang of it and before you know it they are soloing.

my 2 pennies worth would be to definitely NOT use the co-pilot for training.

just my humble opinion

But RCKEN, there is a degree of 'control' the pilot has when selecting to use the product as well as an "on" "off" possibility.

At 50-75% yes, the plane will quickly level itself if the sticks are released....do you know what happens when the sensitivity is only (say) 5%?

Jerry

Anyone selling these things Cheap?
I'd buy one for that maiden flight deal.......sounds like a great little product if you can turn it on and off at your leisure.

It cost $120.00. You can set the remote function to operate on a VR channel and adjust the gain from 0% to 100% as you fly.

RCKen

As was the recent discussion on gyros for a rudder in a normal
type plane.. As an *aid* to which a person can LEARN, I am all
for it.. I wholeheartly agree with you.. A person needs to learn
TOTAL control, not just basic functions.. My comment was directed
towards another poster who seemed to put down those things
which amuse some us.. I have seen, but not played with a co-pilot myself.. Soooo, I dropped the coin for one so I can PLAY with it..

Robby <just my 2˝˘ >

One thing that concerns me is that the untrained newbie eye of can get disoriented and can't tell if the plane is coming or going;
the Co-Pilot can't help in that situation. Many times I read of someone going out on his own thinking that the auto-pilot will basically teach him how to fly.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc-instructors

There are a lot of ways to learn how to fly RC. There's the renegade way: no AMA no field no research no practice, just buy it build it go out to a vacant field and throw it.
There's the AMA way: go to the club hang out fly the club planes spend a bunch of money and join the club hang out some more build the plane hang out with the instructor jump through the hoops and in a few years of hanging out you can fly whenever you want.
then there's the computer age way:set up your computer to hook up with your computer TX and fly your brains out on a computer sim using your computer TX read all the post on the RC UNIVERSE site on your computer buy a trainer put some servos and a RX with computer chips in it put a computerized dual axis stabilization system on the now fully computerized trainer and put your computer sim skills to the real world test.

If you spend any time on the sim AT ALL you will be able to tell if the plane is coming or going.

I used the computer way. I joined the local public flying field for $20/yr and an AMA membership. I busted a bunch of props learning how to land, had a few minor crashes with my trainer, none of which destroyed the plane or engine. As a matter fact I think the co-pilot actually helped in the crashes, because in each crash the co-pilot eventually overcame My dumb thumbs (as I screamed out the F word at the last minute) and the plane pancaked instead of lawn darting thereby reducing the damage.

I have a blast every time I fly and I think I'm addicted big time to this real time, non-virtual, computerized sport.

note: this is only my opinion it may be right but most likely im just full of it

I dont like the co-pilot to train on. I see it as a crutch that can start to be leaned on too heavily too quickly. if you get used to letting go of the sticks when you get in trouble how are you going to learn how to recover from a bad situation.

I learned the hard way. I got my "pilot" rating at my local field and one day while practicing stalls and such I got into a spin. so i corrected and pulled up... right into another stall spin, repeat until about 5' from the ground. this is the EXACT moment that I realized that no matter what situation you are in a cool head and smooth thumbs can get you out of most anything. I saved the plane with about 6"-1' to spare. (from the "peanut gallery" I heard someone yell "Stick save!!!!")

if I had a co pilot I might not have learn that lesson.

I am a firm beliver in the school of hard knocks.

you **** up, you learn not to do that again.
(I learned to ski that way ... fall "ok thats not a good idea", fall again "neither is that" soon by prosses of elimination i found out what worked )

now I do belive in a instructor because he can let you try to recover the plane and then grab it from you if he thinks its too close... meanwhile you shouldnt stop trying to recover it until after the instructor grabs control. this way you can learn to recover from stuff without letting go.

I can see letting go become a trained reaction to a bad situation with the co-pilot, you might not think it but some day you might get into trouble and you will let go without thinking expecting it to recover.

but that is just my opinion and like I said there is a good chance that anything I say could be worthless

I totally agree with Unstable, even if I didn't make it totally clear in my earlier post. I feel that using the co-pilot makes a pilot to reliant on the equipment to recover a plane in an emergency and never develops the skills needed to do it. And I have to disagree with goliath on the length of time needed to learn at an AMA sanctioned flying field. A lot of how long it takes to learn to fly really depends on the skills, determination, willingness to listen to instruction, and a few other things of the student. As an instructor at our field I've ran the whole range of students learning. I've had students that took almost a year to learn, and I've had students that soloed in two weekends. And there were no corners cut on any student I've trained. They know how to safely assemble/build a plane, field rules, frequency rules, flight safety, how to recover a plane that has gotten away from them, dead stick landing, and finally soloing.

my second set of pennies thrown in here.

Thing is, so many have trouble finding someone to teach them, too many cannot find anyone at all.

The manufacturers of the Co-pilot simply filled a need for so many beginners. If someone invented a true auto-pilot that would do most if not all the work, the manufacturer couldn't make enough of such a device. Of course the users of this device would soon get bored of pushing a button to safely takeoff, do aerobactics and land perfectly every time. This would be to the benefit of the industry and more than likely, no one else.

The industry has a large market for things like "crash resistant" airplanes like the Aircore and the Co-Pilot, which is what the beginner thinks he wants, not what the purist thinks the beginner needs.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

I agree with "leave the co-pilot out of the plane while training". I took a Hobbico Brightstar up for someone for their second plane on the buddy box. Every time I gave them control they did fine until they turned the plane. The plane just stayed at an angle and started to lose altitude. It turned out that they had gotten used to the self leveling aspects of their trainer, let the sticks centre and the plane would level out. Of course it didn't work on the low wing plane! Now if someone trains using a co-pilot and gets used to letting the co-pilot take over for them, what kind of a pilot are they going to be?? What happens when they start flying a plane that doesn't have one of these things in the plane? I think it might have some uses for sport flying, but forget it for basic training! :stupid:

Since this thread seems to have been visited by lots of FAA co-pilot users perhaps some one can answer this question.
I have fitted a the basic fma co pilot to a e-powered raptor 30.
I have futaba T7CP transmitter. As I don't have a user switchable gyro I have both channels 5 and 7 free and have tried the co pilot attached to both.
The co-pilot works 100 % ok but what I don't under stand is how to fully turn off the pilot with a switch.
If I adjust end points on ch 7 , or on ch 5 the end points and the gyro top and bottom % I can get the co pilot to only reduce the swash plate movement in the "off" position , if I put my hand by the sensors there is still a small reaction and the swash plate moves a small amount. the only way I can get this not to happen is to turn the manual sensitivity to nearly off, this makes the switch "off" position truly off, but also severely affects the amount of movement that the co - pilot applies when in the switched on position on either ch 5 or 7.
so the question is ; How do I get the pilot to fully switch off but work on 100% position on the sensitivity position [ fully clockwise] when turned on?
regards
Alistair

Hi adwb,
I use the fs8 copilot on my airplane to help teach myself to fly. The feature that is causing your problem is the Auto Trim. This functions even when the gain is down to 0% as default, but you can easily turn it off. See page 18 of the FS8 reference manual. You need to turn this off. To change Auto Trim from on to off or vise versa, simply push the Receiver button 6 times while in the normal flight mode and then turn off the copilot by disconnecting the battery.

CRAP, I hate it when a product doesn't work when I haven't read the instructions but it does after

$69.95 + $8.00 shipping from FMA-Direct.com

Cheers

Greg thats interesting , there is no mention of pressing the button 6 times in my book, all it says is to turn it off and "this should significantly reduce the swashplate movement"
I will give your suggestion a go and see what happens
thanks
Adwb

My co pilot is integrated with the receiver-model fs8. I bet yours is the one that is used with a separate receiver. I looked at the manual for yours and It says in page 12 to turn the throw down to 0 to turn off the auto trim but this doesn’t make any sense to me because wouldn't that make it not work at all?