As many already know, I don't use a buddy-box when instructing, be it fixed or rotor wing instructing.
I've watched many buddy-box instructors attempt to instruct while his or her student is banging away on the control levers. Unfortunately for both student and instructor, this puts tons of strain on both parties, which is more than likely why it is said that instruction can only last for 6-10 minutes per flight lesson.

Why not give the student ground school, hands-on (dry fly) instruction before the plane gets in the air?
Then give the student imagined flight instruction, that way, the instructor can actually watch what the students fingers are doing without putting the trainer in danger. Have the student practice imagined flying while waiting for his turn on the box or any other time.

CCR

Best thing to do is get the student a few hours of sim time before putting him on the box...

Not sure how you do "imagined" flying...

What does one do if the student or instructor doesn't have a sim? Also, I've trained many students who have put in many, many hours on a simulator, but only managed to teach themselves bad habits, such as banging the sticks around, since there wasn't anyone there to monitor what their fingers were doing. Then I had to teach them to unlearn many hours of them "mixing a batter" with their fingers.

"Imagined flying" is telling the student how to move the sticks without flying the plane. The instructor through flying experience should know how the plane would react by any given stick movements on the tx and through his imagination, convey that info to his student. Like what a baseball batter, tennis player, golfer, boxer practices before they do their thing for real. Guess you would just have to use your imagination. LOL

CCR

The instructor can't see a plane the student imagines, and the student can't see a plane the instructor imagines. Yeah, you can tell a student how to move the sticks for certain maneuvers, but so what... unless he sees what happens to the plane when he moves the sticks, he'll never get the hand-eye coordination down.

Just buy a sim and sit down with the student for an hour or two and teach him to fly the simulated plane... even the crappy, free sims would be better than "imagining" you're flying, IMO...

I've used a form of imagined flying, ie: before takeoff, the student and I will go through verbal commands such as "right aileron", "left rudder", "half throttle", "up elevator", etc while moving the buddy box sticks. This establishes a very standard form of communication between myself and the student, and gets them used to the sticks-- because I will not allow them to look at the radio while flying. It helps, especially after the 5th or 6th flight. The instructions begin to be followed instantly.

The idea is to show the student the tiny amount and duration of stick movement is needed to fly smoothly. Until then he hasn't any idea of what he's doing wrong by his misconceived stick banging. I've been using this method for 3 decades with and without the use of a buddy-box. Over the years, it's interesting how many folks have tried to convince me that what I've been doing so successfully for so long cannot possibly work. lol

CCR

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/p...pcinc#p1463695

fliers1,

Out of curiosity, do you instruct your students in the purpose/function of the various control surfaces?

E.G., do you 'just' teach them 'ailerons make the plane roll' or do you explain that 'ailerons make the plane roll by deflecting up or down, and thus providing less/more lift/drag on the given wing. This causes that wing to deflect up/down, while the other wing acts in opposition' etc etc??

Also, on a completely different line of thinking,

What's the youngest pilot you've taught? Do you have suggestions for teaching a 6 yr old?

Never got that technical, only that the aileron stick causes the plane to bank left and right, which always seemed to be sufficient enough for them to learn to fly ASAP.

I've trained kids as young as 5 years old. As long as the youngster has patience enough to stick with the learning process, I don't do anything any different than teaching adults. Although I do have to teach on one knee with kids that young. lol

CCR

Speaking as one who learned years ago, when buddy boxes were just starting to be available, but certainly not common, and sims were not even imagined yet, I can say that this method of training works. I personally think that NO student should be told to go spend a few hours on the sim before working with an instructor. As has already been said, unstructured learning is very likely to create bad habits which then have to be untaught. Sims should be a secondary training aid, something to allow the student to reinforce what they have learned from the instructor, not a primary means of instruction.

fliers; Sometime when you have time. Get another qualified pilot that you (trust) and put the student up on a buddy box, you control the plane. Now have the other pilot stand behind the student with his hands on the sticks / student fingers. Now have the pilot do the flying and the student just follow along. It will only take a few minutes and the student will understand the smoothness needed. I caught on to this at one of the airshows we gave while putting kids on the buddy box. It worked much smoother and better for the show and kids to have a qualified pilot helping them, it also taught the pilot a few things. I don't believe in using this system to completly teach, but it is a very good tool in the teaching process.. As a side note; I have had another instructor fly the plane and I stand behind so I know what the student is doing.

Another note; when putting on buddybox seminars at airshows etc. Use a qualified instructor to fly the plane, then use someone behind the customer/student that has qualified to fly as the backup pilot. They will learn as much or more then the customer/student. The first time I did this at an airshow the backup pilot came up to me after words and commented that he had really gotten more out of the session then he ever thought possible. TRY IT, it is very helpfull and can be fun for both instructor and student and backup pilot if you use one. ENJOY !!!!! RED

I sort of understand where you are going and I think I sort of do something like that at times but don't really think about it.

Sounds like a great idea for those who use the buddy-box, but I managed to cut out the "middle man" (other instructor) and give the student hands-on instruction without even the remotest chance of the trainer taking a dirt nap. lol Thing is, I don't stand behind the student, but to his right, just like I was using a buddy/box, but just a little bit closer so I can calmly talk to him.

CCR

Oh! I stand corrected. I did use the method you suggested when I was teaching two school teachers to fly and teach at the same time. Both were learning to fly so they could create RC aeromodeling programs in their classes. One student was the "instructor" teaching the other student, while I was in the middle teaching both at the same time. It was the first time I did that, but it worked out pretty good.

CCR

I found a sim useful for two things.....and only two things besides a little entertainment(and i like real aircraft simes better for that).

I learned what diff control surfaces did(and what happend when you hit them togethere.....but then again i knew that from high end real air sims) to a plane, and i learned how to reverse controls while flying at me. thats pretty much all it ever helped me with


speaking of learning.....i go to fly my solo test tommorow

I am not an instructor but based on my experience, I think there are some really good suggestions here and they could improve the performance of the instructors. When I went out to fly one time, my younger son, who was 20 at the time, went with me. I was flying a Thunder Tiger Stick and he asked if he could try it. I got one of the instructors to take him up on my buddy box but he didn't give him any instructions except what each stick direction did. My son was bombing badly on the turns. Each time he made a turn, the angle would get too steep, the nose would drop, and the instructor would have to recover. I stood beside him and watched his thumbs and he was doing exactly as I expected, giving aileron in the direction of the turn and holding it. I told the instructor to take it and I used the buddy box to show him how to make the turns properly. I then placed my thumb of my right hand on his thumb and gave instructions on making turns to the instructor and I duplicated his movements. When my son took over again, his turns were perfect. After 2 tanks of fuel, he was flying without the instructor having to take control. I believe that he could have been doing approaches on the next lesson if we had had longer to stay. His only comment was that it was much harder than he had thought.

I believe that anything that can help the student get a feel for the controls prior to flying should not be ruled out. We have to realize that this is a whole new world to the student and what we take for granted because of years of flying is totally new to him. We tend to forget what it was like when we learned and because of this, we fall short on teaching the basics before putting the student on the buddy box.

Sims are extremely useful tools...

Using a sim I taught myself to fly a heli, and I was able to solo a plane on my third flight/tank. Typical newbies at my club that don't put in sim time spend a few months on the box before soloing... a couple of guys have been on the box for over a year!

If you're going to just play them as a video game, that's pretty much a waste... if you're serious about learning, though, they'll save you a lot of time and money in crash rebuilds and nitro costs...

You nailed it. Wonder what percentage of people could take a sim and apply the proper techniques without direction? You did it, I did it, but not everyone (especially the really young ones) has that kind of discipline. Besides, the more buddy-box time these folks get, the more real-world experience they get- which cannot be substituted with a sim. Things like viewpoint perspective, random wind conditions, and other people in the pattern. The sim is a good primer tool; the real world is where they will gain the truly useful experience.

That said, I am a simulator advocate!

I also think sims are quite useful for many people, but like I said, too many have self taught themselves bad habits using simulators. I've seen many fliers who used sims in the learning process who are so-so to very good pilots.

Thing is, most, if not all had very twitchy thumbs when flying. Some flew their airplanes smoothly, twitchy thumbs and all, but some had their planes jumping around like it was bumping into to something, although they could still takeoff, flying around and land more or less smoothly. Pehaps sooner or later they might realize that all of the extra stick movement wasn't necessary, but I've seen pilots with 15 years experience banging sticks though out the entire flight. Then again, if they are flying safely and having fun, who is anyone to say these stick banging fliers are doing anything wrong?

CCR