I recently had an eye opening experience. As a second plane I build a Great Planes Piper Cub. Found out a few weeks ago that my experience level is not up to flying it yet, so I have decided to scale back. I wan't to build the Sig 4 Star, but I'm trying to decide whether to build the 40 size or 60 size. Wondering what ideas all of you have.

p.s. Didn't crash the Cub. Fortunately I swallowed my pride and went up with an instructor. He had to recover many times and do the landing.

onlyb, I've got both sizes of 4*'s, and they fly about the same. The big one is easier to see. I know what you mean about the Cub. Taking off especially can be exciting.

i would go with the sixty simply because the motor is more versatile. you could overpower it with something bigger, or could even run a straight .61 or something, and use it to fly either another 60 size or overpower a 40 size plane. it just makes since to me, but i dont know much about the difference in the two planes

I have an OS 70 four stroke for the Cub. I have though I could use this if I get a 60 4 Star. The thing that really suprised me was how often I lost orientaiton on the Cub. Several times I ended up inverted, and didn't realise I was there untill the plane was heading earthward. I didn't do the take off either. Like I said. I swallowed my pride and let an instructor do the take off and most of the flying with me on a buddy box..

i would go with th 60 size then, for sheer cost reasons. i mean, if the fourty is a much better plane, go weith it, but you cant beat buying a hundred fourty dollar or so arf(i think there 140....maybe 160 im not shure)and having every thing else ready to for it. once you finish with it go back to the cub. I might be pointing you wrong, but im lookin at it from the $$ perspective. You gotta take my advice with a grain of salt...... most of my suggestions are my own common sense, not coming from XP. im shure someone like RCKen, or bubbagates(or the rest of the old hats at this) will pop up with a more edjucated opinion on the matter sooner rather than later. looks like tim has you covered for at least one good opinon

I understand the orientation issue. i got to fly for about five minutes today before i landed in frustration(and nearly lost the sucker in the sun). the sun got low, and at one point i didnt know wich end was up(got bad enough coming around for a landing, i was considering the option of intentionaly crashing it if i couldnt find it........it got RIGHT into te sun....but i found it). thats not an experience i would want to replicate. When i was training on the smaller faster plane i have, i found that BIG green or pink(NEON ultra tacky rice rocket looking stuff......made me want to lose my lunch green ) stripes on the underside of the wing helped ALOT. Im going to put some red striping on my newer one to help out in case i get in sun like that again(i wont put myself in that position intentionaly again......next time i will just fly on the other runway in a crosswind....)

I hate to ask this but, if you are still having trouble with basic orientation, why are you leaving your trainer?

This is what they are for. Slower and easier to control as a rule. You can always get one that your OS 70 would fit on if that is your desire.

How long have you been flying and are you really ready to move on? Be realistic please.

BTW TXAGGIE - I have one plane, the entire fuselage is neon green and the entire wing is neon pink. It is impossible to lose sight of it in any lighting conditions except for right in the sun which should always be avoided. I don't understand all these people who can't tell what way their planes are flying unless they have different colors or stripes or some other gimmick. I have ALWAYS had solid colors, because I like it that way, and NEVER had a problem. There are plenty of other visual cues. You can't see all that stuff under certain lighting conditions anyway. IMO

But hey, maybe that's just me. Go figure.

onlyb, the 70 FS is a great engine, but wouldn't be my first choice for either the 40 or 60 size 4*. If you put it on the 40, you will have to add tail weight to balance it. This means a hotter landing and a loss of nimbleness. I have a .91 four stroke on my 60 size, and I wouldn't consider it over powered. My friend put an O.S. 61 on his 40 size, and now he wishes he'd put a .46 on it. It will go like a bat out of hell though, and the 4* has so much wing area, a hotter landing is still pretty slow.

IF you want to go for a 4* then get the 60 size. Reason, better visibility because of larger size. Its much easier to see the orientation of high wing planes than low wing planes because you can see the fuselage sticking out the bottom. When a low wing plane gets out a distance sometimes all you can see is the edge of the wing which just looks like a line in the sky. If its not a contrasting color from the sky, you can lose it! Thats why I like to have some Neon Yellow stripes on each wing. It picks up the sun light and reflects back like a beacon, can't miss it! Based on what you told us, I would also buddy box the 4* for while. It will fly much faster than the Cub and react faster. Good news, the 4* planes have a very wide speed range and besides being fast at high throttle it will also putt around the sky very slowly at very low throttle settings and remain very controllable as long as you remember to throttle back. To be honest though, it sounds like you should stick with your trainer a while longer. You don't want to be guessing about orientaion on faster flying planes. [8D]

.60 size all the way. Bigger does fly better in most cases. Even if they fly the same,like someone else said, the engine will go on more planes in the future.



David

Well, I haven't given up on my trainer at all. In fact I agree with all of you that I still need more time on my trainer. I still enjoy flying it, and I now know I need more practice with it as well. I've put the Cub away and plan on not flying it until I have a lot more experience. I love building too, in some ways more than flying. I'm planning on getting the kit version vice the ARF. In fact both my LT-40 and Cub were kits. Some of the more experienced pilots at my club suggested the 4Star as a good second plane, and would be easier to handle than the Cub. If I do get the .40 I will probably put a .46 engine in it.

Onlyb,
I had to agree with Bruce88123 about the trainer, but you said you are still on the trainer which is great. As far as a 4* goes... If you plan on using the OS 70 on a 4* it's going to be overpowering the 4-star 40 and almost under-power on the 4-star 60. It's in a kind of grey region for the 2 planes. If I was asked to pick I would say go with 60 size. Bigger planes are just more smooth over all. Like I said, the plane will be almost underpowered with a 70 but you'll still be able to fly it just fine. You just won't be able to do unlimited vertical!!

Hope this helps.

Ken

I can do it with ANY color but white . Every plane ive had with a solid white wing i have issues with(all three started life that way), but i trimmed the first two and it worked MUCH better. My problem yesterday, i ended up right in the sun accidently.......that was almost REALY bad. im fixing to turn the bottom of my wing neon green with some stick on monokote, and i dont think ill have anymore issues

I would say the 4* 60...but thats just me...i have big hands and cant ever seem to do anything inside my nexstar (its a 40), im building a 4star 60 now and i can really work around the servos with my big hands...i dont think ill ever own another 40...

I also agree with all of you about the trainer (now after my wake-up call). I got ahead of myself with the Cub. I'm glad I got the Cub because I had a great time building it, but I'll just have to wait to fly it. I currently run an OS 40LA in my LT-40 and it seems to do well. How would this compare with the FS70 in the 60 4*? I'm not worried about unlimited vertical (yet). The instructor who flew the Cub said if anything it was a little overpowered with the .70 engine. The Cub is a .40, but I may put floats on it at a later date, so I wanted the bigger engine.

p.s. I looked on Tower Hobbies at the .60 4*, and they gave the engine range for a 4 stroke as .65 - .90.

the LA's are weak motors from what ive seen(our club trainerr has one.....put put put). i think the .70 would be better in the 60 size just looking at comparisons between the two planes(weight and size)but i might be wrong

Ok Time for me to chime in also

A 40LA on an LT40 will be just about right although a 46AX is better on that plane. A 70FS on the 4*60 is gonna be marginal at best. Plan on a long takeoff run. A 70FS on a 4*40 is WAY over powered and I doubt the airframe can take it for any length of time. Yes the 4* series are strong but over power them and you will see issues related to the firewall and front former where the wing dowels go into. The very two places that you do not want anything bad to happen

Now, if you are still having problems with orientation I HIGHLY recommend you go back on the trainer. I cannot stress this enough. Everyone has orientation problems at times but let me ask you these questions. I do all of these with my students before I turn them loose.

1.) Can you tell what the airplane is doing at all times
2.) Can you tell where the airplane is at all times
3.) can you do mulitple loops/rolls/stall turns all without losing altitude on the loops and rolls and follow the exact same line coming down as you did going up in the stall turn
4.) Can you fly inverted for at least three full patterns around the field maintaining altitude and track.
5.) Can you keep your plane reasonably straight on takeoff
6.) Can you land the plane in reasonably the same spot whenever you want
7.) if the plane is flying directly at you and someone tells you to turn right, can you do it every time, mostly without thinking about it (reworded below)
8.) How often do you grease your landings

If you can do all of the above with very little thought them move up to the next plane. If not stay with the trainer. Most every trainer, especially with the LT-40 can do all of the above and more.

I know allot of the above sounds harse but knowing and being able to do everything I listed will help you with that Cub and will make the transition to the second plane easier.

BTW, This is going to be a kit, so if you go with what is listed on tower for a 65 -70 four stroke then build extremely light and strong

I wouldn't be thinking about where to point the plane, I would stop to think about if you mean our right or the planes right...

akschu, I say this with all due respect to you.

You just proved the point I was trying to make. In the training that our club provides, it is understood and discussed during training that any time a direction is given it is automatically assumed it means the plane unless otherwise stated.

In most clubs I have visited and most pilots I have run into both RC and full scale, whenever a direction is mentioned or recommended then it is relation to the plane itself.

Sorry I was not more clear on this

I'll reword it since not everyone may be aware of this.

7.) If the plane is flying towards you and I tell you to turn the plane to the right, what way would you move the sticks.

Interesting issue.

I have a Four Star 40 and a Tiger 60. I fly both of them, but prefer the Tiger 60 for the visibility of the thing. It is larger so easier to see. the Four star is faster, and, because it is smaller, seems to be more maneuverable, however, the Tiger 60 does everything the Four star does, only, seemingly to me anyway, better. It seems much smoother. But, I DO enjoy flying both of them.

I had the Four Star out the other day, it was very warm and humid, and as a result, rather hazy. That caused a probem. It was about 9:00 am and the sun was still somewhat low in the sky which, along with the haze, caused me some rather interesting problems. I finally decided to practice landings (it's a tail dragger where the Tiger 60 is a trike gear with a nose-wheel). I did not fly it very high nor in the direction of the sun's location in the sky.

I am sayig all this because it shows that there are differences between the two aircraft (given the size difference) and that the 60 size is easier to see and seemingly easier to fly.

Now, I added a tuned pipe to the Tiger 60 and it is a whole different plane.. faster, and more power on the vertical. But, it still flys very smoothly as compared to the smaller Four Star 40.

Best of luck.. stick with the trainer for a while until you are more comfortable and, when ready, move up to a good low wing second plane like the Four Star 60 or Tiger 60.

DS.

here is no reason that the 4* 60 would not fly well with a 70 4 stroke. It has the same 72!QUOT! wing span and weighs less than a Sig Astro Hog which will fly quite well with a 70 4 stroke. With all honesty once you get it in the air a Cub is gentle flying airplane while there may be better choices for a second plane (because of ground handling problems) it still should not be a big jump for some one with lots of trainer time. You need more practice on your trainer, if you are having problems flying the Cub you will have problems with the 4* as well.

I have a 40 with a Saito 72 in it and it's a blast to fly. It's definitely overpowered (take-offs in 13 feet) but there's nothing that says you have to fly at full throttle. As for balancing, I didn't have to add any weight to the plane. I'll admit connecting the thottle control was a bit of a pain, but it was completely worth it. I do have one problem with the Four Star ARF however; it is difficult to see in the air. The problem could be easily fixed by making the top and bottoms of the wings have better contrast, but I have not done that yet. Good luck.

I want to thank everyone for their input. I've been planing on starting a kit in Sept for a while now. This is to be a father/son thing. My son originally wanted to build the Top Flight .60 P-47. After my experience with my Cub I think I could still build a great P-47, but wouldn't be able to fly it. I need to talk to my son when he gets back from vacation and talk him into the 4*. I think I'll probably go with the 60 size, and get a new engine that will give me enough performance.

Oh, just to clear up what happened when I flew the Cub. Nice clear day, but with a lot of big fluffy clouds. Every time I lost orientation on the plane I was high altitude (3 mistakes high), with the clouds in the background. I didn't loose sight of the plane, but didn't realize I was continuing the roll till I was inverted. My instructor also was loosing orientation too and didn't realize I was inverted either till the plane started descending. I do plan on re-thinking the design on the top of the wing to give better definition between the top and the bottom.

I may have gotten a little ahead of myself with the Cub, but I do try to push myself a little so I keep improving, but I think I'll push my self with my LT-40 for a while, then the 4*. When I get the 4* I'll start a thread with pics to show my son's and my progress

Be sure to look at the 4* 60 thread that is currently posted for some good ideas and then have a good time building with your son. Above all, keep on flying and practicing.

onlyb, I would not consider asking for help as swallowing your pride, it seems like the smart thing to do.
You said you liked building, so I am going to toss this out as a possible alternative to the 4 Star, how about an Astro Hog ?
It is a very cool looking airplane (I think it has a lot more character than the 4 Star), it flies great, it does not self correct (it goes where you point it), it is capable of most aerobatics, and I know for a fact that the OS 70 will be a great engine for it. You will be able to pull through big loops, you will not be able to fly straight up.
If you decide to go this route I would recommend moving the landing gear to the fuselage just like the 4 Star setup or to really beef up the ribs in the wing where the landing gear block is installed.

i would say 60 more power