I'd like to hear the other side of the story!!!!!

NO AMA does not insure crashes of this type.... ENJOY !!! RED

I would think most instructors would try to cover themselves by saying before hand that if the plane were to crash, i'm not responsible.

I think it's sad that 3 planes would crash in a day and with the planes being proven trainer type planes. These guys shouldn't be training anybody.

I agree with Ken. Any instructor worth their salt, would not have allowed themselves to be distracted by a crashing model, whether it was on a maiden or it's "umpteenth" flight.

We seem to have tree types of instructors, those who are, think they are and wish they were. Our club has one main reliable instructor
There is another which is one reason i am a bit estranged from the club. If you see any pilot rack up a fair amount of crashes, mishaps, bad landings or constently performing some form of minor to major damage on his own planes or others, that person should not be teaching others to fly.

Then we have guys who show up to teach their buddies, that does not last long either. From what I have seen most of the crashes whether minor or major are the fault of the so called self proclaimed instructor and he should pay for the damage

I've instructed a few times and no matter what happens to other planes in the air, it never has distracted me. I would never take a maiden without a complete inspection and taxi runs. I wouldn't test anyones plane with more than one plane other than me,in the air just in case some thing goes wrong or doesn't trim right. It's all in the building of the plane as well. If it looks solid and balances right, I would have no problem testing someones plane for them. If these are true "intructors" they should at least assist in the rebuild or replacement of these planes. At most fields I have been at, there is always a surplus of so-called "instructors" that love to dictate how you should fly. If it were me, I would watch first before I just hand over my new plane someone. Even if they say they are an instructor.
I remember once when I was fairly new to the hobby. I was flying a Lanier Dart and had lost an Airleron linkage in flight. There was maybe 2 other planes in the air and I called out that I had lost some airleron control. I climbed as well as I could, and the other planes landed safely. One of the local "know-it-alls" comes running up telling me to give him control. I told him nicely that I have it and will be down as soon as I can. He insisted he take the controls or I would be spending the rest of the weekend repairing my plane. I asked him to kindly step away from me as he was now the distraction. All watched as I made jerky yet controlled orbits of the field until I finally got her down without incident. On the next flight he planted his dragon lady and faulted a "hit" as the cause.[:'(] AHH, the always mysterious hit when the most arrogant pilot goes in. The point I am making to the new joins to the hobby is, if you hadn't watched your test pilot fly a few times, don't let him take up your 2-3 hundred dollor investment. Also, I would avoid the "know-it-alls" as potential test pilot candidates. A good responsible pilot doesn't need to have that much attention. Remember Chuck Yeager?

Interesting, emotional & provocative thread. As a CFI, I have my own thoughts on the subject.

First -- we have heard the story through the eyes of a student, rather than from any of the instructors. Students are invariably emotionally attached to their models (& hard-earned money) -- plus they are not very skilled at disecting the anatomy of a crash, so the spotlight falls on the instructor as a/the cause. Sometimes the instructror is indeed a contributor, but not usually -- more often the instructor is just along for the ride & doing his/her best to stave off the inevitable. I suspect that was the case with the LT-40. Either the student lost it at a very low altitude, leaving no time for the instructor to make a save, or there was something fatally wrong with the aircraft.

I have real problems with the instructors losing track of their respective aircraft & ending up trying to fly someone else's model. It is entirely possible that the instructors did look away & were unable to re-locate their respective models, but maybe not. If this is the actual case, the instructors were truly negligent, but I would really like to hear what the involved instructors have to say. One of the primary rules that students are taught is KEEP YOUR EYES ON YOUR AIRCRAFT AT ALL TIMES -- instructors know this very well. Other than the LT-40 & Superstar, the models really don't look alike (not to mention differences in size & colouration) & the LT-40 was gone first, leaving the dissimilar NexStar & Superstar aloft. What really happened?

Next -- the argument for repair/replacement. I routinely tell students that the instructors assume no liability for repair/replacement of models. These folks are volunteers, giving their time, & in many cases their own money, to the cause of teaching folks to fly. They can't be held liable for accidents, although they sometimes make mistakes -- that is part of the risk in learning & I tell the students exactly that.

Having said that, I recently re-built a student's model after I took off with the antenna down. My fault entirely (I have about a dozen valid excuses, but the truth is that I screwed up). I felt very bad about it & the student has absolutely no modelling skills, so I fixed the model myself. However, that kind of reparation arrangement is entirely between the student & the particular instructor, not the result of any written, or un-written rule. The bottom line is that the student assumes the risk & it can't be any other way -- or there just won't be anyone willing to instruct.


Related to this whole thing is instructor competence. As the CFI, I personally evaluate & test all of the prospective instructors in our club & I suspect that most clubs have a similar arrangement. Not all of the volunteers pass the test, & it isn't just flying ability that counts. Sometimes they are truly good pilots, but are crummy instructors. There are sometimes hurt feelings -- these people are all close friends & rejection as an instructor is embarrasing. There is also the working relationship between instructor & student -- some folks "click" & some don't. I am not upset if a particular student doesn't want me as an instructor -- maybe we just don't work well together.

The point of all of this blather is that the cause of the cluster dump isn't unequivocally known & the instructors may be getting a bad rap. In any case, the risk is assumed by the student. Sounds cold, but there it is.

This might come out of left field BUT - I just finished teaching a teenager to fly this summer and it went like this:

1st - I used a few of my old trusty trainers and equipment (MY OWN). I think this does several things - it relaxes the student when it isn't his pride and joythat's going to get wrecked. I told him if we crash it I don't care ! Its old, doesn't owe me a cent and I've got alot of other better equipment. You're gonna crash so don't worry. Turns out I hit the tree first and we both laughed.

2nd - I tried to take him out when there was no one around. The key is practice! He got a ton of flying in in a short time and didn't have to worry about what all the other less understanding people were thinking. Also if we really screw up there's less around to damage. You really can't develop a new skill if you only get two flights a week. You have to be committed to the student.

3rd - I made sure when he was ready that he flew with other planes in the air. I think that's important . You have to get use to the noise and distraction and make sure that his field etiqette is up to snuf.

4th - BUDDY BOX - don't leave home with out one !!!! It relaxes the student when you say don't worry at first - if you get into trouble I'll pull it out - no sweat. RELAX!!!!!

I've seen alot of nasty near misses over the years that could have easily been avoided. I teach high school for a living and although people still say "what an easy job" I believe that there is a real skill involved in teaching anyone, not just the passing along of knowledge. The secret - put yourself in their shoes and keep it simple. One step at a time and make it fun.

Oh right. The very first thing you tell them is - NEVER take your eyes off of YOUR airplane. NEVER. Even for a split second and you'll lose orientation and good by plane. SAFETY of others first.

My experience with training was somewhat different. I brought my plane to a local field. After the safety inspector checked it out.. they found that I didn't put the rubber grommets in the servos (hey I was 14 and the only other plane I had built was the little balsa spar, tissue paper covered variety.. flew great with a big rubber band) so there was no flying it. They shuttled me over to a trainer using his own plane and handed me a buddy box. After a few brief instructions we were airborne doing very high, slow, left hand circles. I took to it very easily (all those years of video games and rc cars paying off) and the instructor commented on how well I was doing and asked if I was sure it was my first time.. So anyway, made the turn for the upwind leg and caught a gust that increased the bank to about 85 degrees and right when I was about to correct it he pulled control away from me for the first time and overreacted, scared himself and dropped his tx. it went straight down at about 3/4 throttle. When others on the flight line asked what happened.. he blamed ME! My dad who was with me (I couldn't drive yet) offered to pay for the plane. He mulled it over but declined.. anyway, as soon as I was able to solo I never went back to that field.

Classic! but sad. Come to think of it, I never had anyone test fly any of my planes before. (Self taught) Not the recommended way to do things I know. I was young and stubborn but the Sturdy Birdy served me well. I was leary after visiting a local club and noticed the overflowing arrogance. So off I went to friends house who had a corn field next door and the rest is history. I eventually became a member of the said local flying club and everything worked out for the best. Our best instructor was an 80 year old man named George . He would come to the field and just sit in his lawn chair and fly most of the day and pass on useful knowledge and help you through confusion, repairs and nervousness. A true hero of the hobby if there is such a thing. Every time I fly I think about the things he taught me. God bless him he passed away a few years ago. Our club had so much inner rivalry that the club eventually seperated and it was like congress try to see who would go to which club. I just stayed with the original field as I knew the owner and that is where George was. To all the new joins that join the club, keep out of the politics and just enjoy the Hobby.

gsygt414 - that's amazing. That is EXACTLY how I learned. I mean exactly. The local club was full of people who, everytime you tried to visit the field and get help or show an interest, treated you as though you were trespassing and certainly not a member of the elite. The instructor I had all of two times put my plane into a tree. NICE>

Anyway I gave up on them and went to a friends field and spent three very happy years flying by myself. I became very good at hand launches and deadsticks (to save props)

I now fly at a small club with someone very similar to George at your field. He flies a couple of times and then spends the rest of the day helping others and passing along a wealth of info. I think I'd like to end up like that.

COOLBEAN - I can't believe the instructor tried to blame the kid!!!!!! Jjeezzz what a jerk.

I am new to this hobby and have only been flying for a few months, but I can't resist interjecting here. I am just learning and am still flying with an instructor, a very good one I might add, but I had to learn the hard way how important a good instructor is. The first plane I built was a LT-40, I read the instructions , bought a $200.00 computer game ,and being hardheaded, believed I could teach myself to fly. This plane lasted 2 flights before a bad crash, it was a complete loss. But, no this was not good enough to teach me so I built another LT-40 and of course had similar results, but this time it was repairable.

After this I contacted a local club ( I say local, but it's 35 miles away) and asked them to help me find an instructor. They arranged for me to meet the instructor, and I am now very close to soloing. This instructor is a retired gentleman who takes away from his own flying time to help me. He had never meet me before I called the club, and the only thing he asked was that I join the club. The point of this is to say that my instructor has saved my plane several time, and that if I was not flying with him I would surly have crashed it by now. If I were to crash tomorrow, and if it was totally his fault, I would never try to hold him responsible, because without him I would have surly destroyed it long ago.

I for one am very grateful for my instructor, and we all should realize how difficult it would be to get into this hobby without help.

WELL STATED doakes !!!!!! ENJOY !!! RED

well put britbrat,i had several instructors due to the times they could come to the field to teach,and i did do better with some than others ,there is a click.when i first started in RC airplanes the instructor was charging 20 an hour and that was in 1975 he used his own airplane and an hour was what it took to refuel charge change battery's whatever the case that amounted to about 35 minutes of actual flight time.we have a strict test for cfi at my field,i imagine most clubs do or should.it is hard to lose an airplane no matter the cause,i do sympathies with anyone that has an accident,but that is a risk we take every time we lift the wheels off the ground.

It is very hard when you lose a plane, Seems to be more so when an
instructor is flying it... But it's a hard call to make an unpaid helping
instructor replace the plane IMO... As we all know, " Sh_t happens"
to the best of us.. And I would think these occurrence are at a
minimum.. That said...
Most will help in repair and some will help or replace the lost... But
really IMO It's just part of the Hobby....

I think that the if the instructors were that easily distracted and got disoriented that easy i wouldn't want one of them teaching me. i saved money a long time for my first plane I mean don't get me worng i realise that all those guys are volunteers but also we are letting you take our pride and joy up in the air and unless there was something wrong with the plane that made it not safe to fly ( in which case it should have been caught in the pre-flight) then i would be pretty upset because as so many people have said on here before NEVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE PLANE!!! You can find out what happened to the other persons plane when yours is back on the ground. However on the topics of clubs i live 1 1/2 hours away from the nearest club and with my families situation i can't get away ( wife recovering from a major surgury and 2 small kids) the one instructor drove out to my farm and got me going. He was a retired gentlman and i thought that for him to take a Sat off and spend three hours driving and the rest of the day teaching me to fly was above and beyond the call of duty. So for all the arogant and "know it all's" there are there are also guys like Art who just love to fly and will do anything to help out a newbie. He calls me probably every couple of weeks to see how i am doing and even tho i haven't been able to make it to the club yet i have paid my membership fees and can't wait to get there for the first time. It will be different sharing the sky tho.

Geoff Bedard (from the super flat province of Saskatchewan)

There seems to be a lot of stuff turning up here about "arrogant know-it-alls" & such. I must live in a different world from you guys. I have seldom encountered those types in my modelling experiences, particularly in the case of those generous folks who teach others to fly. Most modellers, & essentially all of the instructors that I have known, have invariably been helping hands, not arrogant know-it-alls.

I'm beginning to wonder about the sensitive souls who seem to encounter the arrogant types. Could there be some personal insecurity at work there? --- Or even some personally unrecognized arrogance on the part of the hard-done-by students? I have certainly met a number of "students" (I use the term loosely) who didn't want to listen to advice from instructors &/or experienced modellers. I've even met a few who continually offered their own insight & knowledge to their instructors. Some of these guys were so good that they "taught" themselves how to "fly" --- they didn't need no stinkin' instructors.

The trash can was a good source of spare parts for the rest of us.

When I was in training 3 years ago, we had 4 planes on buddy boxes flying at the same time! 3 of them were Hobbico SuperStar 40's! Talk about maintaining concentration!

As has been said already, if the instructor is in control of the plane and he screws up, he should replace the plane. If a person is not willing to do this, he shouldn't be instructing.
Nope, they shouldn't be.

Oh man I feel sorry for both the new guys that have lost their planes and I aslo feel sorry for the instructors they must feel awful. I have never had to worry about other planes in the air as I used to fly at a private field and their was only ever 3 of us that used the field. Unfortunately my friend and old instructor that owned the field lost his fight against prostate cancer last year.
here is a picture of the field they were the good old days. the runway is that B shaped area. so much open space and the freedom to fly where we wanted.

Well at my club you have to sign a release before you can get free instruction. I guess it helps avoid all the fuzz, students know from the get go that the purpose is safety and instruction but in the event of a mishap (not that the instructor will have one intentionally) you are on your own. It doesn't bother me there is always the paid instruction option. I chose to sign the waiver

We had a guy here who quit the local club because they would not let him be an instructor. Their only reason was that he has stuff more than 30 120 size planes over the last 4 years (seriously).

There are instructors and those who think they are. They should be held acountable. Its to easy to blame the equipment for their own stupidity. Landing a deadstick trainer can be done by a moron. No excuse to stuff a trainer.

Things are a bit different in the electric foam world. If you crash that type of plane a lot of times u can just glue it back together.

I'm sure in someone's mind it would seem to take away from the look of the plane and they might demand a new kit. Even though the plane would be perfectly flyable and look near new with repairs. A lot of gray areas when you get into liability.

With so many different kits out there with a wide range of quality, there is no way to insure each plane has the capability to fly on the first attempt.

Well first of all I must say that this was obviously a tragic mess! I don't think anything RcKen had to say was either harsh or arrogant. Now I'm no instructor & have just recently soloed myself. While I don't feel like we should try to hold instructors liable for the replacement of our planes even if it is apparrent that it was totally his fault, because if we open up that can of worms soon there will be no-one left willing to teach us newbies to fly. Having said that, if I were ever to become an instructor & wrecked some poor kid's plane through my own negligence, I would have to buy him a new one. I just wouldn't be able to sleep at nite unless I did what I feel is the right thing.

Now as far as the NexStar, Hobbico has that guarantee that you will learn to fly on the NexStar or they will replace it for you. It requires a written statement by both the student & a qualified instructor. So that may be one avenue to try for the kid with the brand new NexStar. I don't know how Hobbico would re-act to that scenario, but he certainly has nothing to lose by trying.

The other thing I wanted to bring up is that this might be a good situation for our PIF program to shine on. Of course that would be up to Bubba's discretion. However, if these instructors, & I feel I'm using the term pretty freely in the case of these three, don't make some kind of an effort to get these unfortunate guys back up in the air, then why don't we see what we can do. We are allways preaching to the new guys " GET AN INSTRUCTOR" well they did & it bit them in the butt! Personally I don't feel like any of those three were qualified to be an instructor if all it took was one plane being planted to screw all of them up, but that's just my opinion.

Someone mentioned that they would like to hear both sides of this story & I would too. I also hope that you will keep us posted on the final outcome of this ordeal. Because I think these guys deserve another shot at learning to fly, & if the instructors/club doesn't get it done maybe we can thru PIF. So please keep us informed, & thank you for bringing this story to our attention.


Mark

Well, in our field, only 4 planes are allowed to be up at one time. I agree with Ken that if you lose control of you plane because you didnt, or lost sight of it, thats a horrible mistake, and i hope those instructors have enough common sense to pay for their mistake. ITs acutally really hard to lose sight of your plane while in the air. I never take my eyes of my plane, and i was really tempted at times. Once, during my training, after my solo, i was flying around and my instructor took up another kids trainer which was the same as mine, and i was abit nervous at that time, but nothing bad happened. TO sum it all up, i am very angry myself at how bad these instructors were. ITs a shame. I think this problem should be resolved as quickly as possible.

I don't know about as quickly as possible since it was first reported on 8/28/05 by TonyL1 and we have not heard about the outcome/follow-up from him since[8D] In one post he mentioned something about gathering more info on his next visit to the field, but we all get bz

I do hope this story had a happy ending, specially for the kid with his new hot NexStar, it's just a gentleman thing to do