MikeEast,

I don't think there's any such thing as an "AMA Instructor". Clubs appoint competent pilots as instructors to help novices.

skymortar,

True, this hobby should be fun. It can also be profitible, but it doesn't have to be. However, a participant doesn't have to LOSE money doing it, either.

Bottom line is: If they can't reach an agreement; the student doesn't have to use that particular instructor, and the instructor doesn't have to teach that particular student. They can go their separate ways - no harm, no foul.

Dr.1

"I will provide private instruction at other scheduled times at the rate of $15 an hour if someone desires."
This is an announcement from my most recent club newsletter I recieved last night. It also says that tuesday is our new "Training Night" for FREE instruction. It says to come out to the field if you would like to help with instruction or preflight inspection. Now, we also do FREE instruction at other times when an instructer happens to be there. But PRIVATE instruction (as in calling the instructer and scheduling a time) costs $15 an hour. So I support, at this time, both sides of the argument.
Karter

Wow so one minded people just to some to insult the trainer. If he is on a budget and read this I bet he would really be embarrassed. Some fields are not as fancy and uppity as yours with all this good talent around and lots of free time and money. If you asked a special request which read “it was� a little gas money is very generous on his part. This is America here not warefare on his part. If my instructor asked for gas money when I asked for a non standard day I would not hesitate if I liked his training. IF it’s the fact he’s is low on cash it’s tough to be broke and it sounds like some of you don’t know how that feels. Rich

Ricky,

I wasn't there, didn't hear the exchange between you and your instructor, and I'm not going to comment on "how much" or whether you pay for some gasoline.

I will comment on the differences between instructors, and I will say that instructors must set their own limits.

Where I fly, I'm one of two willing instructors. We each have our own methods, and they are not identical. Up until this year I would drop everything and begin an instruction session whenever a student arrived - and I would do instruction to the exclusion of flying my own planes. The other instructor prefers to alternate flying his own and teaching.

This year I set some limits. Now I am available Mondays and Wednesdays. I will provide instruction to the exclusion of flying my own, on those days, and will not be available for instruction on other days.

If you check some threads where instructors compare notes about students, you will find that some instructors feel a certain imposition is placed upon them. For that reason some instructors choose only certain days to provide instruction, or insist on specific methods. There is no universally approved or AMA endorsed training day, training method, or even a suggested procedure. Each instructor must figure out what works for them. Often, that is a work in progress, and changes from year to year.

In the same fashion, you must decide what works for you. If asking here "How much should I pay for gas money?" does not provide an answer that you like, I'm not surprised. Nor am I surprised that other posts are contentious. This is not a procedure for which a "Best Practices" manual is published, and if I wrote mine I suspect they would draw criticism.

The ball's in your court. What's the rest of your story?

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

I am a newbie. I was curious on this topic. Although not a clear cut answer.......everyones comments helped me understand or align my expectations. Thanks!

I would agree with Richrd. If I liked my instructors teaching (I don't have an "official" instructor yet), and I was asking him to be at the field outside of his normal times, I'd willingly pay for his gas money to be there. I'm the one benefitting from it, and I personally think it would be rude of me to expect a person who is volunteering to teach me to conform to my schedule at their expense. If its outside his normal time to be at the field, I say yes, volunteer to help offset his costs in training you. All good relationships are reciprocal, you both give a little.

What puzzled me about the OP was the fact that he was being instructed on the weekends in the first place. Isn't that "busy time" at the field? It must increase the stress level of the students. I guess the club doesn't have any instructors that teach during the week, or a designated training night.

Cheers,
Graham

Ken, for me its not heated. Its just discussion, lol.

DR1Driver, Yes, there are AMA introductory instructors. Not all instructors are AMA introductory instructors but all are representatives of an "non profit organization" AMA club. Any proceeds gained by club activities can only be used to better the club they cannot be used to put money in anyones pocket for ANY reason lest they lose their non profit organization status.




Regarding instructors...
This is straight off of the AMA website

AMA Introductory Pilot Program
(Applies to all categories of model flying — RC, CL, and FF)

Please Note: This program is not intended to alter or replace any instructor program offered by AMA chartered clubs for their AMA members. This program is intended to introduce the non-AMA member to aeromodeling while providing liability insurance coverage to the non-AMA member and the chartered club. This program is optional.

A non-AMA member may fly at a chartered club site and receive member liability insurance protection as long as he/she is flying under the direct supervision of a club-designated Introductory Pilot Instructor. The Introductory Pilot Instructor must hold a current AMA open membership with the “Intro Pilot� classification. Supervised instruction must take place at an AMA chartered club’s site, and must be closely supervised. The non-AMA member will have the same liability insurance coverage that other AMA members receive, solely while under the direct, one-on-one supervision of the Intro Pilot Instructor, for a period of 60 consecutive days starting from the first session. No other AMA benefits are provided to the non-AMA member.

Participation in this program is on a one-time basis only. This program covers assisting new modelers through education and training activities only, and does not constitute permission to fly in any organized event of AMA members or clubs, sanctioned or otherwise. No AMA card will be issued to the non-AMA member during the 60 day introduction period.

If the non-AMA member’s model is used, it should be carefully checked and the Intro Pilot Instructor should fly it until familiar with it. High performance aircraft should not be used for training. For radio control clubs, if the non-members radio is “buddy-box� ready, its use is recommended.

The restriction of the number of Intro Pilot Instructors per club has been removed. Chartered clubs are requested to have a reasonable number of Open AMA members as Intro Pilot Instructors each year. AMA HQ will verify that all designees are current Open members. There is a $5 per pilot administrative fee in addition to the Open member’s annual dues. A club officer must complete the Introductory Pilot Instructor Designation form and submit it to AMA HQ, either online, by fax, or through US Mail. An Intro Pilot Instructor may work with more than one chartered club.
All record keeping is the responsibility of the chartered club and its designated Intro Pilot Instructors. Using forms provided by AMA, clubs shall establish and maintain up-to-date records showing date of enrollment and date of termination for each non-AMA member enrolled in the program. Neither the club nor the Intro Pilot Instructor is permitted to charge any training fees. The granting, duration, and revocation of Intro Pilot Instructor status is at the sole discretion of the chartered club.

The Intro Pilot Instructor must instruct the non-AMA member in club-related site safety rules. Each non-AMA member must be given a copy of the AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code, and a copy of this document. In addition, the non-member should be provided with the “Welcome to Aeromodeling� package, provided to clubs by AMA, along with any other introductory material the club feels is appropriate.

Policy limits for model aircraft are $2,500,000 per occurrence involving bodily injury and/or property damage. This coverage is provided as “excess� to other applicable coverage the non-AMA member, club or Intro Pilot Instructor may have including homeowners insurance. The $250 property damage claim deductible is waived by AMA and is not the responsibility of either the Introductory Pilot Instructor or the non-AMA member trainee during this training period. No liability protection is provided to the non-AMA member when flying away from the chartered club site, with or without the Intro Pilot Instructor. Neither AMA, the chartered club, nor the Intro Pilot Instructor shall be liable for any damage to a non-AMA member’s aircraft.

A report to AMA HQ of any incident is the responsibility of the Intro Pilot Instructor and the chartered club. A telephone report by the close of business the following business day, followed by a written report, is required.

Clubs are encouraged to develop and implement their own formal training program. Contact AMA for information, suggestions, and samples of programs being used by other clubs.

Summary of Introductory Pilot Program
Instructions for Clubs and Pilots

Clubs:
1. The Intro Pilot Instructor designees must be current Open members of AMA and should be experienced instructors.
2. Fill out Form #1, the Intro Pilot Instructor Designation form. It must be signed by a club officer.
3. Submit the form to AMA with the appropriate fees: $5.00 for each Intro Pilot Instructor designated by your club.
4. When the Designation Form is processed, the Intro Pilot Instructor will receive a supply of Trainee Registration Forms. Xerox copies are acceptable, you can request more copies from AMA HQ, or they are available for download from the AMA Website at http://www.modelaircraft.org.
5. As your Intro Pilot Instructors sign up students, keep copies of their Trainee Registration Forms in the club’s files.
6. Official Introductory Pilot Program rules and regulations should be kept on hand by each Club, and every Intro Pilot Instructor should be familiar with the rules.

Intro Pilot Instructors:
1. Once you’ve been designated as one of your club’s Intro Pilot Instructors, you need to have a supply of the Trainee Pilot Registration Form. You should also have a supply of the “Welcome to Aeromodeling� package provided by AMA. These can be requested from AMA HQ.
2. Have your trainee fill out the Trainee Pilot Registration Form #2.
3. Send the Registration Form to AMA HQ. The forms can be mailed, faxed to (765) 741-0057 or submitted online. It’s important for the Trainee Registration Form to be submitted to AMA HQ within 48 hours of the trainee’s first flight.
4. Give each trainee copies of the AMA “Welcome to Aeromodeling� package and official Introductory Pilot Program rules and requirements.
5. Proceed as usual with your program of flight instruction. The trainee is covered under the AMA’s liability insurance policy, as long as he/she is flying at the club site under your direct, one-on-one supervision, for a period of 30 60 days from the first session.
6. If there is an incident that may involve a claim on the AMA’s insurance policy, it is the responsibility of the Intro Pilot Instructor and/or club officers to make a telephone report to AMA HQ by the close of business the following business day. A follow up written report is also required.

Questions?
Call AMA HQ between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Eastern Standard time, Monday through Friday. Ask for the Club Secretary, (765) 287-1256; Fax (765) 741-0057; E-mail [email protected].


Introductory Pilot Program Designation Form
Form #1 — For Club Use

Chartered Club name ____________________________________ Club No.__________
Name of Officer completing form______________________________ AMA # _______
Address __________________________________________________ ______________

Introductory Pilot Instructors must be Open AMA Members. There is a $5.00 fee for each AMA Open member named as an Introductory Pilot Instructor. Intro Pilot Instructor information will be posted on the Web site. A new AMA membership card will be issued denoting the “Intro Pilot� status of the member. If you have already applied for or received a current year’s membership card, an additional card will be mailed to you.
Please complete this form and return it with the appropriate fees. For additional information, call the Club Secretary in the Membership Department at AMA HQ, (765) 287-1256.

Designated Introductory Pilot Instructor AMA No. 2006 Intro Pilot Fee
1. _________________________________ _____________ ________________
E-mail: __________________________________________________ _____________
2. _________________________________ _____________ ________________
E-mail: __________________________________________________ _____________
3. _________________________________ _____________ ________________
E-mail: __________________________________________________ _____________
Total enclosed _______________

Note: Holding the IP position gives consent to publish E-mail and/or telephone number on behalf of his or her club.

Club Officer Name _______________________________ AMA No. _______________
Club Officer Signature _____________________________Date: _________________

Note: If additional space is needed use the reverse side.
HQ USE ONLY

Date Processed _____________________

Form of Payment/Amount Enclosed ___________________

If ether one needs money that bad or are that short of cash they are in the wrong Hobby This hobby is not cheep and don't look for a free ride all it will do is cause hard feelings[&o]

** Mike edited his post and removed the litigation bit, so I'll remove my response. This may see a little out of context now. ***

*** Comment about whether the instructor asked for money for fuel, or said they couldn't afford the fuel to drive out there, and money was offered ***

You're right, it is semantics, and like you said, you can't say that isn't exactly how the conversation occured. Either way, if I could get instruction at set times that worked well for me, and all my instructor wanted was a little help paying for the fuel to get there, I'd be happy. Pump price for regular gasoline here right now is 1.29/litre, so that works out to $5.16/gal... with exchange... just under $4US/gal. It's only fair if the sole reason he's burning fuel is to come and teach me.

I know its a "tradition", but at some point it becomes a case of thinking to yourself, "This guy is saving me hundreds in repair/replacement costs, maybe I should help him out with his costs.", or even "Am I taking advantage of this guy trying to help me?". This debate will probably never be settled. I firmly agree that instructors shouldn't be asking for money to make a buck, but I just as firmly agree that their volunteer work training new pilots shouldn't be costing them big bucks. Mind you, I have a feeling that the old gentleman who spent monday evening trimming out my Nexstar and standing beside me while I flew it might use some colorful language if I pulled out my wallet and offered him some money.

Cheers,
Graham

I agree 100%[8D] SHould the guy OFFER gas money... SURE! Should the instructor ask for it.... no way.



Oh heck, Im sorry... I didnt remove the "litigation comment" do it for any other reason than it was just getting too long... I will repost.

Case in point.
A few months ago my friend and fellow supervisor at work got a call from one of our employees stating that he had chest pains so my friend and coworker went over to help him. When he got there my friend, the pwersons supervisor insisted that he let him take him to the hospital.. The guy refused and said it was just indigestion. The good samaritan pushed and talked the guy into going to the hospital but the person more and more emphatically insisted that he was ok. ABout 1 mile from the hospital he wore my friend down and he turned around and brought him back to his worksite and after waiting around and trying to make sure he was ok.. He left him.
A little while later my friend the good samaritan got a call from on one the sick persons co workers, screaming that he had collapsed and was unconscious on the floor.
My friend went over and immediately began CPR and wept while doing so. The man was dead before he ever hit the floor.

Yesterday he get a certified letter from the mans wife suing him for repsonsibilty for the mans death. She is suing him becuase he was there... offering free help to a man that didnt want it and died. In our sue happy society imagine what could happen to a person who is being paid to help in a hobby where equipment is expensive and if mishandled could be deadly. Am I going to take any money even if I could? I dont think so.

I've instructed 3 student pilots and currently on my 4th. Never taken a dollar from anyone, even one of them who was a complete stranger to me. I've taken a lot friends up flying with the trainer, my plane and my fuel. After seeing a smile on their face and knowing they've enjoyed themselves is payment enough for me.

Good luck.

The fact that the instructor may live closer to the field than the student is irrelevant. He also never indicated exactly how much the instructor wanted to charge. Until he nails that down we are all really just speculating. A couple of dollars for gas is not unreasonable for going out on a night when you might otherwise be home building. If the fee is up in the "big profit" range, that would be another matter. I/we need more details. Myself, I live close enough to our field that I can run out there at the drop of a hat [sm=bananahead.gif] if I'm not otherwise involved. I don't burn a 1/2 gallon of gas on a round trip. But I do have a life away from the field too.


BTW - has anyone noticed that "rickybobby" is so involved that he hasn't even reposted in his own thread again?

Ricky.

My twin brother and I will help ya for "free" anytime you want.

Just look for us at the field next time you're there.

Yeah, I noticed. But its a good topic of discussion. [8D]

Since you reposted.

Ah.... what the heck did I say anyhow?

It was something to the effect that in Canada the Good Samaritans act prevents you from being sued if you attempt first aid on someone, as long as you are staying within the limits of your training. You can't get sued for trying to keep someone alive, even if your attempts are unsuccessful. I think its crass in the extreme to sue someone who performed CPR on your loved one in an attempt to save their life. I used to be a volunteer firefighter and ambulance attendant, and you feel bad enough when you can't keep someone alive. Having a lawsuit slapped on you, blaming you for their death would just be that much worse. And people wonder why someone would drive right by and accident scene and not stop to help. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to blame him for not forcing the guy to go to the hospital in the first place, even though you cannot force somone to accept medical treatment.

Ah well, back to the topic at hand....

Mike,

Ah yes, the AMA Intro program. Just a lot of officiousness and rules for what R/Cers have been doing for years.

Dr.q2

Having recently gone through some emergency training of this nature I can tell you that one thing the instructor emphasized is that "once you have taken it upon yourself to get involved, you stay involved until you are relieved by a responder of equal or superior qualifications". Your friend should have called an ambulance IMO and stayed with him until it arrived.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and I feel bad for all involved. There will be no winners except the lawyers.[&o]

Well, I know that what you say is absolutely true for CPR, I am CPR certified.

BUT this guy said he had indigestion and clearly thought he had gotten over it and just wanted to go home. He was coherent, feeling great and just wanted to go back to work...


I have been though similar situations WITH an ambulance THERE and with the Paramedics working with a guy. I tried to FORCE the guy to stay on the gourney and go with the Ambulance, told the paramedics to just ignore him and take him to the hospital.... They refused and said that they (nor I ) had any right to take a person to the hospital by force if they are conscious, coherent and exhibiting general well being. This guy had passed out and possibly broken his ankle when he collapsed and they would not let me force him to go becuase he was awake and knew who, where he was. They were leaving, I looked up his home phone and quickly called his wife at home and told her what was going on. She got on the phone and tore his ass up and he complied and went to the hospital in the ambulance... The paramedics told me that we could all face legal action if we took him into the emergency room against his will..... Its really a no win situation...

One last point and then I will also let this go. If the ambulance crew had come they could have hooked him up to an AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) and it may have shown him that he required further help or not. then after he declined treatment by the ambulance crew all liability issues would have been moot IMO. If he later went to perform CPR on the man he should be protected by the Good Samaritan laws as long as he was properly trained in CPR. If not qualified, then he may be held liable.

I'm done and now return this thread to model airplaning.

that site is for profesional aerobatic training not first time student training.

correct redfox..

To which one can only retort, your comprehension is as accomplished as your grammar. [sm=sunsmiley.gif]

BZZZT....FAIL .....and you're instructing others???[sm=confused.gif]...........[sm=spinnyeyes.gif].....

OK so take offense and get personal, differing opinions is what make this world work[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

It's not a matter of "differing opinion", merely the pointing out or correction if you will, of an incorrect assertion by way analogous illustration with the obvious.