Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
06-16-2006, 11:16 PM
#27
RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
It does not, in fact, travel (with respect to the ground) in the direction it's pointed, but it has no tendency to turn. There are zero side forces on the plane.
If a plane is moving at 30mph with a right crosswind at 5mph, the plane drifts sideways at 5 mph
has no tendency to turn
The plane has to yaw. If you have equal crosswind blowing across the nose and the tail, the tail has what, about 3 times the surface area exposed to the crosswind and the vert stab/rudder is essentially a relatively giant flat plate versus a small curved fuse side,,,, which is going to be effected by the crosswind more? Think of it like, well a weather vane. It points itself into the wind everytime the wind blows against its side. It doenst care about relative groundspeed, only the relative pressure differences on each side which is ultimately what steers an airplane too (in addition to the thrust adjustment bult into the engine mount.
If you put 2 fans, 1 blowing straight ahead on a weather vane at 20mph and one blowing directly sideways at 20mph, which way would it go? would it ignore the one blowing from the side, ignore the one blowing from the front or end up somewhere in between? It would have to be somewhere in between because the side force is inevitably going to have more effect because it is blowing against a larger surface area, and the straight ahead wind is effecting both sides of the weathervanes rudder. That means that 1 side of the weather vanes rudder is getting 1/2 of the straight on force+ the force from the crosswind. Once it slightly turns as the crosswind has an effect, then the wind coming from the front starts to blow back against the other side of the tail and somewhere they are going to equalize,,, UNLESS there is a sudden increase from either source of air movement.
Im going to have to test my theory at home and see what happens.
06-17-2006, 01:39 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Okay, last time, I swear.
Picture a flying plane pointing straight down the runway in a direct crosswind. The crosswind pushes the plane toward the edge of the runway, so it's track across the ground is at an angle to the runway. But as we said, the plane is pointing straight down the runway. So it's not moving in the direction it's pointing. It's crabbing.
Turn the plane slightly so it's pointing toward the windward edge of the runway, and it's track across the ground will now be straight down the runway. Land like that, and the wheels will want to continue in the direction they're pointing, off the runway, while the plane's inertia tries to keep it going straight down the centerline. Inertia usually wins, forcing the tires to turn the plane, and you've landed safely.
I think part of the confusion comes from our usual experience with running or riding a bike in a crosswind. In that case, we have shoes or tires that can act against the force of the crosswind, and we don't drift. So the wind isn't right in our face. It comes at us at an angle.
You can't compare a plane in the air to a weathervane. A weathervane has a way to resist the crosswind--the pole that attaches it to the ground. A plane in the air has no way to resist the crosswind. Yes, the wind does push the plane sideways, but it's sideways speed is constant--no acceleration. According to Newton, no acceleration means no force. No force acting on the plane means it continues in a straight line. At a crab angle.
That's the technical answer. The intuitive answer is that the plane is moving sideways at the same speed as the crosswind, and so to the plane, the air on either side of it is not moving sideways. No side wind means no side force.
I totally agree that a plane on the ground, because its c.p. is behind the c.g. will try to turn into the wind. But its tires are on the ground, resisting the wind. It's different in the air.
If you've ever flown in an open-cockpit full-scale, the wind is always in your face, even if you're crabbing 30 degrees across the ground. You know there's a crosswind because you can see it, but you can't feel it, and you don't have to hold any control inputs against it.
It might help if you figure all of this out for yourself, starting from the given fact that all of the above is correct. Just keep in mind that it's based on a steady, constant-velocity wind, something we don't usually see at the flying field.
Picture a flying plane pointing straight down the runway in a direct crosswind. The crosswind pushes the plane toward the edge of the runway, so it's track across the ground is at an angle to the runway. But as we said, the plane is pointing straight down the runway. So it's not moving in the direction it's pointing. It's crabbing.
Turn the plane slightly so it's pointing toward the windward edge of the runway, and it's track across the ground will now be straight down the runway. Land like that, and the wheels will want to continue in the direction they're pointing, off the runway, while the plane's inertia tries to keep it going straight down the centerline. Inertia usually wins, forcing the tires to turn the plane, and you've landed safely.
I think part of the confusion comes from our usual experience with running or riding a bike in a crosswind. In that case, we have shoes or tires that can act against the force of the crosswind, and we don't drift. So the wind isn't right in our face. It comes at us at an angle.
You can't compare a plane in the air to a weathervane. A weathervane has a way to resist the crosswind--the pole that attaches it to the ground. A plane in the air has no way to resist the crosswind. Yes, the wind does push the plane sideways, but it's sideways speed is constant--no acceleration. According to Newton, no acceleration means no force. No force acting on the plane means it continues in a straight line. At a crab angle.
That's the technical answer. The intuitive answer is that the plane is moving sideways at the same speed as the crosswind, and so to the plane, the air on either side of it is not moving sideways. No side wind means no side force.
I totally agree that a plane on the ground, because its c.p. is behind the c.g. will try to turn into the wind. But its tires are on the ground, resisting the wind. It's different in the air.
If you've ever flown in an open-cockpit full-scale, the wind is always in your face, even if you're crabbing 30 degrees across the ground. You know there's a crosswind because you can see it, but you can't feel it, and you don't have to hold any control inputs against it.
It might help if you figure all of this out for yourself, starting from the given fact that all of the above is correct. Just keep in mind that it's based on a steady, constant-velocity wind, something we don't usually see at the flying field.
06-17-2006, 02:01 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
as usual, right or wrong I'll still refer to the crabbing effect as weatherveining, My cub was weatherveining all morning today. varing 10-18 knot crosswind and the plane weatherveins on the yaw axis with the varying wind speed practically on it's own. it's allot of fun.
06-17-2006, 03:03 AM
#30
RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Yep, I understand all of that and understand the wind in your face thing..
But I also know what I have personally witnessed and experienced over thousands of flights. The airplane will yaw in a crosswind and fly with its nose pointed into the wind hands off of the rudder. It is maintaining the same bearing, but the nose is pointed somewhat into the wind and on a different heading. I fly pattern and have seen it happening hundreds of times while flying in a brisk crosswind. The plane is sliding out with the wind with its nose pointed slightly into the wind and yet generally traveling perpendicular to the flight line. You add a little rudder to exaggerate the yaw into the wind which allows you to overcome the crosswind. The bearing and desired heading are the same (staright down the field perpendicular to the flight line) but the planes actual heading, (where the nose is pointed) is more into the wind. I have a thousand flight experiences working in a crosswind, I'm not just shooting from the hip here.
However, I digress as apparently I am in direct defiance of the laws of physics and blaspheming against Albert Einstein.
But I also know what I have personally witnessed and experienced over thousands of flights. The airplane will yaw in a crosswind and fly with its nose pointed into the wind hands off of the rudder. It is maintaining the same bearing, but the nose is pointed somewhat into the wind and on a different heading. I fly pattern and have seen it happening hundreds of times while flying in a brisk crosswind. The plane is sliding out with the wind with its nose pointed slightly into the wind and yet generally traveling perpendicular to the flight line. You add a little rudder to exaggerate the yaw into the wind which allows you to overcome the crosswind. The bearing and desired heading are the same (staright down the field perpendicular to the flight line) but the planes actual heading, (where the nose is pointed) is more into the wind. I have a thousand flight experiences working in a crosswind, I'm not just shooting from the hip here.
However, I digress as apparently I am in direct defiance of the laws of physics and blaspheming against Albert Einstein.
06-17-2006, 11:22 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Yes, we're in total agreeement. The plane yaws into the wind. My only contention was that the aerodynamicists don't call it weathervaning because that implies a side force acting on the plane, when there isn't any. Call it a yaw or a crab and you'll get no arguments.
06-17-2006, 05:32 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Nickj, I agree fully with your postings.
A plane flying straight and level in a constant cross wind does not experiene any sideways forces
/Red B.
A plane flying straight and level in a constant cross wind does not experiene any sideways forces
/Red B.
06-17-2006, 10:37 PM
#34
RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
ORIGINAL: Red B.
Nickj, I agree fully with your postings.
A plane flying straight and level in a constant cross wind does not experiene any sideways forces
/Red B.
Nickj, I agree fully with your postings.
A plane flying straight and level in a constant cross wind does not experiene any sideways forces
/Red B.
OK, so lets say you are flying left to right (facing north and flying due east) on given latitude in a direct 15mph outgoing crosswind (crosswind blowing from south to north). Are you saying that no matter how far you fly on that east/west line, that you will stay on that same latitude and never get pushed to the north? If you will drift to the north then how can one say that there is no side force on the plane that is flying due east but being pushed to the north?
06-17-2006, 10:49 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
The idea there saying is like this. If you push a cart on a smooth flat (lets just make it simple and say frictionless) surface. The cart is no longer experiencing any force after you finish your push but let go, yet the cart continues moving. Without friction forever at the same speed. Better yet, put the cart on a very wide treadmill perpendicular to the motion (in a vacuum). Start the treadmill. After it and the cart has accellerated to speed, the cart no longer has a force applied but continues moving. So if the plane is drifting with the wind it's not experiencing any force. I believe that is what they're saying.
-John
-John
06-18-2006, 12:03 AM
#36
RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Yeah like a puc on an air hockey table.
Are you buying that? Am I all alone here?[8D]
There are 2 major moving forces at work on an airplane. Gravity and pressure differential. If course inertia/momentum are helping too. Gravity is not really all that much a part of this particular issue but pressure differential is.
Are you buying that? Am I all alone here?[8D]
There are 2 major moving forces at work on an airplane. Gravity and pressure differential. If course inertia/momentum are helping too. Gravity is not really all that much a part of this particular issue but pressure differential is.
06-18-2006, 03:02 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
[/quote]
OK, so lets say you are flying left to right (facing north and flying due east) on given latitude in a direct 15mph outgoing crosswind (crosswind blowing from south to north). Are you saying that no matter how far you fly on that east/west line, that you will stay on that same latitude and never get pushed to the north? If you will drift to the north then how can one say that there is no side force on the plane that is flying due east but being pushed to the north?
[/quote]
If I am flying east (maintaining a 90 deg compass heading) and there is a constant wind from the south, I will be drifting with the moving air mass towards the north. My course over ground will be somewhat less than 90 degress and the latitude will slowly increase (at a constant rate). However, drifting at a constant speed doesn't involve any sideways forces because I am drifting at a constant speed (constant speed = no net force).
In fact for an aircraft flying straight an level at constant speed, there is no net force acting. Thrust is equal and opposite to drag. Lift is equal and opposite to the force of gravity. Consequently there is no net force acting on the aircraft.
/Red B.
P.S. I am neglecting the effect the earth rotation will have on the moving air and the aircraft (the Coriolis force). It is absolutely insignificant for model aircraft, only becoming a factor of significance for long distance flight. D.S.
OK, so lets say you are flying left to right (facing north and flying due east) on given latitude in a direct 15mph outgoing crosswind (crosswind blowing from south to north). Are you saying that no matter how far you fly on that east/west line, that you will stay on that same latitude and never get pushed to the north? If you will drift to the north then how can one say that there is no side force on the plane that is flying due east but being pushed to the north?
[/quote]
If I am flying east (maintaining a 90 deg compass heading) and there is a constant wind from the south, I will be drifting with the moving air mass towards the north. My course over ground will be somewhat less than 90 degress and the latitude will slowly increase (at a constant rate). However, drifting at a constant speed doesn't involve any sideways forces because I am drifting at a constant speed (constant speed = no net force).
In fact for an aircraft flying straight an level at constant speed, there is no net force acting. Thrust is equal and opposite to drag. Lift is equal and opposite to the force of gravity. Consequently there is no net force acting on the aircraft.
/Red B.
P.S. I am neglecting the effect the earth rotation will have on the moving air and the aircraft (the Coriolis force). It is absolutely insignificant for model aircraft, only becoming a factor of significance for long distance flight. D.S.
06-18-2006, 04:15 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
striderjg has it exactly right. You push a shopping cart to accelerate it, but once it's up to speed you hardly have to push it anymore (just enough to overcome friction). Same thing for the plane. If it's drifting in the wind at a constant speed, the wind doesn't have to push it anymore. Yes, the wind is causing the plane to drift, but not by pushing on it.
The plane in Mike's example is crabbing, pointing east but flying northeast (because of the outgoing drift). To keep it from drifting north, you'd turn the plane slightly south. It'd still be crabbing, but now flying due east and pointing southeast.
The plane in Mike's example is crabbing, pointing east but flying northeast (because of the outgoing drift). To keep it from drifting north, you'd turn the plane slightly south. It'd still be crabbing, but now flying due east and pointing southeast.
06-18-2006, 05:31 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
The correct terms for these forces in a Naval context are SET and DRIFT. In a cross current situation, relative to the moving water, they don't mean a thing. This is similar to our airplanes. That is, if the point of reference is moving with the block of air, they are meaningless.
Now for our fixed frame of reference (the ground) it does make a difference, particularly when we are trying to fly a constant line (this is different that heading). Direction of travel is the course over the ground. Heading is the direction the plane is pointing (think compass heading).
If the wind is blowing, it can be broken into two components. The SET component is that component of the winds direction that is moving along the same direction as the plane HEADING. It makes the plane move faster or slower over the ground along the HEADING line. The other component of the cross wind acts at 90 degrees to the set, and is the DRIFT component. This component acts to move the plane at a 90 degree angle to the HEADING. Set and Drift describe the motion of the moving block of air the plane is flying in.
So what does this mean to us? Aerodynamically, its true the plane doesn't notice this, as long as we don't care where the plane goes. Obviously we DO care where the plane goes. Therefore, to adjust for set and drift (cross winds), we must alter the planes heading in order to correct the flight path. Hence the phenomenon known as CRABBING. This is the plane pointing sideways to the desired flight path (Not the wind). We can establish this angel and correct the travel by using the rudder to point the plane into the wind, and use the set and drift to bring the plane down the runway. Once the wheels touch the runway, the set and drift is removed from the equation, and we must point the plane down the runway.
Side slip is intentionally trying to fly the plane such that the direction of the wind over the wings is NOT the same as the heading. This will cause a loss of lift, and bring the plane down to the runway quicker, and also causes a more rapid loss of speed due to the additional drag of the fuselage into the wind. This is a skilled maneuver, requiring the pilot to closely coordinate rudder, ailerons, and elevator. Its not for the beginner.
The preceding discussion is based on a constant cross wind. Now for gusting winds. The plane has momemtum relative to the earth, space, etc. If the wind CHANGES, that momemtum is part of the equation, and cannot be ignored. A gust from the side or tail will cause the airspeed over the wing to reduce temporarily until the plane has been reestablished in normal flight for that wind. A gust from the tail is the worst, as a plane that is flying close to stall speed (as in approach) that is suddenly hit with a tail wind may lose lift, as the airspeed over the wing drops below stall speed.
The statement that a plane in flight doesn't feel the wind is only true for constant winds. Changing winds, also known as turbulence, can have a profound effect. (Ever had to wear your seatbelt all the way from Washington to San Francisco).
Brad
Now for our fixed frame of reference (the ground) it does make a difference, particularly when we are trying to fly a constant line (this is different that heading). Direction of travel is the course over the ground. Heading is the direction the plane is pointing (think compass heading).
If the wind is blowing, it can be broken into two components. The SET component is that component of the winds direction that is moving along the same direction as the plane HEADING. It makes the plane move faster or slower over the ground along the HEADING line. The other component of the cross wind acts at 90 degrees to the set, and is the DRIFT component. This component acts to move the plane at a 90 degree angle to the HEADING. Set and Drift describe the motion of the moving block of air the plane is flying in.
So what does this mean to us? Aerodynamically, its true the plane doesn't notice this, as long as we don't care where the plane goes. Obviously we DO care where the plane goes. Therefore, to adjust for set and drift (cross winds), we must alter the planes heading in order to correct the flight path. Hence the phenomenon known as CRABBING. This is the plane pointing sideways to the desired flight path (Not the wind). We can establish this angel and correct the travel by using the rudder to point the plane into the wind, and use the set and drift to bring the plane down the runway. Once the wheels touch the runway, the set and drift is removed from the equation, and we must point the plane down the runway.
Side slip is intentionally trying to fly the plane such that the direction of the wind over the wings is NOT the same as the heading. This will cause a loss of lift, and bring the plane down to the runway quicker, and also causes a more rapid loss of speed due to the additional drag of the fuselage into the wind. This is a skilled maneuver, requiring the pilot to closely coordinate rudder, ailerons, and elevator. Its not for the beginner.
The preceding discussion is based on a constant cross wind. Now for gusting winds. The plane has momemtum relative to the earth, space, etc. If the wind CHANGES, that momemtum is part of the equation, and cannot be ignored. A gust from the side or tail will cause the airspeed over the wing to reduce temporarily until the plane has been reestablished in normal flight for that wind. A gust from the tail is the worst, as a plane that is flying close to stall speed (as in approach) that is suddenly hit with a tail wind may lose lift, as the airspeed over the wing drops below stall speed.
The statement that a plane in flight doesn't feel the wind is only true for constant winds. Changing winds, also known as turbulence, can have a profound effect. (Ever had to wear your seatbelt all the way from Washington to San Francisco).
Brad
06-18-2006, 08:49 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Actually this kinda reminds me of something I saw on a documentry at one point. Investigating a old crash trying to find the cause. this was back before aviation really new about the jet stream in one of the first aircraft able to cruise at altitude to be in it. In anycase, they surmised that the crash was caused by them going against the jet stream. There calculations show'd they should have been a lot futher along then they were (due to the head wind). The plane didn't care. There position over ground did. They descended thinking they're near there destination right into a mountain. Of course as has been stated it does matter to use on the ground (or in the plane for navigation), and gusting is a new bag of worms.
-John
-John
06-19-2006, 11:22 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
ok guys,
I'm not going to get in to the whole technical thing here, but.......
I live and fly in Scotland, therefore feel that i am an authority on flying in windy conditions :-)
Last time i was flying at Macrihanish (a small RAF base north west of Scotland) i was the only fool to brave the wind on the sunday. We reckon the wind was blowing at around 40+mph blowing west to east, i decided that the only model i would risk in that weather was my small .40 sized model which barely penetrated in that wind. Now, if i flew in to wind (west) at full throttle i had a ground speed of maybe 5mph if i was lucky, if i flew downwind (east) i had a ground speed of maybe 45 mph.
Anybody want to hazard a guess at what happened on the crosswind legs (north and south)???
I think everybody is getting mixed up between the track across the ground and the air, though it would be interesting to know what a compass heading for the model would say compared to the direction of travel.
Just my tuppence worth.
Zen.
I'm not going to get in to the whole technical thing here, but.......
I live and fly in Scotland, therefore feel that i am an authority on flying in windy conditions :-)
Last time i was flying at Macrihanish (a small RAF base north west of Scotland) i was the only fool to brave the wind on the sunday. We reckon the wind was blowing at around 40+mph blowing west to east, i decided that the only model i would risk in that weather was my small .40 sized model which barely penetrated in that wind. Now, if i flew in to wind (west) at full throttle i had a ground speed of maybe 5mph if i was lucky, if i flew downwind (east) i had a ground speed of maybe 45 mph.
Anybody want to hazard a guess at what happened on the crosswind legs (north and south)???
I think everybody is getting mixed up between the track across the ground and the air, though it would be interesting to know what a compass heading for the model would say compared to the direction of travel.
Just my tuppence worth.
Zen.
06-19-2006, 11:36 AM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
I think everybody is getting mixed up between the track across the ground and the air, though it would be interesting to know what a compass heading for the model would say compared to the direction of travel.
For those that are more mathematically inclined, its called "vector addition".
Brad
06-19-2006, 07:53 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Has anyone ever tried using a y harness and coupling the aileron and rudder together on the aileron channel. This is actually how most full scale planes operate.
06-19-2006, 08:19 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Um... that's not how full scale operate. In full scale the rudder is controlled by foot pedals and the ailerons by the yoke. IMHO coupling the rudder to the ailerons in that manner is a bad idea.
-John
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06-20-2006, 12:41 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Mike,
That video is awesome, i've seen it before, in fact that is the reason i found this thread in the first place, i was doing a search for that vid and came across this thread and got hooked in. Thanx for posting it.
Also, on the subject of aileron to rudder coupling, i actually use a mix similar to this, but i actually use OPPOSITE coupling with rudder as the master (left aileron to right rudder and vice versa). I find this useful for pattern type flying. If for example the model starts to track slightly off of the flight line, i can correct the track of the model back to the line i want without having to think about the secondary effect of roll on the model. It just keeps things a bit simpler for me. Also, i can complete a flat turn by using rudder only by using this mix. I find that in most other maneouvres, this mix has no real effect on the model since it is only about a 10% opposite mix.
No real relevance to this thread, just thought i'd pitch in.
Cheers, Zen
That video is awesome, i've seen it before, in fact that is the reason i found this thread in the first place, i was doing a search for that vid and came across this thread and got hooked in. Thanx for posting it.
Also, on the subject of aileron to rudder coupling, i actually use a mix similar to this, but i actually use OPPOSITE coupling with rudder as the master (left aileron to right rudder and vice versa). I find this useful for pattern type flying. If for example the model starts to track slightly off of the flight line, i can correct the track of the model back to the line i want without having to think about the secondary effect of roll on the model. It just keeps things a bit simpler for me. Also, i can complete a flat turn by using rudder only by using this mix. I find that in most other maneouvres, this mix has no real effect on the model since it is only about a 10% opposite mix.
No real relevance to this thread, just thought i'd pitch in.
Cheers, Zen
06-20-2006, 01:01 PM
#49
RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Zenedge,
That is a good mix to use. I have a very slight mix in my Genesis for adverse roll coupling. To me, once you have done all you can do to mechanically setup and adjust a plane to make it fly as neutral as the airframe will allow, you are only left with the bad tendencies of the airframe design itself. At that point any mix that you have to add to get the plane fly neutral is legitimate fair game. It cracks me up to see people write about taking pride in learning to fly through bad airframe tendencies, using "no mixes" and considering themselves "better pilots" because of it. Its like allowing the front end of your car to get out of line and driving with the car going down the road sideways, then claiming to be a "better driver" because you live with it. But thats a whole other discussion!
That is a good mix to use. I have a very slight mix in my Genesis for adverse roll coupling. To me, once you have done all you can do to mechanically setup and adjust a plane to make it fly as neutral as the airframe will allow, you are only left with the bad tendencies of the airframe design itself. At that point any mix that you have to add to get the plane fly neutral is legitimate fair game. It cracks me up to see people write about taking pride in learning to fly through bad airframe tendencies, using "no mixes" and considering themselves "better pilots" because of it. Its like allowing the front end of your car to get out of line and driving with the car going down the road sideways, then claiming to be a "better driver" because you live with it. But thats a whole other discussion!
06-20-2006, 03:07 PM
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RE: Crosswind Landings - Crab or side slip??
Mike,
Gotta totally agree there, i do like to fly using the 'sticks', in other words i don't use flapperons, spoilerons or any other weird and wonderful mixes to get better performance for the likes of harriering or prop hangin or anything like that, i just like this little mix coz it's simple and effective.
The way you compare it to a car is dead on.
Cheers,
Zen.
Gotta totally agree there, i do like to fly using the 'sticks', in other words i don't use flapperons, spoilerons or any other weird and wonderful mixes to get better performance for the likes of harriering or prop hangin or anything like that, i just like this little mix coz it's simple and effective.
The way you compare it to a car is dead on.
Cheers,
Zen.