I see these on ebay and wanted some discussion about them...pros? cons?

[link]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130043033238&ssPa geName=[/link]

In my opinion it's better to learn how to fly the plane with an instructor. You give yourself a false sense of confidence with a helper like that.

Learn to fly without electronic help. You'll be a better pilot. Don't take shortcuts in the learning curve.

When I flew my first 1/4 Fokker Dr.1, I used a gyro on the rudder, mainly for ground tracking during takeoff and landing. Sure, it helped. However, after several flights, I took it off and simply learned how to fly with the rudder. Now I'm a competent rudder pilot, and it helps considerably in windy conditions.

Dr.1

pghmike,
In my opinion these are one of the WORST things that a person learning to fly can use. Because they never learn to fly the plane. When learning to fly a plane the student builds skills that allow them to recover the plane when they get into trouble. If the student is using one of the "co-pilots" all they have to do when they are in trouble is release the sticks, and the co-pilot will right the airplane. By doing this there is no way that they will ever develop the skills they need to fly unassisted. I've heard arguments from people that they only let the co-pilot take over when they can't recover it themselves, so it gives them the confidence to try new things. This is nothing but a load of hogwash. These co-pilots are a crutch for weak pilots. When I have students show up for me to train them and they have these on their planes the very first thing I have them do it disconnect the co-pilot.

I'd say to save your money and get a good instructor. An instructor will be the time tested best way of learning to fly.

Hope this helps

Ken

The idea is that the gizmo will return a plane to straight and level flight if something goes wrong and you let go of the sticks. Trouble is, in a panic situation, most new flyers tend to "freeze up with a death grip on the sticks" which means the gizmo won't help you much. BTW, A good trainer will self level by itself if you let go of the sticks anyway. Also the "gizmo" has to be programmed properly before each flight or it will "fight you" for the controls. Seen it happen causing a crash, and that was with a good instructor trying to teach. My opinion, not worth it!! Save your money for other stuff! [>:]

The NexSTAR Deluxe has a similar gizmo to this. I tried it while learning to fly, lasted one flight and I disabled it. It was difficult to get setup right with varying lighting conditions (cloudy with some sunshine at times) so it became a pain in the butt. Besides, I had an instructor with me on a buddy box who would help me more than that gizmo would ever help. It may level the wings, but the part of the pilot is to determine why this happened and learn to make the corrections yourself, which you won't do with this thing attached or enabled.

My opinion, and this is based on experience, save you money for your second plane and get a good instructor with a buddy box. You will learn faster and better.

DS.

The interesting part here is this guy "WON" his bid at $80 + $10 shipping and the Mfg sell them new for $70 + $8 shipping.
http://www.fmadirect.com/detail.htm?...489&section=20

What a DEAL, eh? [:@] ALWAYS investigate before bidding on EBAY. This guy wasted $12 and may not have a warranty either.

I just saw a similiar "deal" for the G3.5 Flight sims. The bidding and the "buy now" is higher in US $$ than I can buy for from my LHS in Can $$. So much for Ebay deals! [>:]

So much for Ebay deals!

That's not a fair statement, fastsky. Like EVERY buying/selling/auction genre, you MUST be knowledgeable of the product being offered. AS always, it's "caveat emptor". Let the buyer beware. I'm glad to say, I've never been stung on eBay, though some have. I HAVE gotten some good deals by knowing the product, too. I've looked at some auctions, checked local and mail order prices, and virtually walked away. I've been to R/C swap shops and seen VERY used items being offered at nearly new prices. I quietly put the item down and walked on.

My Daddy always said, "A fair price is what a seller who doesn't want to sell and a buyer who doesn't want to buy agree on." When I sell something, either on eBay or at a swap shop, I decide how much I want for it, depending on how useful it would be to me if I kept it, and how much space it's taking up in my shop. Do I REALLY want to sell it or am I just fishing? Do I REALLY need something, or would it just "be nice to have"? When I sell, I set in my mind a bottom price I'll take. When I buy, I set in my mind a top price I'll pay. If I don't violate that, I don't get burned.

Dr.1

Yeah, but when a dealer on EBAY advertises a MINIMUM or BUY IT NOW above the typical retail value AND it's not a rare/hard to obtain piece, that is IMO a CROOK. he may be a LEGAL crook but I'd just as soon see him driven out of business as flourish ripping folks off.[:@][>:] There is just no need for people like that. There are enough of them (CROOKS) selling gas at the corner stations but that's another topic best left alone I guess.

but when a dealer on EBAY advertises a MINIMUM or BUY IT NOW above the typical retail value AND it's not a rare/hard to obtain piece, that is IMO a CROOK.

If it's not rare or hard to locate/purchase elsewhere, there's no reason for anyone to pay the inflated price. He's not necessarily a crook, he just wants more for the item than it's worth. Nothing wrong with that, people try it every day. It's possible he bought it, hoping the price would go up, so he could sell it at a profit.

Look at people recently paying thousands of dollars for this little Japanese game that's just come out. They gotta have it NOW, NOW, NOW!!! And they're willing to pay for it. The Japanese are masters at marketing, and use it to their advantage. In a month, there will be thousands of this item in the stores.

How many people flock to a "first run" theatre to see a movie at $7.50 a pop, rather than waiting for it to show up in the "second run" theaters for $2.

Nothing crooked about it, it's called "the open market". No one forces anyone to buy.

If people are willing to pay...

Dr.1

I'm not talking about people who are introducing NEW products and nobody is required to buy it like you said but the seller is IMO in this case still a crook because he is selling a product at a price he knows is inflated and depending upon fools to buy them. Preying on the fools, as it were.
As for the idiots running out to buy that stupid game. Forest Gump would say: Stupid is as stupid does. They definitely are getting the screwing they deserve for buying that crap. I've never bought a video game in my life and never will (aside from what comes built into a computer). Pay $500-$600 for a video game system? Let alone what some are paying on EBAY. Rediculous. And I watch my movies at home where the cable bill is sufficient damage.

Thank you for all the useful information on Ebay and economics

So much for Ebay deals! < Asking more $$ in US funds plus shipping than I can buy locally in Can $$ just down the street is not a good deal. I stand behind my statement.

Here we go again....look I dont know why so many people have a problem with this device....9 out of 10 of them have probably never even seen a co pilot in person much less used it. Or maybe they are getting it mixed up with the Nexstar version which has been known to fly toward the sun and doesnt work very well.

I HAVE used this device, its actually 90% of the reason I successfully learned to fly. Call it a crutch, or whatever you want, but you cant deny that it works. Do you remember the anxiety and "locking up" feelings you had when you first started flying? well the co pilot almost eliminates that feeling. you cant learn when youre stressed out, and the co pilot takes away most of that stress. You call it a crutch, I call it insurance. I can fly fine without it now, but when I was learning, it helped me immensly. Why would you come on this website telling new flyers that it doesnt work, its crap, etc etc? That might just convince them to go out and try and fly by themselves without an instructor, and we all know how that turns out 99% of the time. Is that helping them?

At least try it before you bury it. Its a great tool.

I HAVE seen people attempt to use this device and it did NOT work as advertised. After repeated efforts it was discarded. And YES, he did know what he was doing. He was not only an accomplished rc pilot but also an airline pilot(doesn't really help but thought I'd throw that in).

We are entitled to our opinions just as much as you are. Deal with it.

pbjones81,
I am glad that this product worked for you, but you are in the minority. My experience with instructing and watching newer pilots that use a product like this is that their flying skills develop slower than they would without the product. They tend to rely on the co-pilot to recover plane instead of actually developing the skills needed to do it themselves. In fact, this can cause a false sense of security in newer pilots that can come back and haunt them in a very serious way. They get to a point where they think they have the skills to move up to a 2nd plane only to discover the hard way that they don't know how to recover the airplane when it gets into any situation other than level flight, and then watch helplessly as their plane crashes. So I will say most definitely that this product becomes a crutch. It's nothing degrading about the pilot when I say that because it's just human nature, they will tend to rely on the co-pilot whenever they can. As far as "stressful" situations go, to be totally honest with you learning to handle the plane when there is "stress" is actually part of learning to fly. New pilots need to train their brains to think quickly and decide what they are going to do to right their plane. Trust me, when you have a plane heading at the ground at 100+ mph you're not going to have too much time to decide what you're going to do to save it. And besides, there shouldn't be that much stress considering that there is an instructor standing next to you and you are using the buddy box. That instructor will keep you from crashing your plane. And as your skills develop and you get better at recovering the airplane he will give you more time to save it yourself before he takes over, and eventually you'll be trained to the point that he won't need to take over anymore. Can the co-pilot mechanism do that? Nope, not at all.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not blasting you for the fact that you like the co-pilot because I'm not. I'm glad that you liked it and could benefit from it. But you are in a small minority of people that have benefited from it. The majority of people will actually have more harm done by it than good. Yes, you had good results with it. But you are only one person, and Bruce, myself, and other instructors have seen many beginners have just the opposite results as you observed. And for someone to come in here and try to say that it's a good product to train students with is actually doing a disservice to them. That's why I'm pointing out that your results aren't the norm for this product. Beginning pilots need to know that the copilot product is going to more than likely cause them to spend MORE time learning to fly than if they didn't use it.

Ken

Most crashes by students I have seen were too close to the ground for a co pilot to help any, and the price we invest in a rc model I think if at all possible join a club and let the experienced pilots assist you. I owe my instructors a new plane ten times over. and like was said here you are in a small majority of self taught pilots, that alone is an accomplishment but the average Joe’s aren’t so talented im one of them, It took me a few months before I finally got it. eBay hmmmmmmmmmmmm......good place to sell. BUT the only things I would purchase from there are things that you cant get anymore on occasion you can get a deal but normally I stay away from buying most rc related items. to me I figure why pay 2/3 the price for something when you can get it new and have some type of warranty.

Fwiw, the FMA co-pilot works much better than the Futaba/Nextstar version. I've used both, and while I hate the one in the Nextstar, the FMA one isn't bad.

It really pays to hook up the gain to an extra proportional channel so you can adjust it in flight. I was working with a student for a bit who had one, and the gain control made a huge difference.

I do agree that most new pilots don't need one. And it can become a crutch.

However, if used correctly, for some guys it can speed up the learning process, allowing the student to concentrate on one thing at a time, then slowly reduce the gain until the co-pilot isn't doing anything.

Moving to a second plane from a trainer with co-pilot enabled is generally too large a leap. But moving from a co-pilot-equiped trainer to the same trainer with the co-pilot off or removed, then to a second plane is fine.

I found the co-pilot helped the most with landings, and with teaching percise positional flight earlier than would otherwise be possible, while allowing the hand-eye-reflex training to come along at it's own pace.

Basically, IMHO, there are 2 aspects to learning to fly. One is the hand-eye coordination and "reflexes", and the other is learning to think ahead of the airplane so you can put it where you want it.

People who are fast learners with the reflexes and hand-eye part will NOT benifit much from a co-pilot. They will quickly master the stick wiggling part, and then take most of their student time with learning what to do with the plane, not how to do it.

However, I've had several students who were very quick to understand what a proper approach should look like, and have find depth perception etc. So they know where the plane is and what they should be doing. But they struggle and struggle and struggle with getting their fingers to do what their brain wants them to do. These types of students benifit from the co-pilot quite a bit.

(I made it sound almost either-or. Truth is that everyone learns a little differnetly, and learns different things at different rates. So something like the co-pilot might or might not be for any particular student).

whoa guys... let me apologize if my post came across the wrong way....My post was not intended to sound offensive if thats the way it was taken. Of course we all have our opinions, and I respect others opinions 100%. All I was saying is that the co pilot would be beneficial for someone that didnt have the luxury of using an instructor. Most people that try to fly by themselves end up crashing within the first 10 seconds destroying the airplane. In my opinion, this co pilot would prevent, or at least lessen the possibility of that happening so the pilot can learn in "steps" while turning the co pilots gain down (like I did). But I dont fit into either of those situations, because I had the help of the co pilot...AND an instructor. (Greg Shane of www.2ndrcflightschool.com ) Basically it translated into me getting more "stick time" because I was able to fly the plane without a buddy box and if I got into trouble, rather than hand the TX to the instructor, I would just center the sticks and the co pilot would right the plane. I flew with him on 3 different occasions, and soloed unassisted at the end of the 3rd....with the co pilot turned off.

Consider this....If you go to FMA's website and read up on the co pilot, you will learn that it ONLY takes over when the sticks are centered. the rest of the time you have 100% control over the aircraft. If you want to fly the plane into the ground, it will do so and smash into 1000 peices. BUT, if you are diving toward the ground and you center the sticks, the co pilot will kick in and level the aircraft. It only takes over when you center the sticks.

SO knowing this, there is virtually no difference in using the co pilot and using an instructor with a buddy box. When you get into trouble that you obviously arent going to get out of yourself, something else takes over and fixes the problem for you, whether it be instructor or co pilot.

Dont get me wrong, I am soo thankful to have had my instructor there with me....he taught me fundamentals and concepts that no electrical piece could have ever taught....But again, not everyone will have an instructor. While Im at it, let me point out one thing....These were my INSTRUCTORS planes I learned on. He has a fleet of nexstars, all with the fma co pilot installed and its a well working system because I soloed on the 3rd day, and can now fly my own plane (tower 40 without any co pilot gizmos).

Anyway, my fingers are going numb now so I'll leave it at that....but the part of this post that I want to emphasize the most is that Bruce, and Ken, I didnt mean to ruffle your feathers, and Im sorry if thats the way it was taken. Just wanted to give my opinion. thx

PB, please don't credit your fast solo only on your instructor and an electrical device. Please let us know that most of it was due to your willingness and persistance to learn this great hobby. Also did you use a sim?.

I was fortunate enough to have a sim to practice with and 20+ years in cars and boats. I was able to solo in 2 sessions with my instructor and I give him alot of credit because he let me fly the plane and didn't keep taking control. If I was too low he would tell me to get some altitude. when practicing landing he let me fly it to the ground from the first time I tried. he coached me he didn't take the plane everytime I got out of shape.

So PB congrats on a fast solo and hope your are enjoying flying. I still have to stand by the join a club and get an instructor, not only did I get free flight training but I made alot of new friends that have helped me alot since my solo.

I've got an FMA Co-Pilot. It's on my Raptor 30 helicopter, which I didn't fly at all last year. I like the idea of flying helicopters, but my skill level with them is low. For whatever reason, I don't have an easy time with the helicopter. The CP lets me enjoy it a bit more, and in my experience significantly lowers my chance of a crash. The money saved in repair parts has made the CP a good investment for me. I don't believe my heli skills will ever reach the point where I'll be a competent helicopter pilot. The CP let's me fly the heli a bit even though my abilities otherwise wouldn't.

I've never tried it on an airplane, and I think it would drive me nuts on an airplane. For certain people, however, it might be just what they need in order to enjoy flying an airplane. I wouldn't advocate that anyone should buy a CP right off the bat, but for the small number of people who just can't level out an airplane the CP may be a good choice. It would allow them to participate in and enjoy the hobby in a safer, less frustrating way.