bdtsr

My Feedback: (5)

The cost difference between the Laser 6 and the Falsh 5 is about $30. The Flash 5 holds 5 different models and has elevon/vtail mixing built in (great for some park flyers like my Zagi 400X). When all is said and done, I'll have very few if any non-computer radios. Do I need computer radios to fly any of my planes, no, but with multi model capability it makes sense for me. Like MikeL said, you can use the Laser 6 TX for different planes, but the first time you forget to reverse a servo and start the engine up wide open or take off and the plane goes left when you say right, the difference in cost of that computer radio becomes outweighed by the damage done to you or the plane. Most people "Custom Build" their flight packs for the planes they have, most radio mfgs don't allow you to do that with a complete package.

mattebox

The reason I'm defending computer radios is precisely because just about every beginner is told to buy a basic 4 channel radio. I'm trying to offer a different viewpoint that says that if you intent to stay in the hobby, I virtual guaranteed that you will be better off buying the best radio you can afford now. Whether or not you agree with my viewpoint depends on your situation but the benefits of a computer radio are clear. In many situations, buying cheap really does mean buying twice (or three times). It is a false economy, in my opinion.

And yes, I also have a Futaba buddy box and it hooks right up to my Futaba Super 8 (which is the master) with absolutely no problems.

You know, when I first got into this hobby, which was only about a year ago, I was concerned about costs just like any beginner. But I now realize that anyone who really intents to stay in the hobby will eventually develop the "airplane syndrome" where you have this instinctive need to constantly buy more and more airplanes. You all know what I'm talking about right? The point is, if you look at the big picture, you'll realize that all of us RC nuts spend a heck of a lot of money in the long run so the cost of getting yourself a good transmitter that one time in order to reliably, safely and conveniently control all of your precious models really isn't all that significant.

Of course, if you are somehow immune to the "airplane syndrome" and don't like or need technology that makes things more convenient, then by all means get yourself a basic 4 channel. And I'm not being sarcastic. If you don't need it, don't get it. But if you do, don't let people talk you out of it.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

I think it's very situational. For some people, a 4-channel is perfect. For others something a bit more advanced is. If you don't need the features for a season or two, the most economical thing to do is wait until you need them. You'll get more radio for your money then, and you can almost always recoup the cost of a 4-channel (keep the flight pack, sell the transmitter). For most people, I think either a 4-channel basic radio or a 6-channel computer radio make the most sense when they start out. The 4-channel costs less, which for some is important. Not a whole lot of modellers really need any features beyond a 6-channel computer radio for their first several seasons, by which point better/cheaper high-end radios will be out.

mattebox

The problem is, no one thinks they'll need more than 4 or 5 channels when they first start out. I didn't think so either. It wasn't until I realized that multiple servo wings need separate channel assignments in order to take advantage of mixes like flaperon, spoiler and crow did I know that I needed a six or even 8 channel receiver (or in my case a 5 channel because the Super 8 allows the left aileron channel to move to channel 5). I would have been screwed if I bought a basic radio. But then again I fly sailplanes so I need these mixes more than you guys so you're right that it's situational.

Anyway, in my opinion, computer radios have benefits that are even useful on a trainer in the first season. I'm not sure if I'd want those flight packs packaged with the basic radios anyway. I'd rather get Hitec 425's which are just slightly more expensive but they have dual ball bearings, more torque and more speed.

david a

So, I could buy one basic non-computer radio along with several flight packs, all on the same frequency as the radio and fly several planes using just the one radio. Correct?

If so then I would not have to worry about trying to figure out which radio went with what plane, as I would have only the one radio that would fly all my planes. If I set the planes and the servo connections up correctly then trimming the planes should not be a problem, one or two clicks in flight and I am done, no biggie.

I have used both a manual and electric typewriter and I agree the word processor wins hands down. I guess maybe because I have used something other than the word processor I have a greater appreciation for it. However, I am thankful for the manual and electric typewriter as it forced me to learn how to spell and construct sentences, as it would not correct me.

I do not see the point in convincing a beginner to start off with the latest and greatest from the get go. It makes more sense to go basic in the beginning until the newbie's future in the hobby has been defined. It could be that he will only want to fly trainer type aircraft the entire time that he is in the hobby. If so a computer radio is not going to benefit him much. He may decide not to stay in the hobby and there he will be with an expensive radio sitting on the shelf. By the time he decides to sell it there will be a newer model out sporting yet more "Let me make it easy for you" features that everyone will have to have and will not want to buy his “old” radio.

It is doubtful that the newbie coming in will understand "Exponential", "Mixing", "Servo Reversing", "Dual Rates" and the likes. Right off the bat he will be confused out of his mind and will decide to take up knitting instead. I doubt that those of you who starting out using a basic radio suffered irreparable harm from the experience. By your posts I also see where many of you had the discipline to save up a few extra dollars over time and were able to "step" up to a computer radio. Why assume that a newbie will not be able to one day afford to step up to another radio, as you were able to do?

It sounds a lot like the "Old Folks" mentality, where they think that young people are not able to handle things like they could when they were young. "Yeah, kids today are weak and soft, so I better make things as easy as I can for them or they will not make it". Although well intentioned, the desire to make everything easy for people is actually harmful and it “is” the reason why people are weak and soft.

All that we are saying is give "Basics" as chance.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

Conversely, the one thing that many newbies might be the most comfortable with is a computer radio. It's less intimidating than a glow engine or CA glue for many, and it's something that they don't have to complicate if they don't want to. My engineering buddy would dive right into playing with a radio and servos, while working with a glow engine would give him the willies.

There's no "pat" answer, as all beginners have different goals and interests.

Flyfalcons

david a,
If all you want is a basic system then by all means go for it. We experienced modelers are recommending at least a basic computer system because if we could go back in time, that's how we would have started. You may think some features that come with computer radios are too advanced for beginners, but you need to have mixing to fly simple planes like Zagis and Gym-E's, just to name a few. In addition, all it takes when switching from one model to another with the same basic system (which is quite possible) is to miss switching a channel from normal to reverse, and you just lost a $300 or greater investment. Is it worth it, when basic computer systems are not much more expensive than standard radios? I'll leave that decision to you, but if I could go back nine years when I was getting started, I would have gone with a simple computer radio from the beginning. You can take my advise or find your own path.

Tattoo

Yes.

I have a basic 4 channel radio (Focus 4), and I fly 9 different airplanes with it. I have enough crystals...and if I wanted to, I could fly all 20 of my current fleet with that one radio.

Aside from new pilots trying to go it on their own, or getting to anxious shortly after soloing...miss-programmed computer radios is the largest cause of crashes I've seen...especially on take off...when the wrong model was selected.

When I fly a new airplane, I do not rely on all kinds of trims and EPA and all that stuff to get things right. I like to do it the old fashioned way by adjusting the clevises, horns, and servo arms on the airplane untill my plane flys correctly with the trims neutral on a non computer radio. This usually only takes a flight or two. Then I know I can grab my radio, and any airplane I want, and go fly it...and not have to worry about being a computer programmer

Of the 9 radios and 20 flight packs we have, two are computer radios and four are 6 channel radios...and it seams like every time I build a new plane...I always grab the basic 4 channel non computer radio...go figure...

bdtsr

My Feedback: (5)

David A, Please read my post #26 regarding the safety issue with using one "Basic" TX for different planes. From a beginners standpoint, this is just not a safe thing to do. A 12,000 rpm meat grinder can to a great deal of damage to you. Now picture this, you are taking off and as you go to turn right and fly away from the pits your plane goes left instead. Natural reaction, more right, now the plane is coming around directly towards the pits, not a good thing. By the time most people realize what has happened (ailerons reversed) it's too late. For $30 to $40 more it doesn't make sense not to buy an entry level computer radio. The Flash 5 or 6XAS are good ones.

ctdahle

Mike,

I own or have access to several Vanguards, a Skysport, a Tower 4, a Laser, and to Futaba and Tower trainer boxes. I also have an old gutted KRAFT Sport Series with leads and alligator clips that can be jumpered to the RF deck on just about anything. I fly with an RD6000.

Plugging in the cord is one thing, and easy. Matching throws, travel volume, trims, and neutrals so that the model reacts identically to both transmitters is entirely another.

When the beginner shows up with his computer radio and he has used the computer to adjust ATV, T-cut, differential, subtrims... PRECISELY the features you guys are saying are so great for beginners, JUST HOW do you set up your non-computer slave boxto match it?

The answer is you CANNOT, at least not in 15 seconds, which means that as an instructor, YOU have to take the time to zero out his set up, and then mechanically adjust all of his linkages so that the two radios match.

The Vanguard ONLY addresses the RD6000's RF deck, it's stick inputs are not filtered through the computer in any way, and this is true of Futaba and Hitec as well. The mere fact that you can plug the buddy cord in and flip the reversing switches in a few seconds does not make them compatible.

On a cost benefit analysis, the 4 channel is the clear winner, and on a practical analysis, the benefit of having gear that will quickly and easily match the buddy box gear that MOST clubs and Instructors own is incalculable.

bdtsr

My Feedback: (5)

So instead of letting the beginner use these features, show them how to adjust it mechanicaly, the way it should have been done in the first place. As an instructor, I get involved in helping the student setup his/her plane from the get go. You can't control what they buy, so control how they set it up. Then it doesn't matter what they have. As far as time goes, I may spend an hour just going over a students new plane before I even test fly it. I never assume the plane is good to go.

Tattoo

I base my experience on what I observe at the field every weekend. I've seen a lot of reversed ailerons. I've seen new guys get all kinds of stuff reversed. I've seen a lot of crashes caused by stuff reversed. It's caused by two things...initial set up error and failure to catch it or have your plane checked out if your a beginner...or, and most commonly, taking off with the wrong model selected in a computer radio. I havent seen a lot of guys fly multiple airplanes from non computer radios...but the ones that do, and there are several of us, always set the multiple airplanes up identical...to date, I have never seen a crash caused by a reversed servo in this situation. And, I would also like to add...that computer radio or not...anyone who crashes an airplane from anything being reversed needs to seriously revisit how they do a preflight...if it's not second nature to check controls before every take off...well, it should be!

Jim Schwagle

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I think this thread is getting beaten to death. Obviously no one is going to change his/her mind. All I can say is choice is better than no choice and one way is not the only way for everyone. With that I'll move on.

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

In my very limited experience with new fliers, you've got to do that anyway--whether a computer radio is involved or not. Learning to set up the linkages properly is an important part of instruction.

I don't think anyone is suggesting beginners use computer radios as shortcuts on their setup, but rather that for a beginner who plans to rapidly progress to a more advanced second airplane they can be a better value. You vehemently disagree, which is fine. I'm very middle of the road, and think the best radio to begin with depends very much on the individual who will be using it.

bdtsr

My Feedback: (5)

"anyone who crashes an airplane from anything being reversed needs to seriously revisit how they do a preflight...if it's not second nature to check controls before every take off...well, it should be!"

I agree with this 100%, but a beginner may not have developed the disciplines we have. But, I can say that the experienced flyer who has not selected the correct model obviously has not done his preflight check as well. But think of this, if you use your TX for a high wing plane, then a low wing plane, the ailerons are reversed, you can't change that short of putting the servo in the same orientation in both high and low wing planes. This means your servo will be exposed on atleast one of your planes. If you use 2 servos mounted out in the wing, then yes you can orient the servo for both directions. To each their own. I have trained several pilots with Flash 5's and they very happy with the fact they bought a radio they could grow into.

mattebox

I agree, Jim. We won't ever convince these guys. But I think it's our duty to challenge this single-minded thinking and present an alternative viewpoint so that any beginner who reads this thread can evaluate and decide for themselves.

As Mike said above and as we have been saying all along, computer radios are not for everyone, but for certain people they do make sense. Making a broad generalization that all beginners should get a basic radio and flat out dismissing all other options as having zero benefit is in my opinion, close minded thinking.

You naysayers should give beginners more credit. There are many bright, capable beginners out there who know how to use technology in addition to common sense. These people need the alternate voice presented here.

As for the buddy box issue, all I will say further is that any beginner who has any doubts about compatibility should contact the radio manufacturer themselves instead of listening to anyone here.

david a

OK, let's compromise and suggest beginners buy two radios; one computer radio and one basic radio. He can use either one to learn on and at the same time will have an extra radio for an instructor to buddy-box with. This way he can purchase a radio from any manufacturer he wishes without having to consider what brand the instructor uses for compatibility reasons.

Should either radio develop a problem and has to go bye bye for repairs he'll at least have something to fall back on to stay airborne.

Hitec Flash5 costs $165 with flight pack (LHS) and a Hitec Laser 4 TX only costs $55 (Internet) totals out to $220. Actually, this isn't a bad deal and I may do it myself. I've already bought the Laser 4 with flight pack for $105 and I can buy a Flash5 (TX only) for $110; $215 isn't too bad a deal for two radios.

Al Stein

No argument here -- but a strong statement does seem to bring out the real feelings, even from people who might have sat on the fence otherwise. (I'm not a real nay-sayer, just an instigater.)

As for giving beginners credit, though, I had no intention of reflecting the beginner, only his needs. I'm sure that most beginners can handle technology better than the average old-head. Only thing is, the problems I've seen were actually experienced by long-time flyers and instructors... without whom the beginner can't get qualified to fly by himself.

So being able to handle the technology is like driving a car whose maneuverability can keep you out of wrecks... that only helps if the crash was going to be your fault. That's not enough because at least half of all 2-car crashes are caused by the other guy and no car (or transmitter) can keep the other guy from goofing up. That's why I like to see beginners operate in a environment where the other guy's errors are not an issue (or as little an issue as we can limit them to).

Tattoo

What I see is from spending weekends at the field. For every experienced pilot with a 5th or 6th channel who actually uses it for flaps or retracts...There are probably a good 20 or more basic 4 channel airplanes. For every sport airplane I see with elevons requiring mixing, there are probably 50 or more basic 4 channel airplanes. For every V-tail sport airplane I see requiring mixing, there are probably 50 or more basic 4 channel airplanes. For every pilot with more than one airplane requireing multiple model memory, there are probably 20 or more guys with only one basic 4 channel airplane. For every 100 or so new guys that show up at the field with a basic 4 channel airplane...possibly 10 or 12 stick with the hobby. Of those guys, maybe half of them will fly multiple planes with one transmitter, and maybe a couple will go on to more advanced planes requiring mixing, flaps, retracts etc. I've seen needless hours spent beeping away at computer radios, and sensless crashes caused by not getting it right. I've seen a whole heck of a lot more guys with fancy computer radios that didn't need them, than I have seen guys with basic non computer radios that did indeed need them. And if someone who has a basic non computer radio catches the R/C addiction...and builds multiple planes, and needs all the functions...GREAT!!!...now he has a basic 4 channel system to pass on to a new guy just getting started...not knowing if he'll stick with the hobby or not.

bdtsr

My Feedback: (5)

Must be a geographical thing...... ours is just the opposite.

jduran280

I am a newcomer to the hobby, and I bought a 9C for a few reasons:
1. I saved up for it, and didn't rush out and buy the cheapest thing I could just to get started.
2. I had time to do extesive online research about the different products out there and I even read the 9C manual a couple of times before I bought it.
3. As a newcomer, I do use dual rates, Idle-up and throttle cut. I don't use any mixing yet though. But I find the timers very helpful.
I guess you could put me in the 'buy the best radio that you can afford' camp as well.

WreckRman2

My Feedback: (5)

Without a doubt if you KNOW your gonna stick with the hobby you can't go wrong in buying the best radio you can afford at the time.

On opposite ends if your not sure about the hobby and just want to try it out first then buy the least expensive radio.

Whirley Bird

My Feedback: (1)

FUTABA 4VF That $150.00 is the full system.
RX TX 4 ball bearing servos,battery packs and charger.
The 6FM is only $5.00 more with the standard servos.
Sounds good to me

grazzhopper

To answer your questions, Yes the 6xaps is a good radio with room to grow. At $250 I think you could do better. You might consider the Flash 5X at about $160. Cheers

Ladyflyer

My Feedback: (2)

All non sense aside , a plainold 4 channel radio is an EXCELLENT choice for a first radio.

1 . Low initial investment

2. Low maintenance

3. Low battery drain ,low weight .

4 Less confusion over coupling etc. ,at a time when you need only learn basic controls for flying.

5. Fewer knobs,levers,bells and whistles for your struggling fingers and thumbs to negotiate.

6. The mechanical trims are not as bad as many claim. You don't have to look at the screen to see where they are set, you can feel the position . When you pull back the throttle and the idle trim you shut the engine down. No second guessing which switch to flip and which way to flip it.

7 If you decide to sell the trainer down the road it is easier to sell a turn key package to another newbie who may not have the desire or ability to install a radio. You also have an in tact package for a junior member or friend to borrow if and when he trys to learn.

8 Just as sure as people seem eager to rush into a plane that is about 200 hours experience beyond their ability ,people will also tryto enhance their flying with gadgetry long before they really understand what they are doing . Most folks need to spend more time flying and honing than programming. The programming WHEN DONE RIGHT can make you look a little better or make you look a lot worse if not done right.
It is always better to start out with control linkages mechanically proper rather than make up for bad linkage layout with a computer band aid .

A proper mechanical linkage will give the desired control throw with the best possible speed and resolution. The computer radio makes for easy fine tuning but trying to compensate for a bad layout is all to often what happens . If you use a basic radio you get into the habit of getting the proper control throw MECHANICALLY, the way it should be !!

Once you understand inputs and responses , mechanical advantage etc . you will be better able to make full use of the computer radio .

Anyone who can work a straight manual 35mm camera can use an automatic camera to full advantage . A point and shoot snapshooter may never learn the basics of metering and exposure . Don't let electrons take ALL the fun and learning out of one of the best hobbies known

There are pros and cons but I would not rule out the basic 4 or 6 channel entry level radio.