Under the hood
06-09-2007, 06:24 AM
#1
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Under the hood
Many years ago, I developed a technique to cure beginners from erratic flying. What I have them do is look down at their fingers on the control lever while they're flying. It seems that when they are looking at the plane, many aren't aware of what exactly the attitude the plane is in. Their brain is conflicting on what they think their eyes are seeing and what I am telling them to do. For example, their eyes might be telling them that the wings are banked in a left turn, or not even have any idea what is going one, and therefore, in their minds, I am giving them the wrong command to make the appropriate control movement.
So, by having them not look at the plane at all, they will have no choice but to follow my commands to move the stick exactly when, where, duration and speed of deflection. This have proven many times to be a literal instant cure, although sometimes just a temporary solution. I have them do this for a couple of minutes (more or less), and once I have them look back up, they continue to fly very smoothly. Also, they get to see exactly how little stick movement it takes to fly very smoothly.
I am very much aware that this is something that may not feasible for those who use a buddy-cord or pass the box method, but those who use a similar teaching method that I use might be able to eventually work it into their teaching technique. Then again, if the buddy-box instructor has a helper to work with the student and instructor, they might be able to try this "under the hood" teaching method.
CCR
So, by having them not look at the plane at all, they will have no choice but to follow my commands to move the stick exactly when, where, duration and speed of deflection. This have proven many times to be a literal instant cure, although sometimes just a temporary solution. I have them do this for a couple of minutes (more or less), and once I have them look back up, they continue to fly very smoothly. Also, they get to see exactly how little stick movement it takes to fly very smoothly.
I am very much aware that this is something that may not feasible for those who use a buddy-cord or pass the box method, but those who use a similar teaching method that I use might be able to eventually work it into their teaching technique. Then again, if the buddy-box instructor has a helper to work with the student and instructor, they might be able to try this "under the hood" teaching method.
CCR
06-09-2007, 06:39 AM
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RE: Instant cure
If a majority of instructors had there students fly in closer instead of out in the north forty, they would not need to do this. I would not be surprised if every student pilot who has trouble keeping and eye on his plane, now looks down at the TX, then looks up? This little trick is cute for instrument training but looks like a bad idea around this hobby.
What happened? Well I lost track of the plane, so I took my eyes of it and looked down at tha transmitter. You did what?
What happened? Well I lost track of the plane, so I took my eyes of it and looked down at tha transmitter. You did what?
06-09-2007, 06:44 AM
#3
Thread Starter
RE: Instant cure
Interestingly enough, I've been very successful doing this for a couple of decades now and have never lost a plane in the process. Of course, one will have to do what it takes to learn anything...practice, practice, practice.
If there is anyone out there who would like to personally witness and even possibly allow me to try to teach it to them, I will be happy to give them a demonstration and with beginners of their choice. Seeing is believing.
CCR
If there is anyone out there who would like to personally witness and even possibly allow me to try to teach it to them, I will be happy to give them a demonstration and with beginners of their choice. Seeing is believing.
CCR
06-09-2007, 09:42 AM
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RE: Under the hood
Rather than have them take their eyes off the plane, the technique I find most helpful is to have them put down the buddy box, stand next to me, and have them put their thumbs on top of mine. While we both watch the plane, I put it through the desired maneuvers. This allows them to see the plane's reaction and feel the size and duration of the stick movements. After a couple minutes, back on the buddy box, and they tend to be much smoother.
Brad
Brad
06-09-2007, 10:46 AM
#5
Thread Starter
RE: Under the hood
That technique is a variation of what I've been doing for many years. The difference is, among several things, including putting them under the hood, is I don't use the buddy-box at all. Yes, you are correct that there will always be a improvement in the beginner's flying. If instructors opened their minds a bit, THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT as far as giving RC flight instrution goes. It's sort of sad that too many instructors seem to be stuck with old school thinking.
CCR
CCR
ORIGINAL: bkdavy
Rather than have them take their eyes off the plane, the technique I find most helpful is to have them put down the buddy box, stand next to me, and have them put their thumbs on top of mine. While we both watch the plane, I put it through the desired maneuvers. This allows them to see the plane's reaction and feel the size and duration of the stick movements. After a couple minutes, back on the buddy box, and they tend to be much smoother.
Brad
Rather than have them take their eyes off the plane, the technique I find most helpful is to have them put down the buddy box, stand next to me, and have them put their thumbs on top of mine. While we both watch the plane, I put it through the desired maneuvers. This allows them to see the plane's reaction and feel the size and duration of the stick movements. After a couple minutes, back on the buddy box, and they tend to be much smoother.
Brad
06-09-2007, 11:27 AM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: bkdavy
Rather than have them take their eyes off the plane, the technique I find most helpful is to have them put down the buddy box, stand next to me, and have them put their thumbs on top of mine. While we both watch the plane, I put it through the desired maneuvers. This allows them to see the plane's reaction and feel the size and duration of the stick movements. After a couple minutes, back on the buddy box, and they tend to be much smoother.
Brad
Rather than have them take their eyes off the plane, the technique I find most helpful is to have them put down the buddy box, stand next to me, and have them put their thumbs on top of mine. While we both watch the plane, I put it through the desired maneuvers. This allows them to see the plane's reaction and feel the size and duration of the stick movements. After a couple minutes, back on the buddy box, and they tend to be much smoother.
Brad
Your post just reminded me of an idea I had a few years ago. What if someone took an old transmitter, removed all the electronics from it, installed 4 micro servos, a receiver and battery pack. The servos would be installed such that they move the sticks in unison with the live transmitter. The student simply holds the TX and lightly rest his thumbs on the sticks while watching the plane flying around. This would allow him/her to feel first hand what movements are required for specific maneuvers. If I were an instructor, I'd probably do this just to try it out and see how it works.
Erik
06-09-2007, 01:13 PM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: fliers1
That technique is a variation of what I've been doing for many years. The difference is, among several things, including putting them under the hood, is I don't use the buddy-box at all. Yes, you are correct that there will always be a improvement in the beginner's flying. If instructors opened their minds a bit, THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT as far as giving RC flight instrution goes. It's sort of sad that too many instructors seem to be stuck with old school thinking.
CCR
That technique is a variation of what I've been doing for many years. The difference is, among several things, including putting them under the hood, is I don't use the buddy-box at all. Yes, you are correct that there will always be a improvement in the beginner's flying. If instructors opened their minds a bit, THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT as far as giving RC flight instrution goes. It's sort of sad that too many instructors seem to be stuck with old school thinking.
CCR
Another thing I think that some students need to do is simply humble themselves and soak up all that the instructor teaches and practice it continuosly. Depends on the instructor of course but all through your training you're given good advice and most all of it is valid throughout your time spent flying in the future. Don't drop all of that info once you're given the green light after your first solo.
Heard this somewhere and it rings true in my opinion... "The best teacher is also a student."
somegeek
06-09-2007, 07:42 PM
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RE: Instant cure
ORIGINAL: Trollmaster
If a majority of instructors had there students fly in closer instead of out in the north forty, they would not need to do this. I would not be surprised if every student pilot who has trouble keeping and eye on his plane, now looks down at the TX, then looks up? This little trick is cute for instrument training but looks like a bad idea around this hobby.
What happened? Well I lost track of the plane, so I took my eyes of it and looked down at tha transmitter. You did what?
If a majority of instructors had there students fly in closer instead of out in the north forty, they would not need to do this. I would not be surprised if every student pilot who has trouble keeping and eye on his plane, now looks down at the TX, then looks up? This little trick is cute for instrument training but looks like a bad idea around this hobby.
What happened? Well I lost track of the plane, so I took my eyes of it and looked down at tha transmitter. You did what?
Don't get me wrong T man I don't want to get into a debate with you because I respect your opinion. Fliers 1 taught me how to fly successfully in about a month. Landings and take off's also. For the last 4 years I have been flying a myriad of aircraft next to guy's that have been learning to fly on the buddy box for many years. Actually he has almost, if not everyone of his students land on their first lesson, several times. Everyone of his students are successful in flying in a extremely short period of time. When I mean a month for myself I mean I was flying a Fokker D-VII on my own, landing and taking off.
Every time he makes a post about his teaching method someone jumps on it, criticizes it and sometimes people agree. I guess this sounds to good to be true Fliers 1 but since you taught me I have the fortunate benefit to know your the best and so is your method. I have seen your absolute success for 4 years and a multitude of students from Italy, Texas, Ohio, California, Switzerland and so on and so on. The common denominator from all these students was ", I tried clubs and other instructors but I want to fly right now." Another words they tried the other way of instructing and got no where. In there own words, that I heard with my own ears.
The funniest story was those guy's from New Jersey that lost there flying site that was on a hazardous waste dump (, flying site's are being lost daily, even one like this.) You had him land his trainer and I was flying my D-VII. Even though it was his first flight I asked you if you wanted to let him fly this. I then handed you MY RADIO to MY BABY and let you have him fly it. Well you worked your magic and he was flying it with ease in about one minute. The whole time remarking, I can't do this I can't do this. I walked next to him and said ", sir your doing this" he then said "oh yea" LOL.
Hang in their F 1. These people just can't imagine what it's like. It really is to good to be true. Unless of course one would like to see you do this in person and post on this forum what they witnessed as to what they merely ass-u-me.
Happy landings,
The Doc.
06-09-2007, 08:32 PM
#9
RE: Under the hood
Wow, I am impressed. In fliers1's profile page he says he's been flying for 34 years and now you say You've watched him teach this method for all 34 of those years.
06-10-2007, 12:41 AM
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RE: Under the hood
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
06-10-2007, 01:06 AM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: mbilar1
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
06-10-2007, 01:27 AM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: tonywp
Yea , that is how my instructor taught me.
ORIGINAL: mbilar1
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
I believe this is the way we all learned. Is there another technique that I'm not aware of? This now is second nature for me and I don't even think if the plane is coming or going. I even find landings to be easier when the plane is coming.
06-10-2007, 04:22 AM
#15
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: mbilar1
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
I've found that I don't even have to mention anything concerning control reversal. All I do is tell them to move the stick left, center, right, center, pull back, center. They seldom, if ever have a problem with the plane coming toward them.
One time, when I was teaching at a flying club in Canada, I had the first time ever student turn his back to the flight line, fly his trainer better than when he was looking at it. I have literally all of my students takeoff and land on their first or second ever flying session. Once more, if anyone would like to see me do this and with beginners of their own choosing, I'll be happy to give them a demonstration. I know it sounds too good to be true, but seeing is believing.
CCR
06-10-2007, 06:49 AM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: plugin
I believe this is the way we all learned. Is there another technique that I'm not aware of? This now is second nature for me and I don't even think if the plane is coming or going. I even find landings to be easier when the plane is coming.
ORIGINAL: tonywp
Yea , that is how my instructor taught me.
ORIGINAL: mbilar1
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
During one of my training sessions, the instructor told me, "when it's flying toward you, move the (aileron) stick toward the wing you want to raise." That's how he was trained and it seems to work for me. Any else ever heard that?
I believe this is the way we all learned. Is there another technique that I'm not aware of? This now is second nature for me and I don't even think if the plane is coming or going. I even find landings to be easier when the plane is coming.
Same here but I don't recall at any time being told to take my eyes off the plane. Not the brightest move on the game board here unless your flying someone else's plane
06-10-2007, 07:45 AM
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RE: Under the hood
Same here but I don't recall at any time being told to take my eyes off the plane. Not the brightest move on the game board here unless your flying someone else's plane
What I find to be the least brightest of all is commenting on something without knowing for sure. Yes CCR taught me to fly using his method and yes he did have me look down and at the same time he was having me fly the plane. Under full control and it was his plane by the way.
The most embarrassing time was when I said I couldn't do it and handed him the radio. He then set the radio on the ground, pulled up his pants as a gesture and picked up the radio and made the turn and set it back on the ground. I felt about 1" tall, picked up the radio and started flying.
Please understand TM that he taught me to fly in a NY. February. In 20 to 25 mile per hour winds. This was no problem for me or him. As far as the directional aspect of it all, that was never an issue. When I asked him about it he stated to me, don't even think about it and just keep flying along. I did and it became second nature, without a thought.
So in a nutshell, anybody that has negative comments about this teaching method that has never experienced this first hand should come here try it out and then post the reality aspect of it as opposed to the speculative uneducated criticism of simply not knowing.
Here is a post I ran across from someone that is not commenting out of ignorance,
Testimonial from Henry Zwolak President Niagara Region Model Flying Club www.nrmfc.ca
I also received a letter from an old friend of the club, Clarence Ragland. Clarence is an amazing individual. I call him the model plane whisperer. About 6 years ago, Clarence came to our field to train pilots who never flew before. He took 5 student pilots who never flew prior to meeting with him. In the space of a few minutes ALL these pilots were flying by themselves and even landed the plane – solo - all without assistance from him or anyone else. Clarence has perfected a training method that would be unbelievable except that a lot of our veteran club members witnessed this incredible day. Anyway, Clarence recently wrote me and he is offering free lessons to anyone who would like to take advantage of them. His website is below. Clarence is located in Lockport, New York http://www.abchobbyshop.com/Lake_Ontario_Flyers.html
Happy landings,
The Doc
06-10-2007, 10:27 AM
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RE: Under the hood
I tell people who are really new to this hobby to be very gentle with the controls and be smooth, treat your plane like a lady. My flight instructor with the full size planes told me that, and I teach that to others with with the smaller planes. I think that's why I solo'd second night at my club with the Goldberg Eagle last year... now I fly Sport Warbirds with working flaps etc. this year.
Plus my old R/C flight instructor is also a FAA endorsed pilot who loves this hobby, and knew I was in full control of the aircraft after taking off, and landing 3 times with 3 touch & Go's. " Keep your wings level, and your fuse level... a little rudder, ail and elevator in your turns keeping everything smooth... you don't need to look away from your aircraft.
The Pro's use spotters, just so they can keep there eye's on there planes. I've seen films of people looking at there control inputs and lost eye contact when they looked up... resulting in a crash. Crash Pro sent me one of them... a guy lost his nice Chipmunk that way. To me it's always sad when I see a plane go in... even the ARF's and RTF needs considerable amount of work to get ready for flight.
On a slightly windy or turbulent day, that second or two of not keeping your eyes on your plane at low altitude can mean disaster. These planes are expensive, and I like to keep my planes and equipment looking new for a long time.
I never take my eyes off of my planes... unless I'm on final, then I will peak at where the edge of the runway is. I haven't lost a plane... nor have I put one in the tall grass in a long time... That's just me.
Luftwaffe Oberst
Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
Pulaski, NY
Plus my old R/C flight instructor is also a FAA endorsed pilot who loves this hobby, and knew I was in full control of the aircraft after taking off, and landing 3 times with 3 touch & Go's. " Keep your wings level, and your fuse level... a little rudder, ail and elevator in your turns keeping everything smooth... you don't need to look away from your aircraft.
The Pro's use spotters, just so they can keep there eye's on there planes. I've seen films of people looking at there control inputs and lost eye contact when they looked up... resulting in a crash. Crash Pro sent me one of them... a guy lost his nice Chipmunk that way. To me it's always sad when I see a plane go in... even the ARF's and RTF needs considerable amount of work to get ready for flight.
On a slightly windy or turbulent day, that second or two of not keeping your eyes on your plane at low altitude can mean disaster. These planes are expensive, and I like to keep my planes and equipment looking new for a long time.
I never take my eyes off of my planes... unless I'm on final, then I will peak at where the edge of the runway is. I haven't lost a plane... nor have I put one in the tall grass in a long time... That's just me.
Luftwaffe Oberst
Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
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06-10-2007, 11:25 AM
#20
Thread Starter
RE: Under the hood
Please reread my original post. Putting them under the hood is simply an exercise to get them to fly more smoothly, rather than letting them bang the sticks around. Interestingly enough, and it even surprised me that once I have the student look up, she or he immediately visually locates the plane. Seems they were subconsciously following the path of their plane by sound.
I've had many soloed beginners come to me so I can help them improve their flying or they want to learn aerobactics. The first thing I notice is they may be able to takeoff, fly reasonably well and make some sort of controlled landing, but they are doing all of this essentially "mixing a batter", meaning that although the trainer is trimmed out to fly very smoothly on its own, these new pilot's fingers are constantly (unnecessarily) moving. It seems that their instructor couldn't monitor what their student's fingers were doing while teaching with a buddy-box. By looking down and with (ME KEEPING TRACK OF THE PLANE IN FLIGHT) the student can see exactly what his fingers are doing. This technique literally immediately cures the stick banging problem. After that, there is no need to look away from the plane, but if he does, he has learned how to use his other senses to know where his plane is at all times. There are other benefits of this exercise.
CCR
I've had many soloed beginners come to me so I can help them improve their flying or they want to learn aerobactics. The first thing I notice is they may be able to takeoff, fly reasonably well and make some sort of controlled landing, but they are doing all of this essentially "mixing a batter", meaning that although the trainer is trimmed out to fly very smoothly on its own, these new pilot's fingers are constantly (unnecessarily) moving. It seems that their instructor couldn't monitor what their student's fingers were doing while teaching with a buddy-box. By looking down and with (ME KEEPING TRACK OF THE PLANE IN FLIGHT) the student can see exactly what his fingers are doing. This technique literally immediately cures the stick banging problem. After that, there is no need to look away from the plane, but if he does, he has learned how to use his other senses to know where his plane is at all times. There are other benefits of this exercise.
CCR
06-10-2007, 11:51 AM
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RE: Under the hood
Thumbs on top of controls seems to work with the steadiness. I guess we all have our own different ways. As long as they all work... that's the main thing. Wouldn't it be much more safer doing your method on a flight sim?
Luftwaffe Oberst
Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
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Wouldn't it be much more safer doing your method on a flight sim?Luftwaffe Oberst
Aero Modelers Club
AMA District II
Pulaski, NY
06-10-2007, 01:09 PM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: DR.B.S.
What I find to be the least brightest of all is commenting on something without knowing for sure.
What I find to be the least brightest of all is commenting on something without knowing for sure.
This is what 90% of this site is all about. You take a look at most everyone here who asks what's the best prop on a specific engine. Everyone jumps in with answers without even know what plane and the same applies for 50 other things.. Sorry but I think it's stupid and would not encourage it.
Too many pilots have developed very bad habits which they got from instructors. I do not necessarily mean that are bad pilots per say, just bad habits. I call it as i see it.
06-10-2007, 07:07 PM
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RE: Under the hood
ORIGINAL: Trollmaster
This is what 90% of this site is all about. You take a look at most everyone here who asks what's the best prop on a specific engine. Everyone jumps in with answers without even know what plane and the same applies for 50 other things.. Sorry but I think it's stupid and would not encourage it.
Too many pilots have developed very bad habits which they got from instructors. I do not necessarily mean that are bad pilots per say, just bad habits. I call it as i see it.
ORIGINAL: DR.B.S.
What I find to be the least brightest of all is commenting on something without knowing for sure.
What I find to be the least brightest of all is commenting on something without knowing for sure.
Too many pilots have developed very bad habits which they got from instructors. I do not necessarily mean that are bad pilots per say, just bad habits. I call it as i see it.
The point of looking down is in no way a detriment in any way. This instructor is in full control of the plane at all times. Also on a windy day at low altitudes it is not just an instructor that can have problems. I have seen very good flyer's dump their plane in the same manner doing aerobatics, low to the field.
Understanding is a 3 edge sword, your side, my side and the truth. Without seeing this first hand speculation reigns supreme. Knowledge is in far second until you experience it.
Happy landings,
The Doc
06-10-2007, 07:37 PM
#24
RE: Under the hood
DR.B.S. - could I suggest that you BOLD your comments or something so we know what and where you are making them? Otherwise I, for one, am not going to bother to try to struggle to figure out where they are buried in anothers comments. Thanks.