I gathered that was his intention, since he thought the Cloud Dancer ARF instructions were too vague.

That's what I thought . I would agree then , if he is having problems with the ARF instructions stay with one of the well know manufactures and maybe tackle something like this after you assemble the next one.
But then again, I`m sure if he bought it , we could walk him thru the process if this is the plane he wants.

Yes, I am just talking about the Cloud Dancer 60 ARF. I am actually a writer and so I understand exactly what the issue is. The assembly instructions for this plane were, very obviously to a writer, originally written in an Asian language (probably Chinese) and then translated into English by someone who speaks English as a second language. This is obvious to me as a writer after reading the pdf manual online. For someone who has never put a plane together before, the manual that comes with that plane doesn't actually tell you how to put the plane together. I really think this plane would be really popular as a second plane if they had someone who speaks English as a first language and is experienced with model planes write them a new manual for English speaking markets.

Anyway, I was thinking I didn't want to be bothering people with "newbie" questions about how to put a plane together so I would just find one with instructions that I can understand. But, after visiting 3 local flying fields today and talking to people there, and reading some of the replies here about this, I think I will still get a Cloud Dancer 60 as my second plane and just ask people who have build planes before to look at what is confusing me and tell me what was really meant. After meeting "the RC crowd" today I don't think you guys will be bothered by a few simple questions about putting a plane together. Which is great, cause I really like that plane:-)

If you want to see an example of what I am talking about look at the pdf manual for the Cloud Dancer 60. This is just one example... Look at the instructions for installing the retractable landing gear... When you get to the picture of the servo with the wires sticking out of the hole, and the directions end at that point... ask yourself how you would know what to do from there if you had never put a plane together before. Like I said, I think I could do it if I had put one together before. But if it is the first plane you are putting together (even an ARF), this manual translated by someone who only knows English as a second language just doesn't actually explain how to do it. The directions for assembling the retractable landing gear are a great example, they just kind of end half-way through the process.

But I understand most of it, and with helpful people like you guys and the people I met at the fields today I should be able to get a Cloud Dancer 60 together this winter. I'm pretty sure that if I am still flying these things a decade from now I will call the Cloud Dancer my "beater plane" (but then I bet most people's "beater plane" is their low wing trainer). So I am getting an Arrow 40 trainer and some flight sim software next month, and putting together a Cloud Dancer 60 just as soon as I get snowed in:-)

Oh, there was a guy flying a huge (I think it said 10/300 on the side if I remember right) gas powered Aeroworks Ultimate at one of the fields at today. He was really good at flying and the plane was just amazing. That was really cool:-)

Kang , your on the right track. there is no reason now not to get the Dancer, with the help you`ve found at the local Club , it would`nt suprize me that the plane comes out better than the instruction tell you.
As far as beaters, I use a Twist when I`m feeling fearless. Thier cheap and I`m not fearless very often.
good luck, let us know how it goes when the snow flies.

Yeah, after talking to some people at the flying fields this all really came together of how to do this. I've been told that if I know I am going to get a second plane already after the trainer I'd be better off getting the ARF version of the Arrow and a decent 6-channel controller instead of getting the RTF Arrow and it's controller. Apparently I will also wind up with better servos going this route. While he was telling me this I was thinking that this also lets me build a plane before the Cloud Dancer, so going this route everything just seems to work out perfectly for what I want to do. I know it will be initially more expensive this way, but it's cheaper than wanting a new controller for the Cloud Dancer which I'm sure I will. I've already looked at the instructions for putting an Arrow together and I can easily do that. So I'll probably understand the Cloud Dancer manual after I've put an Arrow together.

I think I am going to use a 4-stroke engine in the Cloud Dancer and use that plane both as a low wing trainer and to expeirence using a 4-stroke engine all at once.

I really love the 50cc planes. Even just watching those things fly is fun:-)

Hmm... Going ARF on the trainer makes a lot more choices available. After looking around, I am looking for a "higher-performance" semi-syemtrical wing trainer that I can use for a while before getting another plane. I've found three I can't really decide between because I don't know anything about them. Which of these three trainers would you experienced fliers pick for a good trainer that can also do some basic aerobatics?

Hangar 9 Arrow 40

Kyosho Calmato 40

World Models World Star 40

Are any of these known to be particularly good planes for my purpose?

Of all those on the list I most highly recommend the Hangar 9 Arrow. If you have an engine and radio gear already you can buy just the plane and hardware, you don't have to get the ready to fly version. If you don't already have the parts then the ready to fly version is good, but if it is your second plane you might want to make a couple of modifications like I did. I am an instructor in my club and found the need to purchase my own trainer to let students fly on the buddy box. Having a well maintained, properly set up, good flying trainer on hand is a lot of fun on the side too! I am going to try floats with my Arrow sometime this Summer.[8D]

Take a look at these pictures to see how I put this H9 Arrow together to make it more of an aerobatic trainer, yet it still retains its teaching qualities for a complete newbie. The plane is solid, assembled with laser cut parts and good glue. The only structural modification I had to make was to put some triangle stock under the bottom of the horizontal stabilizer to make sure it held on...others have had their stabilizer and vertical fin break off in flight.

All the stock hardware is supurb and completely usable. I used everything but the spinner and 3-bladed prop since they won't work with my motor. I LOVE how the wing slides together. I could have glued the halves together if I wanted, but there's no need with the included Ultracote pieces to just seal it up. The rubber bands won't let the wing slide apart as long as the Ultracote is applied...there's tape too if you want to use it. The horizontal stabilizer and vertical fin bolt on with a little glue to secure them in place, they are already aligned...no measuring! I have built/assembled many kits and ARFs and this semi-semetrical, aerobatics capable trainer is the best so far.

The Arrow flies straight and true and lands with forgiving slowness. Most of the dihedral has been taken out of the wing, so it doesn't have the self-recovery characteristics that most flat bottom winged trainers do, so make sure to have an instructor standing next to you. When you are ready to progress to your "second plane" you have it already in front of you...just push up the power a little and you can do huge loops, hammer heads, slow rolls, inverted flight, point rolls and more! You won't get bored with this plane, even put floats under it as many others have mentioned.

The O.S. .52 Surpass gives this plane a lightweight engine that can pull it unlimited in the vertical, sounds great and is not too expensive. The .70 four-strokes are just too heavy and the plane doesn't need that much power. The .52 can turn a 12x6 prop, but there's no ground clearance so I am running an APC 11x5 which slows the plane down a little and unloads the motor for cooler head temperatures, longer flight times per tank of fuel and longer motor life. I don't fly around at full throttle, so I don't have to worry about over revving the motor and on uplines the extra power is welcome!

Good luck! Take time to just sit and watch others and you might find you learn a lot...after flying for 18 years I still love to sit, watch, talk and learn more about this wonderful hobby.[&:]

Thanks for that great review. After looking around I'm just sticking with the Arrow like I originally planned. Nobody really has anything bad to say about it other than the tail falling off, which isn't actually a problem when you know about it and can pre-emptively fix it. It really seems like exatly what I want. In fact, the more I read the more I think I can just skip the whole "second plane" thing and go straight to an Edge or Ultimate from an Arrow:-)

Hehe, yeah, go from an Arrow .40 trainer to an Edge 540 or Ultimate Biplane! Your first landing will be quite exciting.

You know, once you learn to keep those wings level on landing and use small inputs to guide the plane down to landing, you'll do great with an Edge or Ultimate. Remember to keep the throws at the "low rate" setting for your first few flights and you'll be fine if you have mastered the ARROW.

Mastered=

1. Land on centerline, even with a slight crosswind
2. Steer well down the centerline upon landing and on takeoff using rudder
3. Get a good, light weight Edge or Ultimate...my favorite .40 class Edge is this one http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_19...%2CEdge/tm.htm
4. Remember to use low rates, especially during T/O and landing

Good luck! Find a good instructor or two and stick with it, you'll be doing all the maneuvers in no time![8D]

P.S. Two new students met me at the field this evening after it cooled down a bit, the wind calmed to a light breeze and the sun moved to our backs. They had a ball flying around the ARROW and are now hooked on a new hobby. After only a few minutes through the first flight each of them were able to guide the plane through left and right turns, figure 8's and a loop or two, with only minor instruction. Getting those wings to level when the plane is coming toward us was the most difficult thing for them to master...many reminders to put the stick toward the low wing...

Yes, I think I going to skip the whole "second plane" thing and just use the Arrow for a few months until I feel confident enough to just go straight to one of the planes I really want. I have probably about 8-10,000 hours flying flight simulators. I understand the phsysics of flight. I design games, and have over 30 years of very extensive experience with computer games. Flying RC planes is going to be something that I just have a lot of natural talent at. I'm going to learn it very quickly and I'm sure I would wind up regretting wasting money on a "second plane". I'll just fly that Arrow until I am so good with it that it bores me, and then make my first few flights with the "real plane" nothing but landing approaches over and over again and not even worry about actuall flying the "good plane" until I have mastered landing it.

I'll always have an instructor with me when I am worried, like when I am just starting out or the first few flights of the "good plane". I should be ok, and if I fly the nice plane and think it is too much I can always put it on a shelf and go get a Cloud Dancer:-)

I think I am going to skip the whole "second plane" thing, but would recommend that most people don't. I have a lifetime of relevant experience to flying these planes, and a long history at excelling at exactly this type of thing. Most people probably should use a "low wing trainer" as a second plane.

Many people would classify the ARROW as a first and second plane...it is a 'first plane' when the control throws are toned down and your instructor is helping you along and through the solo. It is a 'second plane' when you start flying inverted, doing rolls, loops with rolls at the top and some knife edge flight.

You can instantly verify how good you will be flying an R/C plane. Go to your local hobby shop and pick up the simulator transmitter. Make sure the plane selected is a trainer plane, just to be fair, then take off and try to fly it around. You'll know within about ten seconds if you already know how to fly or if you'll need a little instruction. Oh, and with instructors that are helping you for free, a little humility will go a long way.

Best of luck! You'll do great.

Oh, I wasn't thinking I could just fly the real thing right away. The simulator is one of the things that made me decide to get into this. I really know a lot about simulation design, and with a simulator I will be able to teach myself a lot about flying a real plane. I will just instinctively know which aspects of the simulator are relevant to really flying an RC plane and which things are "probably a little off from reality". The plan is actually to buy the, I think it is called G3.5, simulator with my plane. I will have flown an Arrow in that simulator for probably a week or two before I ever even try to fly the real Arrow with an instructor (and the airfield I will fly at is even available for that sim:-).

I've read a lot about these planes deciding what to do to avoid buying an extra plane, and the fact that the Arrow is kind of like a first and second plane all rolled into one is why I am planning on going with it... and also why I am now planning on just skipping the whole second plane thing. Thanky you so much for confirming for me that ideas I have come up with are good ones.

The only question I have left in my mind is if I should actually start with a Sig Four Star instead of an Arrow. I am being conservative and going with the Arrow, but much of what I have read leads me to believe that I should really just get a Sig Four Star. Do you think I could use a Sig Four Star as a trainer? Many seem to think you can, but so far I have just been planning on playing it safe with an Arrow:-)

BUY THE ARROW!!!! I have flown my fair share of airplanes helping my buddies learn to fly and I love the Arrow. It is really one of the best all around trainer/ aerobatic planes you can buy. It is rock solid and easy to fly and can be pushed really hard when you want to. A buddy of mine recently changed his motor in his arrow to a TT Pro .46 and that thing was a missile! Didn't last long as he decided to eat the tail off my SPAD and crash both our planes!

Good luck man and don't underestimate the diificulty of R/C. I fly full scale planes as part of my Comercial pilot training and it takes far more hand eye coordination to Fly an R/C aircraft than a real one. I also have hundreds of hours in Simulation time on Microsoft Flight Sim and I can still fly that one better than the R/C sims.

Edit: BTW Flying Tiger I love your plane. The look and sound of the 4 stroke just never gets old to me. They make any plane look cool.

Yes, definately get the Arrow ARF. $114 C'mon, can't go wrong. I put the Evo training system motor in mine but haven't decided on a two blade or just stick with the 3-blade. I suppose my instructor will advise me.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. A lot cheaper if I crash it and it sounds like plenty of fun to start with. Now I just have to get past all the expenses I have this month so I can get one next month, haha. This was pretty bad timing to decide that I wanted an RC plane...

EDIT: Oh, I'm pretty sure my second plane (well, second model if I crash and Arrow or two, haha) will be a GP Super Skybolt 60 ARF. That thing looks awesome and people say it is easy to land.

After a few months of focused practice and regular sim time, both with an instructor, you'll be ready for the Skybolt. When you can land and take off with NO RESERVATIONS, ON CENTERLINE and with ten miles per hour of wind, then you'll be ready for the Skybolt. Remember, even the ARROW comes alive when the CG is set correctly as determined in flight testing. With my battery and receiver in the foam tray as depicted in the instructions, my ARROW just slightly drops the nose in an inverted 45 degree upline...just barely nose heavy. Perfect for a trainer! This testing was done with an almost EMPTY tank of gas, very important step!

If you had a competent instructor a 4* low wing symmetrical airfoil plane would be a wonderful trainer. Tail dragger planes are a little more tricky to handle on the ground, but not bad. I would still recommend jumping on the buddy box with someone else on their tricycle gear trainer for a few flights, especially when it comes to learning how to land. Many instructors own their own trainer and would have no problem helping you.

Stick with the sim...don't let up!

Yeah, I like this plan (...and the Skybolt:-). Looking around at planes it also appears as though you could use the engine and all of the electronics from the Arrow in the Pulse XT. So if I crash the Arrow beyond repair after I get decent, but still don't feel ready for the Skybolt, I will probably replace the Arrow with a Pulse XT for more training. I like how that works out.