Hey Guys,
Got my H9 Solo Sport all ready to fly again since the wing needed balanced and then recovered and with that fixed right, I hope.....I went out early Sunday morning with no one around for some fun!!! I got all fueled up and ready and started her up and finally took off. So far so good...this plane is flying level now and doing great! I love it when it all works right...then about 10 minutes into the flight the engine just died. Ok..fine, dead stick her in then and thank goodness I'm on the approach turn anyway (lucky!). I come in sweet but a little faster then most times and she settles down after two small bounces with no damage or a broken prop. I took her back to the pits and got her ready for another flight....in doing so I noticed the engine wouldn't turn at all! Hydrolock I thought, so I removed the plug but still no movement! [] I got home and took the engine a part and found a lot inside....I guessing it's from the wrong fuel or the cam bearing dried up and sent metal threw the engine or the piston ring came apart. You can see the blurry engine pic and the fuel bottles I used....clearly one mistake since one bottle says it's for 4 stroke engines and the other doesn't but both say 15%. The color is even the same! Now before this last flight I noticed the engine seemed hotter then normal and the exhaust had a grey ting to it which went all over the plane...it wasn't the simi clear oily mess as before. Now this engine has been put threw the ringer being on all my planes so far which means several crashes but what do you guys think? And why isn't that cam bearing sealed anyway? I've got to get another engine and wouldn't mind getting another Magnum 61 fs if I can.

wow that does not look good, looks like a combination of overheating and moisture in the bearings.

how much oil was in the fuel you were running? was it running particularly lean?

It says 15% on both jugs of fuel.....is that not enough for most 4 strokes? Moister in the bearing....never thought about that! I bet that got in there at some time, next engine I will make sure that bearing gets oiled more.

That amount of oil should be enough. Your engine manual probably recommends more, but Omega fuels use good quality oil which allows you to use a little less. My guess is that new fuel uses pure synthetic oil. Synthetics are fine but don't offer as good protection for a lean running engine. My guess is you were running it lean and not using enough good quality after-run oil. The chemicals in glow fuels attract water from the moisture in the air which can quickly rust un-oiled bearings.

i think he meant 15% nitro. but still it would have plenty of oil. i'm assuming that is a 2 stroke. never looked inside a 4 stroke rc engine to know what they look like. i dont know the differnce b/w 2 and 4 stroke fuel. if i had to guess the 4 stroke would have a little more oil because of more moving parts but i could be wrong. i'm sure someone will chime in that knows more about this than me. but i just always stick to 2 stroke fuel with 2 stroke engines and when i get a 4 stroke i will just stick to 4 stroke fuel with 4 stroke engines. but moisture could have gotten into your bearings and rusted and when they got broke loose from the starter and ran a little while all that rust ran through your engine. that greyish color you saw was more than likely metal shavings. which was probably from bearings and other stuff grinding down. i've had several bushing engines lock up on me and i had a silverish looking oil instead of dark brown/black oil on my planes. i'm sure there wouldn't be that much differnce. metal shavings are metal shavings.

This is the primary reason I don't like Morgan fuels. I can't find any information on how much oil they formulate. Are you sure the 15% you quote is oil content or nitro content?
If it is oil content then I'd say no, 15% is not enough for a 4 stroke.

What does your engine manufacturer recommend? I just acquired a Saito .62 and, while I don't have the manual in front of me, I believe they recommended 20% oil content. After it is well broken in you "might" get by with an 18% fuel content but ONLY if you run it carefully.

I've flown control line for years where they use a lot of the older iron piston/steel cylinder and plain bearing supported crankshaft technology. In an engine such as the venerable Fox 35 Stunt, an all castor fuel with MINIMUM of 28% oil is required. Even with the more modern ABC and ABN plain bearing engines a minimum of 22% with a 50/50 castor/synthetic blend is recommended for maximum life.

I have a 2 stroke Thunder Tiger 46 Pro in my trainer. It features ABN metallurgy and ball bearings. I am running Wildcat 2+4 stroke fuel with 18% all synthetic but I needle it a bit rich. No synthetic can protect against a lean run better than castor oils. At the end of the day we also run all the fuel out of the crankcase and prime with an all castor prime bottle to get some protection for the bearings.

This link explains why Wildcat says a 4-stroke engine needs MORE oil than 2-strokes:

http://www.wildcatfuels.com/container.html

FOUR STROKE FUEL FACTS
There are many myths about four strokes and fuel composition; we will simply state the facts.


First - Four stroke engines require more lubrication than do 2-stroke engines. This is do to the number of moving parts. Unlike a 2-stroke, a 4-stroke does not have the benefit of raw fuel and oil pumping through its crankcase for lubrication. A 4-stroke draws it's fuel in from the top of the cylinder by the down stoke of the piston. Lubrication is accomplished by blow-by at the BDC (bottom dead center) and run-down of oil through the lifter tubes. This oil must migrate to the bearings as well, therefore, volume is essential. (See disassembled 4-stroke -vs- 2-stroke below for comparision). Yes, despite the nonsense that some would try to get you to believe it's that simple.

Second - Wildcat recommends the lubrication package be totally synthetic. The use of synthetic oil is important in four stroke engines to prevent gumming and varnishing of the lifters and coking of the valves. Varnishing will occur on castor based fuels. This can lead to sticking valves, which will cause the valve set to get knocked out of time. Coking of the valves will cause improper seating of the valves causing a reduction in compression and incomplete combustion. Four stroke engines also have high exhaust gas temperatures and the use of synthetics greatly reduces carboning at the exhaust ports.

Third - Some fuel manufacturers claim that the number of moving parts in a 4-stroke is irrelevant to the oil content of the fuel, and they produce and recommend oil contents lower than that recommended by the engine manufacturers. Remember they do not provide the warranties for your engines they have no investment in your engine. Wildcat fuels meet or exceed the engine manufactures warranties of all common 4-stroke engines manufactured today. Because of the higher oil content, WILDCAT 2 & 4-CYCLE fuels can be run in any 2-stroke engine (except ducted fans) where a fuel with total synthetic oil is desired.

i just looked it up, the omega %15 has %17 oil, which is a little low, but shouldn't have coused problems, and the 4 stroke also has %17 so i don't think it was lack of lubricant, it might have been running too lean

Here's the info on their blends
[link=http://www.morganfuel.com/cp_blends.htm]Cool Power fuel blends[/link]
[link=http://www.morganfuel.com/omega_blends.htm]Omega fuel blends[/link]
[link=http://www.morganfuel.com/sw_blends.htm]Sidewinder fuel blends[/link]

Ken

I bet you guys are right....just ran it too lean for too long. []
Live and learn...right. LOL! I hope....

I've seen bearings that were so rusted they stopped moving and started to flatten on the exposed side, spewing metal shavings all over the crank case. I think people put way too much emphasis on exact brands of fuel. As long as you buy a quality well known brand, set the engine correctly, and use quality after-run oil you should be fine (400+ running hours). In fact, I have a few old (no longer made) engines that probably have more running time than that and still run like new! Two-stroke fuel runs four-strokes just fine, although some four-strokes like more nitro content.

Set your mixture at least every time you go out to the field. On my high performance engines I usually reset them as the temp/humidity changes even if I've already set it for the day.

i run my engines a bit rich, just because i have no need for that extra couple houndred rps

the grey oil at the start was a sign of metal to metal wear.most bearings failure is caused by rust which in most cases is the result of fuel left in the engine.alchol left in the engine will absorb any moisture in the air and after the alchol evaporates the water is left to cause the damage.nitro is also a contributing factor as it is a derivitiive of nitric acid and a corrosive and has a tendency to remove oil residue before it evaporates.this is one of the reasons for running your engine dry at the end of the day and what started the use of after run oils.

I have gone through 7 or 8 gallons of Omega fuel since I started flying without any problem at all.
Omega is the only brand available through our club, so I get a good discount buying by the case.
I did just recently (last week) switch to Wilcat 15% for my OS 91FS in my RV-4 and have noticed an increase in performance and the engine is running cooler.

Are these facts gained by experience? They go against anything I have learned from experience running 4 strokes for many years and heeding the advice of real experts plus using morgan omega fuels exclusively.

If you are refering to my post the answer is yes.
Like I said the Omega fuel is just fine but my 4 stroke in my RV-4 would run a bit hot being completely in the cowl. My LHS suggested the Wildcat and it did help. I will continue to use Omega in all my other airplanes, it is fine fuel.

I simply don't buy fuel if they don't list the percentages on the label. Think of going into an auto parts store and buying motor oil if they didn't list the viscosity on the front.

No I wasn't referring to your post

When you say you've had no problems at all does that mean you haven't fried an engine yet or is this based on a teardown and complete inspection of your engines?

I know a lot of C/L types who build/rebuild engines for a living. Most of them say whenever they get an engine which has been run on synthetic oil they always see scoring on the crank pin, excessive wear on the rod journals, peeling liners and other related issues. Virtually all synthetic oils have a lower flash point than castor oils. They will combust at temperatures a model engine can achieve. Modelers like the synthetics because they are easier to clean off your airplane. Sure, castor will cause varnish but offers the best lean run protection and rust protection of any oil. There were a whole slew of world calibre C/L stunt guys who experimented with synthetic lubricant based fuels back on the 80's. Every single one of them lost an engine. It's not unusual for these guys to get 2,000-3,000 seven minute patterns on a good engine. When they started using (and I quote) the "kool-aid" fuels their finely blueprinted and tuned engines, they were quickly ruined.

As I said, I use a fuel with 18% oil on my ABN ball bearing TT 46 Pro but I'm careful NOT to overlean it. Even at full throttle I can hear the cackle of it just hitting a four cycle stance. If I wanted to go all out I'd move up to a 20% oil. Sig Champion exclusively for my C/L engines.

For plain bearing modern engines (such as the OS FP and LA series) then a 22% blend of half synthetic and half castor get run through those.

For the plain bearing iron piston old metallurgy engines they get a MINIMUM of 25-28% oil which can be a 50/50 mix of synthetic and castor. You'll never get a Fox 35 to break between a 4 cycle and 2 cycle setting in the air unless you run it on 28% all castor fuel.

Would you run a modern 5W-20 oil in your 1960's Mopar muscle car or '32 Deuce? Doubt it...

i used to always run omega but the hobby shop i get stuff at said he was going to try to phase out the omega and try to only sell cool power. they are the same company i think but the cool power is synthetic. truth be told i have more power it feels like with cool power if i can get it tuned right but the omega seems to run cooler and make engines last a little longer. i never had engine problems until i swiched to cool power. one engine i had went 2 years on omega and 1 on cool power. then started losing power. just worn out. if i can get an engine to last me 2 years i'm doing real good. my planes and engines have hard lives.

No I haven't torn an engine apart, I am only refering to performance.
All my engines run smoothly and never dead stick unless I run out of fuel. I do run my engines rich at all times.

Ok guys, I won't use the Omega anymore and since I bought a new Saito 62 four stroke and the hobby store owner said that all he uses in all his four strokes is Magnum fuel. Has anyone ever used that?

Here's how Magnum describes their own fuel on the Magnum web site:

"...Magnum Fuels are manufactured from the finest ingredients available. People constantly ask about the ingredients, want to know how much oil is in the fuel, or how much nitro is really in Magnum #1. There is no standard answer for how much oil, etc. Each type fuel is blended for a specific application. And the recipe for Magnum #1, #2 and #3 is our little secret. Our stock answer is 'it has nitro methane, methanol, synthetic oil, and a few other things....'. "

Would you feed your family a new food without knowing what was in it? As I stated earlier, a fuel manufacturer won't get my business unless they prominently label the ingredients on the outside of the jug. I don't want to have to look it up on a web site.

To me, it's similar to going into a discount food store and buying an unmarked tin can which simply says "vegetable". Or "protein". Sorry, no.

I have a Magnum .52 and .70 4 stroke , Saito .56 two .72`s and two 100`s , an Evo .46 , two SuperTiger .40 , .51 ,61 &75. ,OS LA .25 and MAX.60. They have been flown on CoolPower, S.W and Omega .
After flying on the 3 different fuels I use Omega 15% and buy it 4 cases at a time and all my engines run great on it.
IMHO , they are all good products. The key, is learning to tune your engine correctly, here`s an example.
I built a GreatPlanes SkyBolt for the fun fly we had at MinnFlyers field. I did`nt have a chance to break the Satio 1.00 in. and wanted Mike to maiden it for me. I told him it had not been run yet and needed to be broke in and that it needed a few tanks run thru it first.
He said no problem , we`ll check it out and run it rich.
Long story short, he started it up, tweaked it a little rich , till it sounded right, and took her up put it thru her pace`s. He is the SkyBolt Driver, and I stood there with my mouth hanging open as he wrung it out. . No flame outs , not sputter , just hard flying.
Out of all my engines , this one has never flamed out, sputtered or give me a problem . Still on the same glow plug and it`s on 4th gallon of fuel. And MinnFlyer run`s CoolPower , but he set the engine to run on it by ear , not by fuel spec`s on the bottle.
I don`t believe it`s so much the fuel, as due`s paid. Skill comes from time sreved, when it comes to engine tuning.

I've been using Magnum fuels since I moved to Wichita. The owner of the LHS had testing done on Magnum and other fuels, and Magnum came back with just as much oil as others. I've put 6 gallons through my ST 40 and have not had a bit of fuel related problems with it. As far as using Magnum (12% & 15%), its been just fine for me. And he doesn't carry it just to make more profit - he mark his fuel up only $1.00 (he's shown me his invoices for the fuel). A lot of the guys in the club use Magnum and have no issues with it.

If in doubt of the oil content of any fuel, you could always add some caster oil just to be safe.

Hogflyer