rckowal

I'm a newbie to RC. I am learning to fly using a basic (no ailerons) electric trainer. I find myself "over controlling" it. It seems that it may be easier for me to learn to fly if the rudder & elevator controls were less responsive.

I am not in an area where training by instructors is available so I'm on my own. I would like to hear from any one that has used exponential control rates as well as rudder & elevator end point adjustments (throw limits) to learn to fly (or instructors). I have these capabilities in my transmitter but lack practical experience in how much to use.

Your suggestions will be much appreciated.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

First off, welcome to RCU. I hope that we can help you get airborne.

As far as using exponential on your trainer I HIGHLY DISCOURAGE using it. What you are doing is overcontrolling the plane. This is perfectly normal, every new pilot does the same thing. You need to learn to have a lighter touch on the sticks. If you use the radio to "cheat" this you will never develop the skills needed to fly correctly, the radio will simply become a crutch that you will not be able to do without.

The cause of overcontrolling usually boils down to one thing. The plane does not react instantly. What I mean by this is that when a student moves the stick they don't see the plane react immediately to the input so what they do is move the stick more, and the plane winds up moving more than you wanted it. Bingo, over control. What I teach my students is to fly and then put in small amount of control on the stick AND THEN WAIT for the plane to react before moving the stick more. If you do this you will find that it won't take long before you don't over control to the plane.

I would highly recommend that you do find an instructor. Even if you have to drive a distance to spend time with one you will find that the time and drive are worth every minute. 10 minutes with an instructor is better than hours apon hours here on RCU, because he see what you are doing and then "talk" you through doing things correctly.

Ken

Charlie P.

Agree. If you are overcontrolling it now you likely will still throw the sticks even with exponential. You just won't know how to compensate. If a little deflection isn't enough (we're all reactive to the visual when learning) you will still jamb the stick up or over, and with exponential it really takes off, so now you're WAY over corrected. And, if your initial correction was in the wrong direction (a good chance whan learning) you've lost fractions of seconds that could have been better spent.

Exponential is an advanced technique. Not a learnng aid.

bruce88123

48089 is one of many Warren, MI zip Codes and there are 15 clubs within 25 miles of that zip code.
Plug YOUR ZIP in at http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx or use the ZIP above to find a list of relatively close clubs and seek help. You can also ask around at the local hobby shops (LHS) for information on clubs.
I'm originally from Detroit (which Warren is a suburb of) and I KNOW there are clubs all over that area.

rckowal

Thanks for the suggestions RCKen & Charlie P.

I review what has happened after every flying session. I'm fairly sure that my over controlling is more due to excessive stick throw rather than reaction time or confusion about the direction of stick throw.

I don't mean to sound like I'm over confident, or just plain "cockey", but I've used an RC simulator quite a bit. Additionally, I am a retired full size airplane/sail plane pilot and a long time model airplane flyer (non RC though). So; right or wrong, I believe that I pretty well understand the basics.

What do you think about setting the rudder & elevator end points for less throw? Although I'm sure there will be times when full throw may be needed, it seems to me that being able to fly most flights is more important (at this stage) than is the less frequent ocassion when more control is needed.

bruce88123

I'm also a retired full scale pilot including competion aerobatics and I can promise you that this is different. I also instruct RC and was self taught RC many years ago and it was an expensive process but I wasn't flying electrics either. Lessening the throws MAY help some but it will also reduce the possibility of recovering from major errors that may occur.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

rckowal,
I can understand what you are saying here, but trust us when we advise this. Yes, it is too much stick throw. you are moving the stick too far. Please don't adjust the end points on the controls, this could lead to your not having enough throw when you need it. As was stated above, it's a "feel" that you need to learn. Nothing more, nothing less. This is actually one place where your full scale experience will actually hurt you. In a full scale plane your senses help you when are controlling the plane. You move the stick and you can see AND feel the plane reacting to that stick movement. Now with the RC plane you can't feel what the plane is doing any longer. As well as the point of viewing the plane has changed. You're not in the plane any longer. You are outside looking at the plane. It's a totally different perspective and you need to learn to react to that. Just the same way that you had to learn in the full scale. Things are different for RC planes and they need to be learned.

Not to slight you in any way, but this is probably the biggest reason why I suggest that beginners have a "plain jane" bare bones radio for their trainer. Using a computer radio makes it too easy for a beginner to try using "shortcuts" like this, and wind up in more trouble. As I said in my first post, using a crutch causes more problems than it fixes. If you try to rely on the radio you will never learn the skills you need to successfullly fly more advanced planes

Ken

rckowal

I now live in Ubly. RC clubs are scarce in this area.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

There are 7 clubs within a 50 mile drive of your area. As I said above, the drive would be well worth it for the benefit you get from spending time with an instructor

Ken

rckowal

Thanks RCKen. You've pretty much convinced me that using Expo or EPA is not a good option for student pilots.

Maybe you can offer some more related advice. The trainer I have is a powered glider type. It has no landing gear so it has to be hand launched. Where I have the most difficulty is in the hectic few seconds immediately following the launch. I am using one hand to launch & the other to hold the radio with a thumb on the rudder/elevator stick. Once I'm airborne, the controls become much more manageable.

I realize that some one to hand launch the model would help, but a hand launch by an un-skilled person can be more dangerous than what I'm doing. Short of getting a plane with landing gear, what can I do?

bruce88123

Put the rudder and elevator on the r/h stick. Hold and throw the plane with the right arm (assuming you are right handed). Regardless, keep your thumb OFF of the stick during the throw. You will NOT be able to hold it centered no matter how hard you try. Hold the radio with your non-throwing hand but NOT the stick. Throw/launch the plane and immediately PREPARE to control IF needed with the right hand. Many glider types require more of a push or shove than a throw also. Throwing too hard is also bad. Concentrate on wings level and the correct pitch attitude during launch.

Missileman

Looking at RC kens list of clubs.
I don't know anything about the Mid Michigan club and according to the AMA it only has 9 members.
The next closest is the Sanilac Club. It is a bit bigger and still in good driving range from you.
Some of the members of the Sanilac club are also members of the 2 clubs I belong to. The area clubs work together on fun flys and swap meets.
I also would suggest getting with one of these clubs at least to get you off on the right wing (right foot, get it )

rckowal

Hi RCKen,

If flight training with an instructor was as simple as just driving for awhile, I would consider it more strongly. Maybe things are different in your part of the country but I've encountered many complications when I tried to do so here in S.E. Michigan.

First I found that not all AMA clubs have instructors. When I went to one that did, they only do training on Tuesdays. What if the wind is strong, it's raining or the instructor decides to not make it to the field that day? I've called him & the Clubs President to schedule an appointment but they don't return my calls. I later learned that they could care less about new members since they have a contract with their fields owner that they will have no more than 100 members. They almost always have a waiting list of more than 25 people.

So I tried another club, I was told that their instructor did not have the appropriate equipment to "buddy train" me using my transmitter. They also have a similar policy regarding scheduled training which doesn't work with my personal schedule.

Although I really appreciate what volunteer instructors try to do; given the challenges I personally encountered seeking instruction, I decided to just go it alone. For the cost of gas, vehicle wear & tear driving to a field then no one shows up, etc. - I can bust up a lot of trainer models. I also have a simulator which has helped me immensely.

da Rock

Beginners, do not confuse overcontrol, throw, and exponential.

Overcontrol often comes from having your surface throws greater than needed. Throw is how much the surfaces move from full one way to full the other way.

Beginners often do what the previous posters have clearly described. They throw the stick too far for what the airplane needs. Or the surfaces move too far however much the beginner moves the stick.

And exponential does not change how far the surfaces go from full one way to full the other. So don't think of it as a remedy to overcontrolling. And don't think of it as affecting maximum throw. It doesn't.

It actually allows you to more finely control the surface around neutral. That will be quite useful to you after you've learned to control the airplane with some touch. You need to learn that touch and having pure control is important for that. But in the future there is an excellent probability that you will benefit from it's use. It is particularly valuable when flying thermal gliders for example. You can more finely control the elevator with it, yet you still have full movement of the elevator when you move the stick as far as it will move.

I flew today with a guy who has had trouble landing for over a year. He constantly overcontrolled the airplanes on approach. He started using exponential on the elevator and with the finer control, the approaches are quite smooth. He's actually rebuilding less. Actually got an airplane he calls, "old". But he learned the touch to fly on a basic TX and after some time made the move. He learned the basics and then added refinement.

red head

I'm a thumb man myself but something that might help you would be to use your thumb and fore finger. Sort of like using the inside holes on a control horn.

When I hand launch I sort of jam the tx into my right side, launch the plane then start controling. A lot of people try to control to soon and a lot of times it isn't needed, especially if the plane is trimed properly. Mine fly right out of my hands and I don't have to rush to take control. Also as said above -- in most cases you don't have to HEAVE the plane just launch it smoothly at a slighty up angle.

As far as your control is concerned --- just remember these planes are just like women, you treat them rough and they bite you, treat them smooth and easy and they treat you right. ENJOY !!! RED

starfire73

I belong to the Flying Eagles Club in Bay City, MI. We fly at the Middle Grounds near the Boys/Girls Club. They have a trainer night on Tuesdays, and I've never seen a Tuesday that didn't have an instructor available. There is a guy (Steve) who comes from Bad Axe, and brings his wife to Delta College. I see him probably once a week. He comes and flys with us while his wife is at class. Perhaps you could hook up with him. Let me know, and if you're interested I'll get his contact info next time I see him.

starfire73

The website for flying eagles...

http://www.flyingeaglesinc.org/

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

Well if you just have to go it alone do a couple of favors for yourself. toss the glider into the wind a couple of times just to get a level flight for a few feet for trim setting motor off. make sure it balances wingtip to wing tip as well as nose to tail.with the trims set try the same kind of launch with power on ...wings level pitch it straight out or at 3 o'clock maybe SLIGHTLY up. tiny control stick movements. establish level flight or slight climb under power DON"T turn yet ...slow it down until it starts to sink add power until it stops sinking now (if you can still see it) make your first turn with a very small stick input. gliders like trainers are set for level flight at a specific throttle setting, add power it should climb etc. good luck

da Rock

What OzMo and red head have already advised..............

Gliders are actually good for your situation. What is your's btw?
They can be very safely trimmed just by doing what's been suggested. Find a field with plenty of space ahead of you when you face directly into the wind. And test glide straight into the wind, power off or just enough to maintain headway. And adjust the elevator trim to get a long glide. Too short, give trim a couple clicks of up. If it stalls out of your hand, give a couple of clicks down. And if it tries to turn any time remember what the wind did just as you tossed and if the turn wasn't because of the wind, give the rudder a click to get rid of the turn.

It takes doing to get a feel for trimming their glide, but only way to learn is to do it. And you can learn to do it and do it without much drama or risk.

What was that glider?

rckowal

Thanks for the good advice.

Having flown free flight models for about 40 years, I'm very familiar with hand launched glide testing. This model is an Easy Star Electric.

Actually this glider is a motor glider so the stopped prop creates extra drag that makes glide trimming less practical. I've already glide tested it so I have some idea of what it will do. I'm also convinced that it's trimmed as well as it can be and the CG is placed correctly. A this point, my need is more solo "stick time".

da Rock

Well shucks, then you in high cotton.

I got a LOT of glider time too and just recently got back into that with a powered one. I did all the test glides with the prop just at idle at the toss. It's also a good way to sort of shuffle into the full power launches with less drama. And did it even with the ones with folding props.

You sound pretty sensible about what you're facing. But then you've got a modeling background and modelers are just smarter than average, ain't we.

rckowal

Starfire, Thanks much for your thoughtful offer, it's appreciated.

I'm pretty well convinced that more solo flight time is what I need rather than buddy time. Why? I've already soloed. I don't see that I have any problems with the flight basics. I've flown this bird about a dozen times & only crashed twice.

Maybe buddy training could help me to master the sticks so I don't over control as much. But sooner or later, the "training wheels" will have to come off. Then I'll be flying on my own again. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel I just need more time on the field to master the controls.

But please keep that offer open. If I find that I'm not progressing on my own, I
would like to be able to take advantage of your hospitality.

Best regards, Richard

bruce88123

The idea behind "Buddy flying" IS to let you take off the training wheels sooner. You WOULD be in full control of the plane and allowed to make mistakes and attempt to make (or make) recoveries. The instructor is there to stop the plane from that one last dive into the ground (or tree). He should give you EVERY opportunity to save the plane yourself and intervene only to save the plane if that is the way you want it. "Buddy flying" can be done at many different levels of assistance. You and the instructor just need to agree at what point he should intervene (or not). He can also coach you and improve your techniques.

Bonified Wingnut

We used to play you guys in high school football. I live out in Millington.
There aint as many around here as there is supossedly 3 on that list probably don't exist . As A matter of fact I am On Birch run Road right now and there isn't any airfield for miles that I know of. I know of one but it aint on the list.
If you wanna try the expo's -40 will soften it up a bit.. and then work your way back to 0 as you get to know the plane.

All of this advice and I didn't see anyboy give you what you were looking for.

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

Rckowal,
well I guess trimming won't be much of an issue! do go visit one or more of those clubs if you get a chance. even a couple times on a buddy box would be extremely helpful. Also it is a rewarding experience just to meet fellow modelers.