Foxy

Hi Guys,

It'll be nice to meet some of you plane guys at long last, til now I've spent all my time in the car forums (I'm an RCU car mod as my avatar suggests).
Bit of background about me, I'm 30, soon to be 31 and I've had a radio transmitter in my hand since about the age of 9, always a car transmitter so far though... I'm experienced with radio systems (but not 4 or more channel), electric power and nitro in as far as they relate to cars. I do not know the FIRST THING about RC planes though, but I have a feeling that's all about to change...

Basically I'm bored of racing on land (been nitro racing for many years), so I got myself a couple of large scale gas cars for messing around (quick n easy, no fuss gasoline engines), and now I'm thinking I want a plane too (but not a gasoline one just yet! lol).

I looked through some of the other threads, and RCKen's beginner plane thread (nice post that Ken, cheers). But to be honest, there's such a large array of planes available, I didn't know where to start.

I'm not sure if I need a trainer for the total noob. I'm very familiar with flight dynamics, I can fly any flight sim on the PC, I can maintain altitude in a turn, operate the rudder correctly, I understand the basics of yaw, pitch, roll and angle of attack, I understand what each control surface on the plane does and why it does it, and I do plan to pick up the G4 simulator software, but also a plane at about the same time. I'm one of those impatient people that jumps in and solves the problems later. To be honest, it's my way, and it's always worked out for me (learning the hard way, by experience).

I used to be a semi pro (computer) gamer, I only mention this cos I want readers to understand that my hand-eye coordination is unnaturally good, and I also have a natural talent for hand operated control methods of any kind. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just making sure that I get the correct advice. I wouldn't want to invest in a noob trainer and then find after just 2 days I want something more advanced. I don't have any friends who fly that I know of, and I'm not aware of any clubs, though I believe I know where there may be one, my mother-in-law-to-be tells me she sees people flying model planes above the old abandoned airport (seems like a logical place!). So I will be able to find people to learn from, HOWEVER, unless someone tells me this is utterly impossible, I plan to learn on my own, either I am as good as I think I am and I can pull it off, or I am making a huge mistake, I'll let you guys tell me on that one, but I believe I can probably do it without destroying the plane. I'm not the kind of person that will take off and start pulling high G turns without a thought for how I'm going to land it. I'll start by taking off only a few feet, in a straight line and landing again. Then I'll repeat, trying a 90 degree turn then landing, etc, etc, and get more advanced as I go. I'm very methodical like that.

So, bearing all that in mind, I'm looking for a plane that is not too large (5ft or less wingspan), electric or nitro (I'm experienced with nitro engines in cars, let me know if this isn't really gonna help me), and I want it realistic looking. This is important to me, I don't one of those bizarre looking things, I want a traditional plane-looking model. I was looking at the Cloud Dancer 40 ARF, I have always had good experience with Thunder Tiger surface products, but I am a little concerned about local support (I will be investigating tonight what support I can get locally for which brands). I think that kind of plane looks really nice, and is the kind of thing I can see myself flying. That's not to say I'm not intersted in suggestions of quite different planes to that one, just as long as they look like planes and not space ships.

Please give me any advice you think I might find helpful, especially but not limited to, the area of plane suggestions and self teaching techniques. A few different marques would be nice to choose from, so that I end up with a suggestion that I probably will find I have local support for. Knock yourselves out! Sorry for the essay! Santa is waiting for my request with baited breath.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I've put together a list of planes that make good trainers and second planes. All of them on the list are proven planes that are well suited for successfully letting students learn to fly, or advance to a second plane. Check out the list here
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4537845/tm.htm] Looking for a trainer- what's available. (Updated 8-16-07) [/link]

Hope this helps

Ken

Foxy

Yeh, I looked at it, and I looked at about 20 models, but I have no clue which to select, or why! I fixed on the Cloud Dancer cos I like the way it looks, but I've no idea if it's the right plane for me, I guess I'm looking as much for encouragement and general ideas for my direction as well as a particular model. What kind of plane did you learn with Ken?

bubbagates

My Feedback: (32)

Foxy,

Your car experience is defenitely going to help out here. One thig to remember is airplane glow engines do not turn near as much rpm's as your cars do and they do require more oil content. Most of the glow fuel used by planes is 17% (Cool Power) or higher. Higher is always better.

Tuning will be a bit different because as you go up in altitude your engine will lean a bit so tuning for max rpm is gonnan quickly eat the engnine alive, so you tune for max then back off about 200 or 300 rpm.

Center of Gravity (balance) is extremely important. There is a little saying about this, a nose heavy planes flies but not well, a tail heavy plane flying just once. What this means is a nost heavy plane will fly jsut land really fast and always want to drop the nose, a tail heavy plane will want to raise the nose which stalls the wing and the plane looses all lift.

Now the most common thing you will hear on here is get an instructor, I recommend that as well, he can help you verify your setup, show you how to properly tune the engine and hook you onto a buddy box until you are confortable.

You car radio will not work with a plane.

The biggest differenc is a plane flies in 3 dimensions where a car runs in two. In a car you have left/right, then back/forward, in a plane you have left/right, forward and up/down.

Grab a cold one, read Ken's recommended planes and ask loads of stuff

Foxy

Thanks bubba (edited, sorry!), I knew my car radios didn't have enough channels, and that nitro info is helpful too, I had considered air density and wondered if it had a role to play in tuning.

I just had a look in a local online store, and they have the TTR Cloud Dancer ARF .40, so maybe I got lucky with the one that jumped out at me, and I like the idea of optional retractable landing gear too. Anybody got any thoughts about that particular plane as a first plane for a confident beginner? Getting an instructor will prove tough, I'm sure, but I will look into it. 3d movement is not a problem for me, honestly.

Mmmm, cold one, what a good idea.

ro347

My Feedback: (13)

If i were to do it all over again(pick my first plane)...I wouldnt go based on looks. Choose something that has excellent reviews and is cost effective. If you put in the time...you will want and/or out grow your first plane pretty quickly - or have to make repairs. Save the real cool looking expensive planes till later down the road when you REALLY know how to fly and less likely to damage your "investment". I would say the 3rd plane in. Just my opinion. I spent alot on my first plane and now it sits in the corner of my basement. I could have bought 2 planes fully equipped with what I spent on one. In hind-sight, it was a waste of $$$. At first its all about gaining the experience, planes dont look cool until you really learn how to fly them.

Foxy

Thanks for the advice. Ok, I'm still looking around and while I was getting the cold ones in, I thought of a couple of questions...

ro347...the third one in, you mean third down? The Goldberg Freedom 20 trainer? If so, I think it's a cool looking plane...that's a definite possibility, thanks.

What kind of flight time do you get from the small electric park flyers?
What kind of flight time do you get from a large-ish .40 like the TTR I mentioned (from one tank)?
Assuming I had an instructor, how many hours of instructor based flight does an average to natural beginner pilot need before going solo for the first time?

rwright142

Welcome from the "dark side"

One thing that I tell people wanting to get into RC flying is to visit a local club before you buy anything. They may have a trainer plane for you to fly and therefore they (an instructor) can assess your skills and put you in a plane that fits.

I hear a lot of people say they can fly a simulator with no problems, but get them on the sticks of a real RC plane and it's a different story. No one here can tell you with 100% certainty that you can skip the trainer and go on right to a more advance plane. You may very well have the skills and I can appreciate you not wanting to waste your time and money on a plane that is below you skill level, but what if it isn't?

Checking out a local club first will be the best way to put you in the cockpit that is going to be safe but challenging for you.

Good luck!

Foxy

Yeh, good advice for sure, I will check out the local club(s). I'm starting to think about a small electric park flier to start with, something I can crash (lightly) and not worry about destroying, a small and cheapfirst plane, just to get 'some' skills. Money is not really the issue, if it turns out I can fly, I can afford to then get a 'good' plane, though of course I don't really want to be throwing the bucks away. A simple [link=http://rcelefsina.gr/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74]200E 4ch brushless RTF, like the Kyosho Mustang[/link] with a 2 foot wingspan, but I know that's not gonna excite me for long. For me a plane has to go RRRRRRREEEEEEEAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW as it goes past.

EDIT: PS Eventually, I'd like to get into pylon racing (that is what it's called isn't it? Those races where they fly through the gates?).

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Foxy,
I'm sorry that my first answer was so curt. I was trying to finish up installing a new stove. Our old one gave up the ghost yesterday trying to finish cooking Thanksgiving day turkey. We got the bird cooked, but took an extra 2 hours to get it finished. So we had to go out and get a new one today.

As far as how long a glow powered plane can fly, the easiest answer would be that it will more than likely outlast you. Most 40-60 size trainers will get anywhere from 12-25 minutes flying time. But you'll find that when you are flying 10-13 minutes is a really LONG flight and it's more than time to land. Especially when you are learning to fly, that amount of time can seem like an eternity. When I am training students I usually make the flights 11 minutes and then bring them down. That's because after they are concentrating for that amount of time they start making mistakes.

Ken

Foxy

No probs Ken thanks again. What do you think about just trying out with a cheap electric park flier? Or do you think I could go for something a bit better straight away...

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Foxy,
If you want my honest advice I would say to just get a trainer and take the plunge. The problem I have found with people trying to teach themselves with a cheap little plane, or a simulator, is that they can sometimes develop bad habits that may have to be un-learned. With your time on cars you would probably advance quickly with an instructor helping you. Stick time on other RC vehicles really helps you out because you already have overcontrol and stick reversal beaten. I had a student once that had car experience and I had him soloed in about 5 flying sessions. Plus, you'll enjoy the experience much more when you're flying and not crashing all the time!!!

Ken

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Most of the electric park flyers are not really designed to learn with. If you are seriuos about learning, you need to get a trainer that has the ability to have a buddy box for your instructor. Once you have mastered the trainer then some of the park flyers will help you out. Good Luck, Dave

Foxy

You're probably right, and I don't know if it means anything but until about three years ago, I used to drive cars with sticks. I definitely have a talent for spacial awareness, it's always my strong point on IQ tests, I can write upside down and reversed at the same time without any effort, I have no problem putting myself 'mentally' in the cockpit, no matter where my physical being is. Here is the planes page of the only real plane shop I can find anywhere near me, does anything stand out to you as a good start? http://rcelefsina.gr/catalog/index.php?cPath=22 I realise this is a very limited selection, but unfortunately this is Greece. I do expect to find more shops, but not many are web present here, it's the dark ages by comparison with the US.

Foxy

After reading a few other posts, I want to point out that I would not fall victim to the panic, pull up syndrome, if I get upside down, I assure you all that would not phase me, I would roll right back around or naturally dive (causing a climb) and one of the things I'm particularly looking forward to is rolling the wings vertical and putting on a high G turn. I definitely want a plane with aileron control from the very start, even if I won't be pulling tight turns from the start

PS> How do I know if it has buddy box support? Or is that a radio option, as I suspect it must be...

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

From that list, I would go with the Thunder Tiger 40 trainer.

Foxy,
I understand that your brain "knows" what you should do. But the thing about flying is that you need to teach your fingers how to react. When a student is training I teach them to constantly talk themselves through what they are doing. For instance. Right aileron, hold it, hold it, hold it, now left aileron to level the wings. Especially when the plane is coming towards you. The reason for doing this is that these types of things HAVE to be come instinct. My students ask me how long they have to do this. I tell them that they will know when they can stop doing it because one day they will just start doing it automatically and won't have to think about it. Until that time you're at a big risk of plowing the plane into the ground. Yes, you may know what you were supposed to do in a given incident. But at times of panic you'll forget about all that and just react, and usually react wrong. This is completely normal. Every pilot does it. Heck, even veterans with years of experience have this happen to them from time to time as well. The best thing to do when meeting an instructor is to just go in with a clean slate, let him tell you what you need to know. Many times preconceived notions of beginners can turn out to be wrong.

Ken

Foxy

Alright, I'll leave the rest until I get to speak to a trainer and try a club loaner. You're right I can't know what to expect until I try it. Thanks all for the advice and the wake up call, that no matter what I THINK I can do, I won't know until I try. And at that point, it will be handy to have an instructor around. I just hope I can find one, or I'm in for an expensive learning curve! Last question... Is there a guide to the control mappings of a default set up 4 ch radio? Eg, elevators on which stick, ailerons on which stick, throttle where, etc??? Thanks...

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

These are the standard modes for transmitters. Here in the US most pilots (but not all) fly mode 2. A lot of which mode you learn may depend on your instructor.

Ken

Foxy

Haha! That's great, even without having a clue, mode 2 is exactly what I wanted it to be! Bonus. Thanks yet again Ken.

Bass1

The neat thing about the Thunder Tiger Easy 40 trainer is you can start out with the flat bottom wing then after becoming proficient with that configuration, purchase the asymmetrical wing as the second step. Basically you get 2 airplanes with different flying qualities for the price of 1 and 1/2. Then you can move up to that "super dooper" airframe with a fully symmetrical airfoil that really brings on the "PUCKER FACTOR"

Foxy

What does the symmetrical wing do for the flying characteristics? I know a flat bottom wing is most stable, but what do you actually gain from the symmetrical one? Also, if you misjudge it and run out of fuel, they glide nicely so you can land em right?

Bass1

basically, a fully symmetrical wing is desirable for all out aerobatics. The airplane will exhibit the same flight characteristics while inverted as it does "right side up". Better performance in negative g maneuvers. Now if I was flying a full scale airplane carrying my family on a cross country trip, I'd opt for a nice flat bottom wing Cessna.

Insanemoondoggie

foxy , RCKen is telling it to you straight up . hook up with a good Club if you can. There is a huge difference between 2D and 3D , but your back ground in trucks and cars will an asset.
As far as engines go, Same as with ground pounders , don`t run lean . Biggest difference is , an airplane needs to be a couple clicks rich on the ground , as they lean out in the air.
Self taught is a hard way to go, been there , done that. I`m very proud of the fact I`m self taught , but sometimes I`m just to hard headed , for my own good.
Happy Landings
Insane

fozjared

for your first radio, might i suggest a spektrum brand (yes that is the correct spelling for the brand name) DX-7.. oh and it will most likely be your last radio as well.. super radio, and it is also heli capable too if you ever get interested in heli's! i love my dx-7, very programmable, and user friendly imo, never have any "glitches" causing a crash, never have to worry about turning on your radio and shooting down someone's plane, or vice versa! never worry about freq. pins etc.. i would recommend a trainer plane, but since you have some experience, and dont want to have to wish for a next step plane after a few flights, i could recommend a semi sporty plane, actually what i bought as my second plane, i would most definitely recommend a hangar 9 cessna value series plane, an advanced trainer with a semi-symmetrical airfoil, it does the very best scale touch and go's with an evolution .46 2 stroke and the dx-7! i loved that plane! very pretty, and sporty enough for basic aerobatics (loops, rolls etc.) since it does have a semi symmetrical airfoil!

Mr67Stang

Welcome Foxy42. Well if you take the advice given here you are in for a real treat. The bad news is you will crash... eventually and you will sell all of your R/C cars to buy more planes. I know, I did both of these things. The good news is you won't care about either and just can't wait to get back in the air. I will admit that I only skimmed thru the thread here and did not see if anyone had addresses your statement about taking the plane for a short hop then land then another short hop with a 90 degree turn and land again. This is a bad idea. This further exemplifies the need for experienced instruction. Your cars were not effected by wind like your plane will be. Always take off into the wind and land into the wind as best as possible. This means when you take off once you make a turn you are committed to flying around a complete curcuit. Unless of course you have a very large area to fly in and do not mind walking to go get your plane. Sure there is some pride in saying I taught myself to fly. But I could have had a few more planes and equipment for what it cost me in cash. Someone without that cash to keep buying back in would simply give up and go on thinking this is the worst hobby ever.