I want to get my first plane, and I'd like to be able to reuse something for when I'm ready for a better plane. Are there RTF's that come with worthwhile electronics, or is it better to get an ARF and a separate radio? Also, I think ailerons are cool. I'm hoping for something that has ailerons, but can leave them alone for first few flights while learning basics.

Thanks.

Planes with ailerons are built different than the 3 channel planes that do not have ailerons. The 3 ch planes have more dihedral to help induce some roll coupling with rudder use to help the plane turn. So if you get a 4 ch plane with ailerons do get used to using the ailerons imediately. In fact what is very common is that most people only use the ailerons and elevator and almost never use their rudder. Learning to use all off your control surfaces is of course the best way but I will start training a student where they only have to worry about the right stick at first (ailerons/elevator) I will set a constant throttle speed for them and have them practice flying the pattern around the feild. Also at this time I am performing all of the take offs and landings which is a point in which knowing how to use your rudder is important.

Anyway you asked if any of these RTFs come with worthwhile electronics. Yes some do. None of them come with top of the line stuff but it is very usible for your first plane and on into about your third depending how quickly you advance. You will eventually whant a computer radio and none of them come with that, to the best of my knowledge. Also anyone who is starting out (read as: "does not already have 6 or more planes") should probably get one of the new 2.4 Ghz transmitters. The reason I do not have one is that it would cost me $300 to get the transmitter and another $1200 for all the new receivers I would have to buy to outfit my planes.

If you are looking at the little foam RTF planes that range in price from $50 - $200 then no. those electronics are junk. This hobby is the very derivation of the old adage, "You get what you pay for." One of the best values right now is the [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCXF4**&P=ML]Tower Trainer 40 RTF[/link]. There are others that are better but this is the best value in my opinion.

Another good option is to get a plane with everything you need. There are many planes out there that have a good beginning radio, servos engine and they usually even come with a simulator to get your feet wet before you take it outside. Of course now for the disclaimer before I get flamed. You should always (if you have the opportunity) have a qualified trainer show you the ropes at a designated airfield. Make sure you get AMA and be prepared for your knees to knock for a while.

Here are some options:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...=LXEXK2**&P=ML
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...=LXMU53**&P=ML
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN2475
and this is new from horizon
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN4400

There is also a mustang and a raptor from Horizon but I have never flown them or seen them fly so if you go that road it will look good but training ability in my opinion is questionable.

Or you can get an ARF and ask for help with the assembly, and buy electronics that are both re-usable and expandable. Expandable meaning a transmitter that is model memory capable. Then all you have to do is buy receiver packs (receiver and servos and a battery pack) for your frequency (if 72 MHz), or something like the Spektyrum DX7 or Airtronics RDS8000, or Futaba FASST systems. All of these can be expanded using the original TX.

CGr.

You never said if you were looking for glow or electric?
Are you going to join a club and get an instructor?
What kind of budget are you working with?
Answers to these questions will result in better answers to yours.

I'm looking into electric planes, sorry I forgot to mention. I do plan on joining a club, but haven't thought about a trainer. I was hoping to spend something like $300 if I could reuse some of the electonics, otherwise I would get a really cheap RTF. Ideally I would like some fairly decent electronics in a cheap piece of flying styrofoam or something.

If I am to buy a separate radio and electronics, I am confused by the "mini, micro, and sub-micro" servos; which is the right setup for a beginner? Are the micro and sub-micro receivers OK to use with larger, heavier planes or only "park flyers"?

Last question (for now) is what parts of the plane to beginners tend to break the most? Should I buy an extra set of main wing, tail, and propellers?

Everyone has been so helpful, thanks. When I was a little kid, I used to get Toweer Hobbies catalog and dream of flying. The fact that these dreams are about to come true is very exciting! Thanks again.

So I looked at some links above, which are gas powered, and am wondering why I wasn't considering gas.

What are advantages/disadvantages for gas/electric (and for a newbie?)

Thanks

In your situation, and willingness to join a club where you will get proper instruction on a buddy box I will recommend the Electricstar.
Ready to fly with all brand name (Futaba) quality radio gear. $199 but you do need to buy flight battery (I would buy 2) and charger seperately. Less than $100 total.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...=LXNVC0**&P=ML
I would get an extra prop or two and thats about it for now. Most other damage can be repaired but the likelyhood of you crashing while learning on a buddy box are really low.
The airplane is make by Hobbico which is a major brand that most local hobby shops can readily get you anything you need.

Have a look at the Tower Hobbies Electricstar: [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNVC0**&P=ML]Click me![/link]

The price is right... though you also have to buy battery packs.

All of this stuff is re-usable, and the radio is suitable and able to handle other 4 channel planes.

This is a decent sized plane so you'll have an easier time controlling it, and it will be easier to see once in the air.

WOW I was typimg while you were
Actually it is called Glow or Nitro. (we do actually fly gasoline engine planes)
With an instructor I think glow is the best way to go. No waiting for batteries to recharge, just re-fuel and go and they do handle wind better.

Yup, initially glow has a lower start up cost, as you are spreading the fuel costs out over the long term.

That plus the ease of tuning an engine up for a newbie and getting them going, makes glow the planes of choice for training.

At our field we have free pilot training programs every other Saturday morning.

There is one person who does nothing but tune up engines for new arrivals.

Surprizingly this is less problematic than dealing with electric planes, as most glows work exactly the same way and there are few variables.

When a newbie arrives with an electric trainer, there is typically a lot of consternation and delays while everyone figures out the nuances of their ESC programming and hookups, because invariable the neophyte forgot to bring in all of their manuals.

Then they arrive only with a single set of batteries and no fast charging equipment..., etc.

If you are interested in electrics:


Easy Star - RTF - $175

Great plane for new flyers!
Super tough foam. Good parkflyer and a good glider
In the US the RTF package comes with a 72 MHz radio
system that can be used to fly other planes

http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/240025.asp
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXFXV0&P=ML
Easy Star - ARF - Add you own radio gear
http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/240009.asp
Build Thread
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350408
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=459096
Videos
http://plawner.org/video/easygo.wmv
http://plawner.org/video/easystar.wmv
Mods, upgrades and more
http://www.mpx-easystar.de/
Add Ailerons - Start at post 195
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=13&pp=15
Travel Box
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5&goto=newpost



All Hitec and/or Multiplex components.

The problem with electrics as someone briefly mentioned earlier is:
1. You must wait to charge batteries in between flights... Even with a quick charger if you don't have several sets you will fly for a few minutes and then sit and wait. With glow motors it is simply fuel and fly. The bad part about glow motors is they are messy and you have to break them in and tune them to get optimal performance and alleviate the possiblity of dead sticks.
2. Initially the cost of electrics is high. Getting a decent speed control motor batteries along with the other electronics for a small electric adds up quick. For a glow plane you can be up and running at the field for around $300 but when you run out of fuel you are done until your next trip to the hobby store.
3. Because electrics are traditionally smaller they are harder to see and orientate especially for the new pilot. With glow aircraft the planes and generally larger and easier to see and pilot. A small plane can be more twitchy and hard to control for dumb thumbs. On the plus side smaller planes seem to be generally more durable because of the weight and can handle rough landings and take offs.

I am sure there are many many more comparisons but you get the idea... If money is an issue for starting out I suggest glow. You will learn more about the hobby in general and save a few bucks too. Most glow planes that are RTF have very user friendly motors and will give you little or no problems. Electrics are nice because they are simply plug in the battery and fly with no fuss and mess.

Good luck and use an instructor if you can with whatever method you choose to use.

I have to chime in on the Glow - Electric comparisons for a beginner.

First off I have both and am about to add a 45CC gas plane to my hanger. I've been flying for about 4 years now and for a newbe I have a strong preference for electric. Yes they do not handle wind as well but the maintenance is much simpler and batteries are much less expensive. I've a dual chager that can charge two at a time and with Lipos as cheap as 20$ each now I fly all day with only minimal inturruptions by haveing 5 batteries and 2 chargers. Yes a bit of an up front investment but with fuel at 30$ a gallon my glow flying gets pricey too. Electric is less expensive to start for the bird, Less intensive on the maintenance side and as mentioned before less of a mess. Another big plus is that most starter planes are foam. I'm busted a plane into multiple sections in a bad crash and been back in the air in 20 minutes by the use of foam safe ca. I still have my first 3D plane. It was white foam but by now it is is criss crossed by yellow CA lines and still fly's quite well. That said if you are willing to put in the work a for repairs when (yes when, we all plant them eventually) the time comes the electricstar looks very nice and there is a 25$ adaptor that will allow you to connect the radio to your computer and run the free FMS flight simulator.
There is also a dummy controller available most commonly under the name Eskay that comes bundled with the free FMS flight simulator software. It is a great way to learn the feather touch needed in flying before risking your new plane.

Now that I've expounded the value of electric I will also say that while it is fun I still love the feel of fireing up my Nitro planes. There is just something that electric cannot capture in that experience. The planes listed above are all good choices but I'd go with either the Nexstar or the Alpha 40 DSM2 RTF. The Nexstar as it is a well know, very reliable aircraft and the Alpha as it looks to be a very nice plane from a reputable company with the biggest plus for me a DSM radio which will protect you and fellow flyers by protecting your frequency.

Either will work and we all have our preferences. Find a local club if you can. Most will have at least two qualified trainers to get yoou in the air whichever way you choose to go. My biggest suggestion is get the flight sim. It will give you the basics and a feel for the radio that will save you allot of trial an error at the field and likely allot of money. Then get yourself someone to teach. Most flyers will be glad to help it is the general mentality of the hobby. If you can a good club and AMA membership will protect you. I had a new P-61 Nitro plane have an aileron servo failure on it's first flight. I was able to dump the plane but it was heading straight for a 100K$ RV before I put it into the ground. I'm not big promoter of AMA and I started without it but the insurance you have if you fly at an AMA field can save you if you hit something or worse yet someone.

Enjoy, I find this hobby one of my relaxing and I never am flying alone.

And of course, don't forget the potential benefit of the use of your home owners insurance should you decide to recharge indoors. There are definite fire hazards with electrics that no-one seems to have mentioned in the above. This scores in the negative column.

Even if you use something like a LiPo Sack, there is still an awful lot of hazardous smoke should one go up on you. If you decide to go electric, charge outdoors and away from anything you value, preferably on concrete with the batteries inside something that is flame resistant (like, as I mentioned, the Lipo Sack).

I have electrics, but much prefer the glows, for many reasons, most of which were already mentioned.

CGr.

You do not have to fly at an AMA field to be covered under AMA insurance and it is a very cheap price to pay compared to what you could be liable for if you do have an accident. For people under 19 it is only $1 per year, it is a no brainer.
Here is a copy of the AMA membership manual:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/Memanual.PDF

What's the difference in flight time between a tank of gas a and a decent battery?

It varies greatly depending on the model but flight time is not much difference.
15 minutes on either one is a very long flight. I typically fly about 8 to 10 minutes and usually I am ready to land.
On my glow planes, most of my flights I have near a half tank of fuel left after a typical flight, in fact I can only remember actually running out of fuel in flight maybe 4 or 5 times total.

Also what's the recharge time for a battery, with say a $130 "peak" charger? There's a lot to know!

Fastest safe charge rate for LiPo's is 1 hour.

With A123 batteries you can get this down to 15 minutes.

So with LiPo's you may need 2 or 3 packs to keep you flying constantly.

This assumes that after you fly, you'll shoot the breeze for a little while before flying again, between flights.

Since I can get 30+ minutes on my SuperSportster EP, two packs suffice to keep it flying all day, however I typically bring out enough packs for 2 or 3 hours of non-stop flight.

what's the volume of a tank of gas?

Again depends on the model and engine size but 40 size trainer would have about a 10 oz. tank.

Which at translates roughly to about 12-16 minutes of flight time dependant upon throttle management.

Thanks a lot guys.

I too have both glow and electric. I am in the military and before I flew the first time I got months of practice on Realflight G2. It is an indespensable tool for those that want to get to soloing sooner. But, nothing but experience or a good trainer to look over your shoulder will keep you from doing the stupid stuff. As I said before I flew for months on the simulator then went out to the field with my new nexstar and took it off sucessfully and landed it with no help... Not a problem. Well I had a dead stick and brought it down hard later and pulled out the landing gear on a rope on the ground. I was a little miffed and it was an easy fix but I didn't have my stuff with me. The next day I went to the field in a hurry to get back up in the air. I got everything set up started the engine taxi the plane to the runway and took off. The plane banked hard to the left and did a cartwheel. Being a nube and in a hurry I forgot to hook up the ailerons. I was able to repair it and fly again the next day but it would have been nice to have never been in that situation. It could easily have happened with electric or gas. I guess my point is take your time watch what you are doing and if at all possible have somebody to look over your shoulder for a while to keep you from doing stupid stuff.

And lastly I want to tout the Nexstar. The motor is very powerful for the size of aircraft. The electronics are all futaba and everything you can use in another plane at a later date even if the nexstar outlives it's usefulness. It has speed brakes and other features that make it fly stable even as slow as about 6 miles an hour (I had fun trying to see how slow I could fly) It is very quiet and when you get better at flying you can take the flaps and stuff off and perform more aerobatic maneuvers. The plane literally went together in about 10 minutes and the only waiting I had to do was for the battery to charge in the controller and plane. There really is nothing like the smell of nitro burning in the morning .