I'm back in the r/c hobby after a 10 year vacation. I'm gonna teach my 6 yr. old son how to fly using an Avistar. But it comes to my surprise and dismay that the inexpensive radio that came with the Avistar has a push button trainer switch. I hate to hold that darn thing in while my son is learning to fly, that will get old fast.

ok... here's my question,

What are they thinking when they decided to use a button that one has to hold in vs. putting a toggle switch that the instructor could just flip?

is a toggle switch that more expensive?

Anyone else annoyed by this?



jack

Hitec radios use a toggle. Really a nice feature on a busy training day at the field. The small buttons can really take a toll after 3 or 4 hours on your finger.
EXCAP232

I have never experienced this, me trying to teach someone would be like a dead person leading the blind... but it seems that it may be so that its something you don't have to think about, like you move your hand to take control and you have it instead of forgetting to flip it, I donno maybe the are that much more expencsive...

The entry-level Futaba radios have that little push button on them. The higher-end radios have a momentary bat-switch (toggle switch) that your left index finger hold in the up position to give the student control. For the instructor to regain control he just lets go of the switch.

It is a LOT more comfortable than the push-button. I guess they figure the entry-level 4 channel radios are more likely to be the trainee radio instead of the trainER radio.

By the way, congratulations on getting your son interested in RC flight! THAT is way cool.

My 6XAS has a push button, which I don't believe is a entry level radio..

Esanger,

You are correct, I would not consider the 6XAS an entry level radio. I have never used one, or even had the opportunity to look closely at one though.

I have no experience with any Futabas except a 4 channel that came with my brothers Superstar, and a 7U, 8U and a 9C that my buddy just bought. Of those four, the 4 channel is the only one that has the push button trainer function. Did not mean to slight any other lines, just citing from my (limited) experience.

Interesting that they used the push-button for a trainer switch. It takes the left thumb off of the stick, where the toggle switch allows the instructor to keep both thumbs at the ready. Plus, my buddy complained that his thumb kept getting cramped while training my brother.

Wow 6 years old. Thats awesome. I just got my plane today

Posthole,
I wasn;t sure if it was or not. I dont think it is, but I am just a newbie. But, if you think about it, that little button is a pain. I personally have not had to hold one down yet (maybe in the future) but for $225 you would think it would have some of the higher end features..

My Futaba 4VF had the pushbutton, I simply replaced with a spring loaded bat handle toggle, purchased at the local electronic outlet. Fit in the same hole, my instructors though it was the cat's rear end!!

My instructor doesn't use a trainer button at all and no, he doesn't have to pass the tx back and forth, so the pass-the-box time lag isn't a problem. So he can teach anyone with any type of mode 2 transmitter who might come along.

After reading this thread and personal experience, I can understand why my instructor has had such a hard time trying to share his method with others: http://mbz.portage.net/cgi-bin/yabb/...40010;start=30

nascarjoe

I've read of this "training method" on a couple of occassions. No one EVER describes it though. Is it THAT secretive? If it's so impressive, why doesn't he, or his students ever talk about HOW it's done?
Dennis-

By the way. My understanding of the trainer button/switch issue is that Futaba started using the buttons, but got so many complaints, they went back to switches.

He has described this technique in detail many times. Even though I just recently learned to fly via this technique, I even gave a spectator a few minutes on the sticks using this method. Although I don't consider myself an instructor yet, I still managed to keep my "student" from giving my trainer a dirt nap.

Here is the link for info on his teaching technique http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors/page3.shtml

BTW, he did a demonstration in front of AMA's Carl Maroney in 1998 in Muncie IN. One of Mr. Maroney's business acquaintances who has never had a RC transmitter in his hands before, flew mostly on his own and in 20 mph plus winds. From what I was told, AMA cannot "endorse" anyone's teaching methods, no matter how well it works. Oh well.

nascarjoe

>>>>>>>>>
BTW, he did a demonstration in front of AMA's Carl Maroney in 1998 in Muncie IN. One of Mr. Maroney's business acquaintances who has never had a RC transmitter in his hands before, flew mostly on his own and in 20 mph plus winds. From what I was told, AMA cannot "endorse" anyone's teaching methods, no matter how well it works. Oh well.

nascarjoe
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

However would it not be a good presentation if the "Model Aviation" staff did a feature article on the various methods of Instruction, which could define and compare the pluses and caution against the possible negatives of the different methods, techniques and styles?
Not holding my breath.

PS: I hate those buttons for training. They require my thumb to hold down with adequate pressure to make good contact. This is not good during approach / landing training.
The spring-loaded switch is far better, however the button is must be a marketing thing, because if from the engineers, it would be *square*. (;-))

What issue is that in? I would like to try to get a copy of it..

I think Futaba changed to the push button because guys were complaining about the toggle switches getting broken off. I have two old Conquest 6 PCMs with the toggle switches broken off and I don't even know when or how it happened.

The newer push button seemed a lot better... for about a minute and a half!! I hate that thing, especially when the student can fly pretty well and I have to hold it for a long time. I would replace it with a switch from Radio Shack as N7OR said.

I just posted this on another thread in this forum:

"One thing to be aware of if you use the JR662 as the master. The button you refer to is tricky. It is hard to hold for any length of time and on mine, just a slight roll of the finger/thumb holding it down can revert control back to the student. My instructor and I used my 662 as a master during my training and we can attribute at least 3 instances where the instructor thought I had the plane, but his thumb had rolled a little bit and it was me that had the plane and didn't know it. One other problem, it is very difficult to hold the button down and keep the throttle semi-equal to the one on the slave. We got through my training and I love the radio, just be real CAREFUL using it as the master."

I now have an 8103 and will use it if and when I train someone. It has a spring loaded toggle switch that automatically returns the control back to the instructor if the switch is released. We can both attribute 1 of the 3 instances indicated above to a torque roll crash on landing due to the instructor being able to reset the throttle while his thumb was on the button. I seriously doubt that the JR662 cost would be affected much by a change in the design. As long as I have my 8103 the 662 will NEVER be used as a master for training.

They don't talk about it because they're busy flying...

Here's a picture showing the "Kinesthetic Instruction" method in use. The "Ragland Technique" is a mild variant of this teaching style. Click on the image to visit the website.

I've done a lot of instructing with the basic 4 channel Futabas with buttons. To me it isn't a big deal. Having a switch is nice because you can keep your left thumb at the ready but I haven't had any problems saving planes using the button-equipped radios.

Flyfalcons
Its not a question of saving planes. Its about the cramp I get in my hand from pushing the button so long. After the first five minutes of instruction the student flies most of the rest of the flight himself.

one thing about the BB system is that alot of instructors will grab control of the plane way too soon. the minute it gets a bit out of pattern they would take it and move it back.


last weekend I took someone up for his first time. I took him up, explained the controls while I flew the plane (to show him what does what and how) then gave him the sticks, I only saved it when he was about to cross the flight line or got below 1 mistake high.

by the end of the second flight he was doing rough figure eights over the field (I still had to tell him to pull back more and general couching) but he would go for several minutes before I would need to have him climb a bit or move him over or something.

the buddy box lets you take control immediately so you dont have to save it in a hurry, thus giving the student more stick time and the ability to save it on his own... one time he got a bit disoriented and asked for me to take it.. he was high up so I told him no, that he had plenty of room to recover, and he did.

I dont see the buddy box as something to keep the student out of trouble, I see it as something to let them get into trouble safely so they can learn to get out.

oh, and I like the switch better as you can hold it in a "relaxed" state while the student flys

I guess the more cramped the instructor's hand is a testament of the skill of the instructor.

My instructor never has such a problem (hand cramps) in fact, his hands are usually in his pockets or he has his arms folded and stands a few feet away from his students within ten minutes of their very first ever RC flying experience. After witnessing others teaching using either the pass-the-box or buddy-box and the RT,

It's funny when the engine runs out of fuel and the student instinctively tries to hand the tx to my instructor. You see, this instructor absolutely refuses to take the box and insists that the first time ever student land the plane. I've seen him do this many times and personally experienced the same when I was taking lessons from him. Amazing!

I cannot understand why it seems that no one else even shows any curiousity for such a amazingly productive teaching method.

I see where there is a lot of skepticism but he has offered and was repeatedly turned down, to not only demonstrate this method, but also to teach other instructors how to do it. Still can't figure that one out.

nascarjoe

Unstable, you are absolutely right. When I was learning 4 years ago, I was making very little progress over 6 weeks or so, because the instructor kept grabbing control of the plane as soon as it veered slightly off course. The Buddy Box made it too easy for him to take control too quickly. I couldn't learn anything.

One day, that instructor was busy and I went to one of the other guys, Bob. Bob apparently had a much higher threshold for pain (grin) and would allow me to get myself into trouble, but then he'd give me time to figure out how to recover. He'd only grab control if I got really, really low. It was only after that one session with Bob that I managed to solo the next day.

Thanks, Bob.

If you have a soldering gun and a screw driver you can easily replace the bush button switch with a toggle switch available from Radio Shack. Its a matter of preference as to which one is best.

I have been teaching with both the button and the toggle for years. The lower end radios tend to use a button for what ever reason. I find both easy to use. Hold the transmitter so it works for you. You don't have to hold it so your hand gets cramped. if that is happening, change your grip. If you are just standing there holding the button so he can fly, get him down low doing touch and goes so you can turn him loose. Don't stand there with him on the buddy box for 6 months watching him fly, make him work toward the goal of solo every flight doing specific maneuvers so he learns faster. The goal is to get them off the box so your hands can be on your transmitter flying your planes. Then you can have fun flying together. Both switches serve the purpose.

I ussually fly the whole flight. (takeoff's and landings) so my instructor gets (instructor finger) thats when he calls it when his finger hurts and has to fly thr plane for a little bit too give his finger a rest.