I keep getting all kinds of responses from my club, so maybe I'm not asking questions right.

I asked about how to learn to use rudder. I was told to fly the plane without using ailerons, to use rudder and elevator to start and finish turns. I was also told to do stall turns, and maybe some knife edges (when they saw me doing them anyway =) Then one of the head instructors said he doesn't really use rudder to fly, only for 3D. He said he doesn't use it at all to turn, and doesn't even really use it to land, just plans out his path when flying in the wind.

Then people were talking about using the rudder 'to kick the tail around' during a turn, instead of letting it drop. But this is contrary to what I heard about initiating turns with the rudder, and using elevator and ailerons to keep altitude and proper pitch.

Then, get this...they told me I'm too new to be worrying about rudder anyway, and that I should just be flying and having fun and learning the (new) plane and not thinking about rudder. Morally, I can't do that - it's wrong!!! (Right???)

So what the hay should I be doing? Initiating turns with rudder, and using the other controls to keep the plane at constant altitude and a nice 30 degree bank?

I'm so confused!

Everyone is different. Some will say that you NEED to use your rudder while others will tell you that you don't need to ever use it.

Let's face it - there are some planes that don't even HAVE a rudder - so that's proof that you don't NEED one.

For just flying around, I RARELY use rudder. I use it mostly for aerobatics, although truthfully, now that I use it a lot more than I used to, I do find myself making minor rudder corrections on landings.

So don't worry about using it to coordinate your turns - MOST model airplanes are too small to suffer from adverse yaw (Which is what the rudder corrects in a turn)

I agree with some of the guys at your field - Have fun flying. Play with the rudder, and get the feel for what effect it has on the flight path. But don't feel that you NEED to learn how to use it "Properly".

While using rudder as a newbie isn't really necessary, it is a skill that will make you a better pilot in the future. If you have no problem flying a plane, and are at the point where everything is fairly natural, then by all means start using it. However, if you are still learning, then it can be a problem to 'throw something else into the mix'.

I use rudder all the time. I use it to help coordinate turns on some planes (helps keep the tail level in banks). I also use it to straighten out uplines and vertical flight. When you get good with it, it also helps offset wind, thermals, and the other things that don't help your plane fly straight.

I've been flying the better part of 6 years, but don't recall really using the rudder until after my 1st year. When I did start using it, I practiced side slipping and crabbing into the wind. That was very helpful in the rudder learning curve. Throw in some rudder, and try to keep the plane level by adding opposite aileron. Get good with the rudder, and pretty soon it becomes second nature - you won't even have to tell your hands to do it.

Rudder input varies greatly from plane to plane. A trainer needs almost zero rudder, whereas an Extra might need rudder input all the time.

When I learnt to fly only had Elevator and Rudder. Then after about 12 months of flying moved on to Alerons as well.(Had to build your own aircraft back then no ARF's) It helped me when I went into aerobatics and pattern flying. Today I use the rudder very little, just to help with final aproach and ground control.

Cheers

I use it mainly for take-off's, aerobatics and minor corrections when landing. Every now and then I will flat turn using the rudder and a little opposite aileron just for the heck of it. It also depends on the airplane.

The main thing is just to be able to control the plane confidently and make it go exactly where you want & do whatever you want.

I should've added that about 3 or 4 years ago, I finally figured out how to flat spin. It was with the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1201120/tm.htm]Cor-Star 60 v 2.0[/link] (my own coroplast copy design of the popular SIG 4*). I did 28 flat spin rotations with it one day. It was just a tiny dot, way up there; but all I had to do was throw in full up elevator, full left rudder, and full right aileron, and it would eventually stall and spin. Duane Habets of the scale 502 Air Tractor fame was there to count it with me. Since then, I set up almost all my planes (not the scale ones) to flat spin. Flat spinning really gave me a reason to get to know and love the rudder.

Not to mention the CG benefits flat spininng reveals.

I guess my goal is to be 'a better pilot'. One thing I notice that I really don't like is the tail sagging through a turn, so I want to use rudder to correct it, which I guess would mean using rudder than using opposite aileron. Also I landed yesterday, and I realized that I held rudder the during the entire approach to combat the cross wind; that felt like a great accomplishment to me.

I'm definitely comfortable flying with just the right stick, and am trying to keep myself challenged by using the left stick, too, since I thought you were supposed to. I'm actually amazed that people with lots of stick time are telling me they don't use much, if any, rudder. I don't know why though.

I am very interested in pattern flying, or at least know I will be interested in pattern flying when I'm ready. If pattern pilots use rudder to coordinate turns, then that's what I'd like to do.

I guess I'll try flying without using ailerons since there are planes that don't use ailerons, then I'll switch to flying without a rudder, since there are planes that don't use rudder, and I'll end up flying with my own style one day.

Rudder and reverse aileron FTW! on landing. Keeps ya level in a not so perfect wind. I rarely use rudder in the air unless I want a straight pass over the runway instead of the slight drift. And rudder is cool to snap the plane around in a vertical and bring her headin right back towards the earth.

Pattern flying REQUIRES excellent rudder control. So you are a perfectionist, I'm betting; and you want that in your flying style too. What are you flying now? Like I mentioned earlier, trainers versus areobatic planes vary greatly with rudder input. It's great that you want to know the rudder so early in your Jedi career, young Skywalker; but I have to know the type of plane you are flying to give you an appropiate answer.

I AM your Father.

Sorry, got lost in the moment. And now I'm just being silly.

I am flying a Phoenix Dolphin, Obie Wan. Copy of a Four Star. Looks kinda like a pattern plane (and I stretch 'kinda'). Not enough rudder for 3D. Straight, wide-ish semi-symmetrical wings, a little dihedral, full length ailerons. Stab has no shape to it, just square. Flies pretty fast and tracks straight, is pretty light. Here's a pic...

And yeah, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and you're darn right I'm gonna fly that way! [>:] So I want to learn to use rudder like people do who pattern fly.

I don't have the best pics to show control surfaces, but I'm sure you get the picture.

And feel free to comment on my beautiful after-market landing gear I painstakingly installed on my second ARF

Luke, you will have to wait unitl the morning is nigh, for I have succumbed to the Force of Budwieser. Your gear relocation is that of an Admiral in the Empire. I commend you. But can you take that perfection and apply it to the rudder, young Jedi?

I can do anything I'm told/shown. Look forward to hearing some advice.

Man i stay away from the rudder now since today i was trying it out and ended up flying my plane into the ground full tilt. S**ty huh?

Hi
Learn to use the rudder properly. It particularly helps in cross winds and straightening the landings. Our flying club is really hot on getting to use rudder early and with confidence. I practise with all my planes ( all have ailerons ) rudder elevator flying very rewarding to get right try it.

Cymaz

Don't worry about rudder right now....just fly..I know you know the rudder is there..I also know you're going to use the rudder while in flight...thats ok....that's how you're going to learn rudder..don't worry about using rudder in every turn..after all alot of our full scale brothern don't use rudder in turns or have the authority greatly reduced depending on speed......
Have fun flying first..a good pratice is a flat turn..get high then gently put in some rudder..as the plane begins to roll counter with opposite ailerons and watch your aircraft skid around the turn..before you know it you'll be "kicking out" the crab on a crosswind landing....
A note of caution when I was newly solo'd rudder cost me a trip the repair table...I was "kicking out" the crab and went the wrong way with rudder....don't beat yourself up...have fun first

The only issue I run into with rudder is trying to do as close of a knife edge as I can with my semi-sym... high wing trainer. Of course it's not really a knife edge but when I lean on the rudder, sometimes the orientation still gets me, hence I fly high enough that if I put the plane down towards the ground, I have more than enough time to recover.

Let me put it this way. The rudder was created for a reason, and not only on aerobatic planes. If you learn to use it, you'll have that knowledge when it comes in handy. And yes, you can turn without it but I would say, since they use em in the bigger planes, if you want to fly scale as the full size planes do, you might want to know a thing or two about trying to coordinate your turns.(though I have to admit, sometimes in my MS Flight Simulator I don't use the rudder either and that's on full size aircraft, tee hee)

not all full scale planes use rudder all the time...when I was flying the full motion full scale 777 sim the instructor told me not to use rudder...the 727 doesn't use much rudder and when airspeed increases the rudder authority is decreased the MD88 and MD 90 the rudder travel is mechanically restricted with airspeed....
Now we have a gentleman that's worried that not using the rudder is morally wrong???????
Rudder will come to you..I wasn't taught rudder either, but I use it now when needed..not all the time, and not only in turns

I've been using rudder for quite a while for slow rolls / rolling circles but just ailerons for turning until recently as I've started doing more and more 3D like harriers etc which yyou want it for and inverted flat turns look lovely.
The only thing is whereas I don't have to think about orientation with ailerons now I do have to think about it with rudder so I've started using it for all turns so it then becomes second nature over a peiod of time BUT wished I started using it ages ago as I'd be there now and would make my 3D easier. I think generally the concensus is you don't ever HAVE to use rudder (except maybe on the ground) but if you do it makes you a better pilot in the long run.

There's really not much somebody that's sitting 1000 miles from you can do here. I would recommend getting a trusted instructor to show you proper technique.

Rudder is an important control surface because its the first control thats effective and the last to become ineffective in flight.

Why not practice using rudder about 3 mistakes high? Practice doing forward and side slipping. Take the airplane into a stall and keep the airplane level with rudder. Control any rolling with the rudder you'll see rudder is still quite effective even when stalled.

See what happens when you use rudder only. In military pilot training we would rudder roll the T-38 Talon, although normally except for aerobatic maneuvers, takeoffs and landings we seldom used rudder. It all depends upon the airplane. When I flew C-130's we used rudder just the same as when flying a light aircraft to coordinate turns. When we lost an engine the use of rudder became very important especially if it was outboard. Two engines out on one side depending upon the speed and aircraft weight would have the pilot using almost full rudder to maintain control and a straight flight path.

There are aerodynamic reasons why rudder is not used most of the time with swept wing aircraft. That being that in a turn the outboard wing becomes effectively longer aerodynamically decreasing adverse yaw.

Experiment using rudder! Take it up high so you can fly it out, learn the envelope or limitations of your airplane.

I had to do what Steve is saying to start learning rudder. I had one of the better instructors for my basic flight training plus I started with A 2 ch plane, rudder and elevator only. As soon as I went to A plane with ailerons and throttle I was no longer using the rudder?? I kept asking about it and got A number of different answers from him and different club members.
A couple of years later I discovered my basic instructor really didn't understand it either.
As luck would have it my advanced instructor was an IMAC pilot, then I learned how to use it and when.
Some of my big scale planes, bipes for the most part needed rudder input just to turn correctly for scale flight.
Today I don't think I could land without my rudder, well, I can but it's second nature for me to land using rudder, elevator and throttle only, I just keep the pane level with the ailerons.
Take your plane up and play with the rudder then seek out A good pattern pilot to help you understand it better.
Nathan said it right, too hard to teach from long distance and on A computer.

Gar. you will hear all kinds of things from those that cannot really understand the concept of your questions.

The rudder is a most important tool in any airplane. Steve S. states many good things about rudder. BTW, I instructed in that T-38 in '66-'68. It was a fun airplane. OTOH jetmech speaks of simulator time. HA! None of the sims. 737, 727, DC-8, or DC-10 that I was in, '68-'96, recognized rudder or they reacted wrongly to its use. However, the airplanes reacted to rudder use very well, as a good airplane will. Even slight rudder pressure could make the machine much more responsive to slight aileron touch, especially when flying low ceiling instrument approaches.
I well remember my 2 years in the C-123. HA! I treated that machine like a big flat wing 3-channel RC and it was very responsive. About 99% tried to use only ailerons and it wallowed like a hog in mud.

OK back to RC. You can fly RC forever and never use rudder except for ground steering and TO. You can really become a proficient pilot if you make that left hand NOT go to sleep once you break ground.
As others have stated get up high and PRACTICE whatever you can think of. Holding altitude, using rudder for steering, while being nose-high just before it breaks into a complete stall can teach you much. THINK about a crosswind where you are holding a bank into the wind, and using opposite rudder, downwind, to hold runway heading. Do maneuvers and remember which way is right and left with the left hand, correcting heading and slight banks with rudder.
As for turns, the only real need for rudder is during the roll-in and roll-out, however generally not a noticable thing, but good practice to keep that left hand in the loop. Mine forgets frequently!

Don't pay a lot of attention to the "experts." You go and find out what works For YOU. Have fun doing it.

edited: commas vice periods.

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate all the advice. I guess I'd just like to ask about slipping/side slipping - what exactly is it? Different from crabbing?

There's lots of interesting things above to work on; I'm pretty excited for the rain to stop falling and get some left stick time in this weekend

side slipping is crabbing. Same thing.

Rudder input noses the plane into the wind. Opposite aileron is fed in just enough to counter any rudder roll coupling, and to hold the upwind wing slightly down. This presents more of the plane to the oncoming airstream, slowing it, allowing it to sink, and prevents it from drifting sideways with respect to the ground in the crosswind.

Rudder is like the other surfaces. You don't just go out and "learn rudder" any more than you spend flights "learning elevator". Do the same thing as you have with your other control surfaces, see what it does and how you may be able to use it.

J

K, thanks.