hi
am jumping the gun as i hope to have my first flight with an instuctor this coming sat (went to the club today and they were great ), and understand that i will need 2 3 months on a high wing trainer,but are low wing planes that hard to fly? it seems that most kick to the left on take off, you have to throttle up gently, flair on landing ect. Having been interested in aicraft for 15 years and flying sims on the pc for 3 years , i grasp the basics of flightand what all the controls do, the main thing i am worried about is the radio, as i have never used one, once you get that down pat wouldnt it be possible to buddy box on a scale low wing or am i missing something?
your thoughts will give me something to ponder (and no i will not 2nd guess my instuctor what he says goes)

No, low wingers aren't that hard to fly. They won't try to self-correct as much as a high wing trainer, but once you get to the point of knowing what you want the plane to do, you will enjoy the increased maneuverability of a low wing plane. I advise my students that when they get their second plane to spend a flight or two on the buddy box until they feel comfortable with their new plane.

Naw, just fly it upside down.

FlyFalcon's correct saying that low wing AC aren't as self-correcting as a high wing AC. It's just something you'll get used to and will be readily noticeable on your first flights. My 2nd plane was a mid wing (Sig MidStar) which I also built as a taildragger. I noticed right off the bat that you have to fly it out of the turn as well as it tended to float longer on ground effect while landing. The other thing I appreciated was, being a taildragger - it taught me (as well as introduced me) to the use and respect of the rudder. Yes, a low wing taildragger will tend to turn left during throttle up and learning to counter it with rudder made it all the more rewarding when I finally mastered it. "IF" you go with a low wing and taildragger, be sure that the main landing gear (wheels) are toed in slightly. If they are equal or toed out, take-off's will be difficult and squirrely.

Ted

Chelseafc,
I take it that you haven't bought a trainer yet, and are hoping to learn on your "second" plane. Yes?

I certainly think it can be done, just might take a bit longer. Ask your instructor if he'd be willing to teach you using one, and go for it.

I would amend that by saying, NOT a scale plane. Scale aircraft tend to have higher wing loading and less forgiving flight characteristics. Go with a low wing "sport" plane like a 4 * 40 (4 star 40), or a Super Sportster.

My opinion of course.
Dennis-

the club has a high wing trainer, i hope to be able to learn on that , i own a bf109 40scale that i am building, and have just bought a hitec eclipse 7 radio, it just gonna be bloody hard to tell the wife that i need another plane or maybe two!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, get use to that, because you're going to need a LOT more than Two more planes!

If the club will let you learn on the club trainer, Great! But the BF109 might be a handful even as a second plane. Who makes the kit? Is it advertised as a "sport scale" plane? If so, it'll be a bit easier to fly than something billed as true scale.

Be sure to build some washout into the wings, whether the plans call for it or not. And have an experienced flyer take the first flight o get it trimmed out. He can also give you some pointers on it's flight characteristics.
Good Luck!
Dennis-

thx for your advice dennis, i think i'll have to bite the bullet and buy a low wing sport for my second plane, better than taking a chance with something ive put so much time ( money ) into, how do i go about building washout into the wings? have seen the term used on the forum but dont fully understand its meaning

In simple terms, washout is the amount of twist built into the wing whereas the outboard trailing edge is slightly higher than that of the inboard trailing edge and is symmetrical both sides. The effect of washout allows the outboard tips of the wings to stall [last] after the inboard portion has already done so. This reduces the stall speed thus helps for slower landing speeds along with aiding stability.

To build-in washout, after framing out the entire wing (ie: ribs, spars, bottom sheeting, etc.) up to the point of installing the top sheeting, take a piece of 1/4" stock (or whatever the plans call for) and shim the outbaord "aft" corner of the wing and securely pin it down to the building board in this configuration. By then adding the top leading/trailing edge sheeting, this will complete the wing structure and having installed the final sheeting with washout already induced, that is how the wing will retain the twist.

And having more than just one plane is a must in this hobby! If one is down for repairs or maintenance, you still have another one to fly!

Ted

it seems that most kick to the left on take off,

All planes do this. It is just more noticeable in a "tail dragger". The tricycle gear masks this on the ground. It is noticeable once the plane lifts off the ground. Right rudder is needed until the plane is at the speed the plane is trimmed to fly. Right thrust is normally built into the engine to diminish this. It is a reaction to the engine tork and "P" effect which is the slipstream of air swirling around the fuselage. To see how this effects the plane in flight (at a safe altitude) reduce the power and let the plane slow down. Then apply full throttle and watch the plane "tork" to the left.

If you can view the first video by Dave Patrick called "Wringing it Out" it has a really good description of this. As you pull into a loop you will also normally need some right rudder. When pushing into an outside loop you will need left rudder.

EXCAP232

Low wing models are not that much harder to fly. What everyone is trying to tell you is that you really need to learn the basics first. Even with sim time on a PC it is not like the real thing when you get a transmitter in your hands for the first time. Most instructors, myself included, won't teach with a low wing. Do yourself a favor and save that 109 as a second plane and learn to fly a trainer first.

One minor correction: 'P Factor' is not the slipstream of swirling air.

'P Factor' is an effect of angle of attack on the propellor blades that causes the right side of the propellor "disk" to produce more thrust than the left.

Take a close look at the propellor of your airplane on the ground (if you have a tricycle gear, tilt it back like a taildragger when you look). Now position the prop so that the blades are horizontal to the ground. Imagine the plane moving forward at that angle (as if starting a takeoff roll). Compare the pitch of the blade on the left side of the plane with the one on the right. You'll notice that the blade on the left is almost perpendicular to the ground and would produce little thrust. The right blade, on the other hand, has a very large pitch, and would produce far more thrust than the right.

With greater thrust on the right side than the left, the plane will tend to pull left.

Note that the swirling air over the fuse is also significant, and will also cause the plane to yaw to the left as it hits the vertical stabilizer. Also, engine torque will tend to cause the airplane to roll to the left.

The end result of this left pull is that you need right rudder to compensate. Any single engine prop plane will pull one way or the other (planes with an engine that turns "the other way", will pull to the right and need left rudder to compensate.)

Of these 3 forces, 'P Factor' is the one that is far more prevalent on tail draggers than tricycles.

I hope that this makes sense,
-Wade

newtons law...." every action has an equal and oppisite reaction..
P-Factor is an aerodynamic effect that causes propellor-driven planes to yaw when they are flown at high power and low speed (takeoff and climbout, for example.)
At low speeds, the plane flies at a substantial angle of attack, and so the airflow is not parallel to the plane's axis. Relative to the plane, the airflow is directed several degrees upwards. Now the prop axis is normally parallel to the plane's axis. As the prop rotates, on one side the blades are travelling upwards and on the other side they are travelling downwards. (On most planes, the prop turns to the right, as seen from behind,
The upwards angle of the airflow causes the downward (left) side of the prop to have a greater airspeed and angle of attack than the upward (right) side. So the downward (left) side of the prop generates more thrust. Pull harder on the right side of the plane than on the left and the plane will yaw to the left.

This is one of the reasons why most planes need a certain amount of left rudder to keep them straight during takeoff and climbout

thx for you help guys
am buying trainer this week , and more importantly am opening second bank account with the statements sent to work! if you couldnt **** em they would be ten high at the tip

thx to all again

chelseafc:

As you build your RC plane collection, try to choose planes that have different flight characteristics. That way you get a variety. My first plane was a SuperStar 40 trainer. My next was a Tiger 2, an excellent low wing plane that I highly recommend as your second plane. It has acrobatic capability and yet can slow down well for landing and is extremely stable in the air. It has trycycle gear so you don't get the right rudder correction that you need to use with a tail dragger. I have a funfly as my third plane, and I just finished my Supersportster, which everyone in my club says I will like the best of all.

My best advice to give you is after learning on a trainer, fly your second low wing plane often. Really wring it out and learn what it will do. Get very comfortable with it and learn as much aerobatic flying as you can. Once you get familiar with that plane then fly something different and you will find that what you learned on your second plane will help you with all the others. The worst thing is to bounce around to alot of planes and never learn to fly one well.

By the way, i loved my visit to Melbourne and drive along the Great Ocean Road past the Apostles. You live in a beautiful area of Australia!!



good luck,

Terry

Engine Tork, wasn't he one of the Monkees?

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

GraupnerFan had everything correct right up to the end. On most planes the prop turns to the right, so the descending blade in on the right side and it creating more thrust/lift than the left side. Therefore, on an engine that rotates to the right, right rudder will be needed on takeoff and climbout.